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Firearms and Shooting

Posted by Bugout Bill 
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Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2016 05:36AM
Any Cal, I'm not sure what it is you are recording above and beyond what just a shot timer shows you.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2016 05:55AM
Here's the latest incarnation of my target stand (mine and my shooting buddy's.)



All Dirty Bird splatter targets and two spud pole targets. I spray paint the spuds with Krylon florescent green and orange paint to contrast with our sights. It isn't necessary, but it helps a bit.

If you go shooting out in the boondocks, or on your own property, I highly recommend the spud pole targets. Potatoes are cheap, biodegradable and they EXPLODE when you hit them. They have become my favorite targets.

The spud pole targets are just heavy duty garden dowels that I drove nails through on a couple of sides. They look like some kind of medieval weapons without the spuds on them.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2016 06:16AM
Chum, just a make shift shot timer. Didn't want to spend the cash just to measure a few things. Figured it is also cool for others, as they don't have to have one to record times. Be good for data gathering, or blind entry to online match.

Will have to try the spuds!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 06:16AM by Any Cal..
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2016 11:19PM
I downloaded a shot timer app, but at the range with guns going off all around it was not very useful.

I was surprised to see the 10mm 16" only picked up ~ 200fps vs the G20. I expected more velocity akin to the gain from .357.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2016 11:59PM
Chad: That could still be enough to get a hollowpoint to over-expand and fail. 200FPS can still affect things.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2016 01:07AM
Chad, if you hand load, you can get significantly higher velocities by using a slower burning powder, and it would also be cheaper than buying boxes of 10mm.

Bill, what do you mean by a hollow point that over expands and fails?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2016 01:14AM
Ryan: The jacket separates and the bullet basically turns itself inside out, leading to drastically reduced penetration. A .40 cal Speer Gold Dot, for example, might penetrate 16-18 in of ballistic gel and hold itself together well. The identical bullet loaded hot in a 10mm may only wind up penetrating 8 inches of gelatin.

That is another issue with the 10mm, bullets optimized for it are kind of hard to come by.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2016 02:01AM
I see your point about the penetration depth, but I actually don't see it as a failure in certain circumstances. For example, if you're shooting a person and the bullet fragments/expands so much that it doesn't come out of the other side of the person, you likely just did a huge amount of damage. At least in the above case of a high-velocity .40 cal. The bullet transferred all of its energy to the target, the person now has innumerable pieces of lead and copper strewn about their chest cavity (extremely difficult to clean up from a surgeon's perspective), and it will likely obliterate whatever organs are near where it hit. This is all good if you have a clear shot at vital areas like the upper torso, head, and neck; it would likely be a one-shot kill.

Similarly with deer hunting, there are basically two different ways (as I see it) to optimize the round you're using to kill the animal. The first is to use a projectile that's traveling fast enough, or is built to, expand/fragment very quickly, similarly to the way I described above. With a broadside shot that is well-placed, deer will often drop in their tracks when they are shot in this way. I have field dressed deer that were shot broadside with this kind of projectile and there is often not much left of the lungs or heart. In some cases I couldn't even identify the lungs, they were seemingly gone. A .243 Winchester with a 100 grain soft point is something that will generally accomplish that kind of desired outcome. The downside to using a round like that is that if you shoot at angles where more penetration is required, where you may hit heavy bones, or simply larger and heavier deer, it's not the most reliable way to kill the deer. So, conversely, you can pick something like the .308 Winchester with a 150 grain soft point. This will not expand/fragment nearly as dramatically as the .243, and instead will have enough weight to carry farther through the animal and whatever bone it encounters. If you have good shot placement, the .308 will still kill the deer, though it is usually a slower death and the animal runs farther. It kills slower in certain circumstances than a .243 (not counting a CNS hit, which are usually a shamefully slow death for the deer, not a good outcome.) But it is more reliable all-around, and assures that if the bullet is put into the vital organs of the animal it will die fairly quickly, usually with two holes for more blood to follow, regardless of shot angle or bone hit.

As far as defensive use against people, I think the same two points apply. Personally I think that it's not as easy of a choice with a defensive handgun because caliber can play a major role. For instance, in my .38 I just carry 150 grain hardened wadcutters so I don't need to worry about anything but shot placement, because hollow points in a .38 are just not as consistent as I'd like and they also tend to be lighter in weight, reducing penetration. If I were to use my .357 however, I would definitely choose a 125 grain hollow point and push it as fast as possible, the goal being similar to what I outlined above with the .40 caliber, since a hit anywhere on the upper body is going to be a kill shot.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2016 02:25AM
All the shot timer apps I have tried stank. So far, the Surefire app shows the most promise, but I think it is iOS only. Tried all the Android ones, including a paid one, I think.

The 10mm can't be loaded w/ slower powder, there is no room. The slower powders require a higher volume, like Magnum sized case. Smaller case, lower velocity even w/ optimum powders (which are faster/less bulky than optimum for larger case)

Hollowpoints are typically optimized for .40, as was mentioned. Pretty much leaves you with XTPs or custom hardcast for optimum loadings. Both of those likely OK with long barrel ballistics. Hollowpoints also reduce room in case for propellant=lower velocity. Properly designed hardcast impact benefits from added speed, but it makes design more critical. Too fast for the design and it tumbles, which is less than optimum in most cases. For lighter critters probably matters much less, becomes more important as you go up in size.

There is no 'massive damage' from a handgun, it is shooting a projectile at 1/3 or less speed than .308 based case. Over expansion simply means under penetration, as you are effectively shooting a super low sectional density bullet once it expands. Expansion is also using energy that could have been used in better ways. How many ft/lbs does it take to peel a hollowpoint back on itself and rip a few petals off?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2016 02:42AM
Ryan: Terminal ballistics and handgun rounds has never really reached any concrete conclusions beyond shot placement being key.

I agree entirely regarding high velocity rifle rounds, they work. For anti-personnel (or smaller game) purposes, I think lighter is usually better in things like .243 and .308. Hell, 55 gr 5.56 NATO still does the job well provided it has the velocity to yaw.

With handguns, however, it hasn't been proven that high velocities actually produce the remote wounding effects seen from rifle round. The only reason why I prefer hollowpoints is the fact that they will limit over-penetration and put a bigger hole into a target. Does velocity help? Sure. Is it as vital as some make it out to be? No idea. What I do know is that 9mm 115 gr +P+, 9mm 124 gr +P, and .40 180 gr rounds have all put a lot of ner'do wells in the dirt, so I will use those.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2016 02:53AM
Quote
Any Cal.
The 10mm can't be loaded w/ slower powder, there is no room. The slower powders require a higher volume, like Magnum sized case. Smaller case, lower velocity even w/ optimum powders (which are faster/less bulky than optimum for larger case)

Why couldn't you use something like H110? If you're using a pistol length barrel it makes no sense, but I don't see why it wouldn't work out of a 16" barrel unless the case capacity is so low that it's not going to gain you anything. But people use H110 all the time in .357 magnum and the case capacity of the 10mm is 24 grains of water vs 27 for the .357. I don't see why it wouldn't work.


Quote
Any Cal.
There is no 'massive damage' from a handgun, it is shooting a projectile at 1/3 or less speed than .308 based case.

Compared to the damage done by a .308, sure. But to say that a handgun can't do massive damage (I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that phrase) seems a bit odd. Clearly the amount of damage varies widely between the caliber and projectile itself but there are handgun rounds that will do more damage than some rifle rounds, so I don't know what you're saying here.



Quote
Any Cal.
Over expansion simply means under penetration, as you are effectively shooting a super low sectional density bullet once it expands.

Well obviously you will lose penetration when you get more expansion (in the same bullet) but that's not the only thing that happens and it certainly doesn't mean the bullet won't kill what you shot with it. What point are you trying to make?


Quote
Any Cal.
Expansion is also using energy that could have been used in better ways. How many ft/lbs does it take to peel a hollowpoint back on itself and rip a few petals off?

Better ways being what, exactly? And I could just be reading the post incorrectly but peeling a bullet open and sending pieces of the jacket and core flying through the animal is going to do significant damage. The whole point of a hollow point is to increase fluid drag, thereby doing more damage by displacing more tissue. This is absolutely not wasted energy unless you only want maximum penetration.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2016 02:59AM
I posted this before but here's a look at how velocity can drastically change the performance of a projectile in a handgun, note the difference between the two Speer bullets:





There is a graph in this video that demonstrates that there is a large difference in kinetic energy transfer that is based entirely on velocity and expansion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2016 03:09AM by Ryan Nafe.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2016 07:05AM
Once you put a bullet in the case, the available capacity is quite small in the 10mm. You can't get enough H110 in the case even for a proper burn, let alone additional performance. Consider, .357 or .44 Mag loads of H110 are compressed to get enough powder in them. They are also about .3" longer. That means that the 10mm will have a powder column .3" too short to get ballistics like a .400 Mag. It may work to a small extent with 135g loads, but heavy bullets are a no go. It is actually worse than that, because the 10mm doesn't have the ability to run the longer OAL that most rimmed Magnum rounds do, and auto rounds tend to leave more weight inside the case due to nose shape.

As far as massive damage and petals peeling, my point was that using a light or lightly constructed bullet in a handgun is not analogous to doing so in a rifle. There is never hydrostatic damage like a rifle has, and the shrapnel typically hinders bullet performance. A bullets ability to track straight and penetrate with power is important. Shrapnel tends to cause issues for both of those. Because of this, it is less likely that a bullet that self destructs will kill what you shoot. The bigger the animal, the bigger the issue.

When I say that petals peeling is wasted energy, I mean specifically the force required to physically deform the bullet. If you only have a few hundred ft/lbs, you don't want to waste any of them on unneeded work- like bending the petal from 90* sideways to pointing backwards, or shedding pieces. You want everything possible to drive the bullet forward. Really, the best possible scenario would be shooting a pre-expanded bullet- most efficient with power and the possibility of a proper nose shape for penetration. Think hardcast 12g slug. Obviously, 'best' is limited by recoil and aerodynamics.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2016 11:41PM
Quote
Any Cal.
Once you put a bullet in the case, the available capacity is quite small in the 10mm. You can't get enough H110 in the case even for a proper burn, let alone additional performance. Consider, .357 or .44 Mag loads of H110 are compressed to get enough powder in them. They are also about .3" longer. That means that the 10mm will have a powder column .3" too short to get ballistics like a .400 Mag. It may work to a small extent with 135g loads, but heavy bullets are a no go. It is actually worse than that, because the 10mm doesn't have the ability to run the longer OAL that most rimmed Magnum rounds do, and auto rounds tend to leave more weight inside the case due to nose shape.

That seems reasonable, I'll concede that point. Are there some other relatively slow-burning powders that would improve the performance over a load designed specifically for handgun barrels? I would think that there are but I'm not familiar with them.

Quote
Any Cal.
... As far as massive damage and petals peeling, my point was that using a light or lightly constructed bullet in a handgun is not analogous to doing so in a rifle. There is never hydrostatic damage like a rifle has, and the shrapnel typically hinders bullet performance...

Here I wasn't saying that they (rifle & pistol projectiles) have the exact same terminal ballistics properties, but I would (have been) argue that they're definitely analogous. They're demonstrably similar in many ways, the only strong difference I see is the hydrostatic shock, which I wasn't arguing for in the first place. Perhaps I made my argument clumsily though. I mean just shoot a light-for-caliber hollow point at high velocity and then shoot a heavy-for-caliber flat point fmj and compare the results. The same basic differences can easily be seen in rifles as well.

Quote
Any Cal.
... If you only have a few hundred ft/lbs, you don't want to waste any of them on unneeded work- like bending the petal from 90* sideways to pointing backwards, or shedding pieces. You want everything possible to drive the bullet forward...

That's only true if your biggest concern is depth of penetration. I understood what you were saying, I just don't think it's true all the time. In fact it's clearly not true at all in many scenarios. I basically made the case for this point in my first post on the subject.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 27, 2016 12:24PM
Awesome target stand Chum.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 27, 2016 06:49PM
Quote
chad234
Awesome target stand Chum.

Thanks Chad.

I'm trying to post this with my phone, here goes...

This is my very first, virgin, 15 rounds through my new Walther Q5 Match. 9 yards, decent speed tempo...




Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 27, 2016 10:55PM
Oh heck yes. Congrats I must have missed that you picked it up. Details?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 27, 2016 11:37PM
Chum: One of those "more accurate than you" guns.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 28, 2016 12:23AM
You mean precise.

Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 28, 2016 02:15AM
Quote
Bugout Bill
Chum: One of those "more accurate than you" guns.

Most likely. I'm not that great a shot.



Quote
chad234
Oh heck yes. Congrats I must have missed that you picked it up. Details?

This is the first time I have mentioned it. I wanted to get more range time before I gave a report, but I'll give you what I have so far.



Walther Q5 Match: Initial Thoughts

I have put about 600 rounds through it. It had two failures to feeds. One in the second magazine I ran and one in the third. I believe it had something to do with the extractor being too sharp somewhere, as it also put a lot of brass shavings into the gun.

I haven't had any other failures to feed, or any other issues other than those two. Also, the brass shavings have started to lessen considerably.

Everything on this gun feels very smooth, most notably the trigger. The reset on the trigger is ridiculously short. I practiced trying to fire without letting the trigger out completely but I am not used to doing that. I can fire this gun faster than anything else I own, however I can fire my friends S&W Victory .22 a little faster than the Walther Q5. That may change the more I practice. I do like the trigger better than a Glock's and probably better than my Sig p220, but I need to shoot them back to back to be sure.

So far, I am a fan of the oversized magazine release and slide release. Both are intuitive, slick, easy to use and have not been in the way.

The magazines seem to be very high quality. They load easy by hand. They seem very strong and slick. They fall free every time.

I really like the sights, adjustable and all black in the back, red fiber optic in the front. This gun is made to take a red dot, and it comes with three plates that take various red dot platforms. Despite this, I didn't buy the gun for this reason. I bought it as a range gun, trail gun and home defense gun. I plan to put a Streamlight TLR-2 (laser/light combo) on it, which to my way of thinking removes the need for a red dot, as both the red dot and the laser give you the ability to focus on the target and sight, simultaneously, with both eyes open. The laser has the added benefits of not having to line it up with your eyes, and being able to track a moving target better. If at some point I do decide to get a red dot, I won't have to have my slide milled out. If I do change sights in any way, I will get a combo fiber-optic/tritium front sight. I do like the fiber optic front sight it comes with, and for target shooting I prefer the blacked out back sight.

The handle is the best I have on any gun. It is ergonomic, comfortable and has just the right amount of grippiness to it. It has three backstrap options. I spent a lot of time switching back and forth between these to see which I preferred. The largest is too big. I shot about equally well with the medium and the small. In the end I decided to leave the medium on as it seemed to fill my hand a little better. I might try swapping it out to the smaller one down the road, just to experiment further. The Walther Q5 handle is exactly the same as all of the Walther PPQ line. I like it considerably more than any Glock I have handled.

I was concerned about recoil (you know me and recoil spinning smiley sticking its tongue out ), as I had read some reports of the PPQ being more snappy than G19. Maybe the PPQ is more snappy than the G19, but the Q5 isn't snappy at all. The recoil isn't an issue. Yes, it does have more kick than my G42 (.380) but that isn't saying much. The recoil is very soft, and there isn't any part of my hand that is annoyed by it. I have shot 115grain, 124grain and 147grain bullets out of this gun. My friend mixed up a magazine to see if I could tell the difference from one grain to another. I couldn't. I had to guess on all shots and I basically got them all wrong. I did notice, after shooting back-to-back magazines of the various ammo types, that the Winchester White Box HP 147grain bullets seemed the most accurate.

I wanted to get a high capacity 9mm. As much as I prefer the aesthetics of an all steel gun, I plan to use this as an all purpose gun, which means trail hiking. Polymer, striker-fired, guns just have an advantage here. As long as the recoil isn't bad, the lighter the better imo. I strongly considered the G34. I wanted the longer sight radius. I just don't see any advantage the Glock has on the Walther, at least without using aftermarket parts, and with the Walther I don't see the need for aftermarket parts (not including the front sight and the TLR-2 which I would put on either gun.)

I'll report more after a few more shooting expeditions.

Lot's of goodness. 3 magazines, 3 red dot plates, 3 backstraps, nice case.


First 15 shots at 9 yards, not fast but not slow.


Kinda space age looking with the milled out slide. The cat is completely unimpressed. She is far more lethal.



Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2016 02:37AM by Chum.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 28, 2016 03:46AM
The grip on those looks like it could be comfy. Seems to be about the most ergonomic of any around.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 28, 2016 03:58AM
Quote
Any Cal.
The grip on those looks like it could be comfy. Seems to be about the most ergonomic of any around.

I picked up a Walther PPQ in the store. The handle was what prompted me to look into them further. It is a polymer handle but the backstrap is a hard rubber. Anyway, the ergos seem about perfect.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 28, 2016 05:27PM
That is just a super fine choice, especially for the uses you outline. And it sure shows in your results.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 06, 2016 04:15AM
Never mind, vids quality stank.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2016 04:16AM by Any Cal..
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 06, 2016 03:33PM
You nailed the description with Space Age, it looks like a gun Buck Rogers would carry and seems to shoot like a laser.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 07, 2016 12:39AM
Quote
chad234
You nailed the description with Space Age, it looks like a gun Buck Rogers would carry and seems to shoot like a laser.

I think it is probably the easiest gun, I own, to shoot well (combination of speed and accuracy) that isn't a .22lr. I think my Ruger Super Blackhawk is a more precise gun. I think if I put the Blackhawk and the Q5 in a ransom rest the Blackhawk would print better groups.

This gun is not without issues however. I had the two initial failure to feeds, along with a lot of brass shavings inside the gun. Although the shavings have lessened significantly it still gets a little bit of brass after shooting.

I have a love/hate relationship with the trigger. It does have more creep than I would prefer. Compared to the other striker fired guns I have shot, it has the best trigger. Still, I'm getting picky and I want a perfect trigger.

My friend and I went to the shooting range and shot the following guns back to back...

- Walther Q5
- Glock 34
- Glock 17
- S&W M&P 9L Pro SeriesĀ® C.O.R.E. with a Delta Point red dot
- CZ 75 B
- CZ 75 SP-01

I will say that all of these guns did well, and the differences in group size and speed wasn't that far apart. Both of us agreed that the Walther Q5 was the overall winner. We both printed our tightest groups with the Q5 and the Q5 was noticeably the most comfortable of the guns to shoot. Here's how we ranked the guns...

In order of accuracy...
- Walther
- Glock 34
- CZ 75 SP-01
- Glock 17
- S&W
- CZ 75 B

In order of comfort to shoot...
- Walther
- CZ 75 SP-01
- Glock 34
- S&W
- Glock 17
- CZ 75 B

The one area the CZ 75 SP-01 beat out the Walther Q5 was in handling recoil. I could shoot the CZ SP-01 faster, while retaining a reasonable group, than the Walther Q5, but again it was close. My friend didn't care for the CZ SP-01 for one reason... it was too heavy. He just wouldn't ever carry such a heavy gun. While I might carry it in certain situations, I had to agree that it was heavier than I would prefer. That weight certainly helped it to soak up recoil however.

One more MAJOR issue with the Walther Q5. It had another jam, and this one was a doozy. I literally could not get the bullet out of the gun. I made a video on it and I sent the video to Walther. Walther has been very slow to respond, and I feel that they are jerking me around. We'll see. I hope they offer to take the gun and fix it, but so far I get one email reply from them a day, and they aren't very helpful.






Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 07, 2016 02:25AM
Chum: That looks like a malfunction from hell. Do you know any gunsmiths you could call? Could you give any more info on what exactly the jam is?

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 07, 2016 02:36AM
Quote
Bugout Bill
Chum: That looks like a malfunction from hell. Do you know any gunsmiths you could call? Could you give any more info on what exactly the jam is?

I should have clarified. I have since cleared the round from the chamber. It was a bitch to get out. Waiting to hear from Walther now.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 07, 2016 02:38AM
Looks like the bullet is jammed into the lands. Cartridge might have been overly long or oversized diameter. It is tying the slide and barrel together, and being oversized, is not letting the breech come all the way to the barrel. Walther probably doesn't care because it is an ammo malf.

-edit- hadnt seen your post already. How abut a pic of the bullet? Might tell the tale.

How did you fix it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2016 02:39AM by Any Cal..
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 07, 2016 02:57AM
How'd you clear it? Smack it into battery and fire?

So I got a new (old) gun on impulse, and it surprises me I did. It is in a caliber I have absolutely no interest in. But... but I watched this video this morning:
[youtu.be]

And minutes later stumbled inside trade deal for a spare .22 rifle I had.

So I came home with a Beretta 950 Jetfire in .25. A round I've always sneered at with disdain and considered all but useless.

It is a cool, we'll built little gun. It is 60 years old, and right and jewel like precise in its build quality. Compared to my often carried LCP:







I doubt this one will see much carry time given the diminutive round, compared to the .380 LCap in near the same size and weight, well almost.

Anyone have any trigger time on one of the little gems? Am I too dismissive of the impotent .25?