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Firearms and Shooting

Posted by Bugout Bill 
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 10, 2019 10:55AM
Quote
Chum
I will contend that there is a loss of speed when shooting multiple rounds with more power. The meaningful part is debatable.

Yeah, I mean if I time myself shooting 10 rounds of full-power .40 and 10 rounds of standard 9mm from an identical gun and end up taking a second or two longer to shoot the .40, I don’t really see the problem with that. That’s what I’m getting at, that those small differences in speed and no difference at all in accuracy are not nearly enough for me to justify going with a smaller cartridge.

And in the case of the G27 I’ve got no significant loss in capacity as compared to the 9mm version (one round, 10 vs 11) and the size of the gun is identical as well, so I see no reason to go with the 9mm.

A different story is the G29 that I almost got instead, that gun has more power than the .40, an insignificant recoil increase, and no loss in capacity, but it’s significantly larger and heavier and that’s a real problem because I think it’s just too big for daily IWB carry while the G27 is perfectly manageable for me.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 10, 2019 11:32AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Most modern HP designs perform similarly well for a handgun round.

I don’t think that’s true. Different bullets at different impact velocities will cause different reactions from animals that get shot with them. How much of a difference will obviously depend on what specifically is being compared, but people choose to use a full-size 10mm to deer hunt with instead of a compact 9mm for good reasons. It’s not an overblown or exaggerated difference in performance and effectiveness, there are meaningful differences in the damage done that produce much different results from one cartridge to the next.

Quote
jasonstone20
For SD you are trying to stop the person from doing the action that they are doing. This is why a baseball bat or a baton isn't a great self defense tool while a a gun is.

I would agree with that but I still wouldn’t use a gun unless I felt like my life was in danger or I’d be beaten into a coma or something. I mean there’s a difference between squaring off with someone to settle a dispute the old-fashioned way and being jumped in a dark alley by an unknown person with unknown intentions. In the first case, well, if I lose then I lose and that’s just the way she goes. In the second case, I have no way of knowing what that person intends to do to me, so I very well might shoot them because I don’t think I’d like to take the chance and if they die from my gunshots, well, they should’ve picked someone else to jump that day.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 10, 2019 11:53AM
This is what drives me so crazy with the whole ballistic gel testing fad. I mean the idiot Chris Baker over at Lucky Gunner looks at gel results of 9mm vs. .357 Sig and says something like, “Well they both expanded to basically the same diameter and they both penetrated about the same depth, so there’s no reason to go with the .357 Sig unless you just think it’s cool or something.” But if he’d actually shoot living animals with both cartridges then he’d have an entirely different appreciation for the .357 because the additional 200 or 300 FPS in impact velocity makes a very noticeable difference in the damage done and how the animal is affected by it. Keep in mind that that guy once claimed in a YouTube video that the point of using a shotgun is not at all to increase hit probability. I mean, dude, seriously?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 10, 2019 01:16PM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Quote
jasonstone20
Most modern HP designs perform similarly well for a handgun round.
Quote
Ryan Nafe
I don’t think that’s true. Different bullets at different impact velocities will cause different reactions from animals that get shot with them. How much of a difference will obviously depend on what specifically is being compared, but people choose to use a full-size 10mm to deer hunt with instead of a compact 9mm for good reasons. It’s not an overblown or exaggerated difference in performance and effectiveness, there are meaningful differences in the damage done that produce much different results from one cartridge to the next.

Ryan,
I meant for self defense against people.

Quote
Ryan Nafe

Quote
jasonstone20
For SD you are trying to stop the person from doing the action that they are doing. This is why a baseball bat or a baton isn't a great self defense tool while a a gun is.

I would agree with that but I still wouldn’t use a gun unless I felt like my life was in danger or I’d be beaten into a coma or something. I mean there’s a difference between squaring off with someone to settle a dispute the old-fashioned way and being jumped in a dark alley by an unknown person with unknown intentions. In the first case, well, if I lose then I lose and that’s just the way she goes. In the second case, I have no way of knowing what that person intends to do to me, so I very well might shoot them because I don’t think I’d like to take the chance and if they die from my gunshots, well, they should’ve picked someone else to jump that day.

Exactly.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 10, 2019 01:22PM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
This is what drives me so crazy with the whole ballistic gel testing fad. I mean the idiot Chris Baker over at Lucky Gunner looks at gel results of 9mm vs. .357 Sig and says something like, “Well they both expanded to basically the same diameter and they both penetrated about the same depth, so there’s no reason to go with the .357 Sig unless you just think it’s cool or something.” But if he’d actually shoot living animals with both cartridges then he’d have an entirely different appreciation for the .357 because the additional 200 or 300 FPS in impact velocity makes a very noticeable difference in the damage done and how the animal is affected by it. Keep in mind that that guy once claimed in a YouTube video that the point of using a shotgun is not at all to increase hit probability. I mean, dude, seriously?

Ryan,
You are right, when it comes to using handguns on animals it is a whole different ballpark. That is why .44 magnums, 10MM, ect are still sold a lot of the time, they are effective rounds on animals. I wouldn't want to use a .380ACP or 9mm Luger on medium sized game or dangerous animals, but they work for humans. SD/firearms combat and hunting are two different things. You can get a round to do both, and I think you should be ok with the 180g .40 S&W. I wouldn't want to try the same thing with 9mm Luger.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 10, 2019 06:48PM
Quote
jasonstone20
You are right, when it comes to using handguns on animals it is a whole different ballpark. That is why .44 magnums, 10MM, ect are still sold a lot of the time, they are effective rounds on animals. I wouldn't want to use a .380ACP or 9mm Luger on medium sized game or dangerous animals...

The entire point I’m trying to make, and it’s probably my fault for not being as clear and direct with it as I could’ve been, is that humans are animals. That’s my point.

If you want to understand how effective something is at killing or at least disabling humans, shoot other animals with it that are similar in mass and cross-section to humans. That way you can actually observe what happens when the gun is really used, only you don’t have to go to prison for murder for it.

Paul’s “meat target” isn’t an animal either but it at least gives you an idea of what the entrance holes might look like (which basically tells you how fast and how much the bullet is expanding at that point) and how big the exit holes are (which basically tells you how much energy/force the bullet had left at that point).

Shooting a block of gel tells you absolutely nothing except what happens when you shoot a block of gel. That’s it.

The gel testers are making the EXACT SAME mistake that Spyderco made with CATRA testing. It’s useful as a comparative test to show you various metallurgical properties of one blade to another, but it has next to no similarity to what’s actually going on when people are really using the knives.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 10, 2019 09:57PM
Ryan,
Yes, humans are animals, and ones of a certain size, hide/skull/bone thickness, heart and lung placement. I agree with that. The difference that I am pointing out is that SD situation is not the same as one that involves animals. With animals, it usually is inhumane not to try for the quickest kill. With humans and a SD situation, stopping the action is the goal. This can happen with animals also, but the examples you had used sounded like hunting ones so I thought that I would keep the realm of discussion there.

edit:
After thinking about it a little more, what I am talking about is 'stopping power' (desired in SD) and 'terminal ballistics' (desired in hunting).

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2019 10:28PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 11, 2019 09:47AM
Some interesting data points here. The author almost sheepishly dismisses the conclusions of his data as though he knows the gun community just won't accept it...

Incapacitation by Caliber

[www.buckeyefirearms.org]






Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 11, 2019 09:54AM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Quote
Chum
He shoot two people two times each. One of the two froze up and eventually dropped to the ground. The other ran away.

While you’re not technically wrong in your description, I think you’re leaving out some facts that are directly in alignment with the points I made about the larger handgun cartridges. One guy was hurt badly enough that his body stopped functioning normally, collapsing soon afterwards and unable to harm the shooter. The other guy was hurt badly enough that not only did he stop doing what he was doing but he also barely made it out of the building before collapsing and dying. I would be very doubtful of the same two outcomes being produced if the guy had a .22

I previously posted a recent news story of a woman who shot a man once with a 22. The man uttered a sentence then collapsed and died. One of points was that in both cases the 40 and 22 produced the desired effects, however in the case of the 40 one of the intruders was able to take further action and run away. The 40 didn't out perform the 22.

I did note that this is anecdotal and not conclusive btw.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 11, 2019 10:01AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Ryan,
Yes, humans are animals, and ones of a certain size, hide/skull/bone thickness, heart and lung placement. I agree with that. The difference that I am pointing out is that SD situation is not the same as one that involves animals. With animals, it usually is inhumane not to try for the quickest kill. With humans and a SD situation, stopping the action is the goal. This can happen with animals also, but the examples you had used sounded like hunting ones so I thought that I would keep the realm of discussion there.

edit:
After thinking about it a little more, what I am talking about is 'stopping power' (desired in SD) and 'terminal ballistics' (desired in hunting).

There is a psychological difference between say a human and a bear or cougar. Humans understand the results of getting shot. How many cases of someone quitting whatever they were doing after getting shot are there? No doubt a lot.

Additionally, people have killed bears and Cougars with 22lr. Again shot placement is the main issue, not penetration. Tissue damage after penetration is another issue however. Given the above data on one shot incapacitation, it does make me consider the old mafia wisdom that a 22 rattles around in the skull.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 11, 2019 10:15AM
Regarding my new Ruger lcr, 8 shot, 22lr...

The trigger is so disappointing. Not only is it extremely heavy, but it has an EXTREMELY gritty feel. Probably the worst trigger ever I have ever felt. This is a strong contrast to the other lcrs that I have dry fired (not rimfire.) Those had great feeling triggers.

I watched a video on how to slick up an lcr trigger and decided my chances of screwing something up permanently are pretty high. Not sure what I'm going to do with this revolver.

I have two old Taurus 9 shot 22lr revolvers. My stainless version is my most used gun by far. Put countless rounds through it. The other, blued, model has about 100 rounds through it. I've been saving it for the day my stainless model conks out on me. Anyway, I busted out the blued model to compare its trigger to the lcr trigger (both are basically new.) Night and day. Not only is the Taurus trigger lighter, but it is very smooth.

Ruger should be ashamed of the trigger on the lcr 22lr... it isn't a cheap gun either!


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 11, 2019 11:12AM
Quote
Chum
The trigger is so disappointing. Not only is it extremely heavy, but it has an EXTREMELY gritty feel. Probably the worst trigger ever I have ever felt.


Well that stinks. It’s really odd that it’s so bad, I agree that the regular LCR trigger is pretty decent. Maybe there’s something wrong with that individual gun, internally. Or maybe all their rimfires are just bad triggers like that, Ruger does tend to make all their triggers a lot heavier than necessary.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 11, 2019 02:46PM
Quote
Chum
There is a psychological difference between say a human and a bear or cougar. Humans understand the results of getting shot. How many cases of someone quitting whatever they were doing after getting shot are there? No doubt a lot.

I already covered that here:

Quote
Ryan Nafe
I wouldn’t argue that you couldn’t get the job done with a .22 or .25 or another tiny cartridge, what I would argue is that bigger cartridges that produce wider wounds coupled with exit wounds are gonna bleed people out faster, shutting them down even if they don’t voluntarily stop doing what they were doing.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 11, 2019 03:03PM
Chum, the Buckeye data from the first chart is definitional muddying of the waters. Combining CNS shots with torso shots and then making a distinction between the cartridges used is obviously gonna make all of them about equal because any gun will kill someone with a CNS hit.

—-


As to this:


Quote
Chum
I previously posted a recent news story of a woman who shot a man once with a 22. The man uttered a sentence then collapsed and died. One of points was that in both cases the 40 and 22 produced the desired effects, however in the case of the 40 one of the intruders was able to take further action and run away. The 40 didn't out perform the 22.

I did note that this is anecdotal and not conclusive btw.

Either way there’s not enough information to tell if either of the two cartridges were the determining factor in the end results, but I would think the distinction in motivations and dispositions between an unarmed man who is very familiar with the shooter and two armed people who saw the contents of the shooters wallet and laid a trap to rob him and possibly kill him would be a large part of the way the people reacted to being shot.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 11, 2019 11:22PM
Hey Chum, by the way, there’s an interesting little .22 from Taurus that you might like to try out if you decide to move on from the LCR, I’ve been thinking of getting one for a fun plinker and also as a pocket gun for deer hunting to finish off the very rare, but still possible, wounded deer:

[averagejoeshandgunreviews.blogspot.com]
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 12, 2019 03:20PM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Hey Chum, by the way, there’s an interesting little .22 from Taurus that you might like to try out if you decide to move on from the LCR, I’ve been thinking of getting one for a fun plinker and also as a pocket gun for deer hunting to finish off the very rare, but still possible, wounded deer:

[averagejoeshandgunreviews.blogspot.com]

That does look like a fun plinker.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 12, 2019 05:15PM
Oh this is just way too awesome for me to describe:



Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 13, 2019 02:34PM
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 14, 2019 07:56PM
I think I'm going to go with the deal I found on a PPQ for my next purchase. It's a 5" M1 version with the paddle mag release. I'm not super picky about those, as I haven't trained with a carry gun enough to find a preference. This will be a home/range gun and the Shield will be a carry gun once I am comfortable with my shooting ability. The PPQ will eventually get a flashlight, but for now it will just be plain.

This is over another AR rifle. The one I have, while admittedly budget, seems pretty good by all accounts. Reliable, accurate, and serves its role well in its SPR configuration as a 200+ yard plinker/target rifle. I could also hunt with it at the accuracy level it has and the range limit for 5.56 on deer size game, which is about 100 to 150 yards for me. I'd have to spend much more than I can afford to get much improvement for my uses.

Interesting perspective on the 23 as an only handgun. I like 40, Eventually I'll have to give my brother back his 40. When that happens, I'm trying to have only 22 and 9mm, just for cheapness of ammo. For the sake of being American, I'll eventually want a 1911.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2019 08:09PM by me2.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 14, 2019 09:41PM
After my experience with the HK, I would prefer to have the European paddle release for sure, I think you’ll like it. I find the design to be much better than a push-button, it’s easier to hit and the sweeping down motion is the same as the slide release and most other controls, it’s very intuitive and easy to use. I think you’ll like the M1 version a lot.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 15, 2019 03:05AM
I first tried one on my sons HK airsoft. It's not a huge deal, but it's kind of different, and I haven't heard anyone who's tried it say they don't like it. I like the polygonal rifling and longer barrel and sight radius. I don't think I've read a bad review of the PPQ in general, though the M1 seems less popular than the M2 version. That also means it's cheaper. Depending on how it shoots, it might alleviate my desire to get another GP100.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 15, 2019 08:52AM
Me2... I don't think you can be disappointed with a PPQ. It is a top-tier 9mm imo.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 15, 2019 07:55PM
Another reason to get a Walther PPQ 9mm...

[youtu.be]


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 15, 2019 09:02PM
Chris,
What AR-15 do you have again? I have been thinking of getting a S&W M&P-15, a PSA, or a Bushmaster Dissapator.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 16, 2019 03:18AM
I got a PSA. I Johnny Cashed it, one piece at a time, over several months. Clearance lower build kit with Blackhawk! stock and standard trigger, daily deal stripped lower, and daily deal 15" hanguard upper with MBUS sights. If you can put the lower together, the kits are often a better deal. My only complaint is the handguard touches the gas block instead of being true free floated. I haven't tried to fix it yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2019 03:19AM by me2.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 17, 2019 08:35AM
Chronograph check with the Glock 27 and the KelTec Sub2000, using the Magtech 155 grain JHP:

G27 - Average of 1,180, SD of 8, ES of 22

Sub2000 - Average of 1,485, SD of 23, ES of 53


So, the Glock is doing well enough in the extreme spread numbers that I’m pretty sure I could run it without a heavier spring, especially with the relatively mild 180 grain loadings. Those numbers are consistent enough. Decent speed from the smallish gun, though the Kahr was only 10 FPS behind and the HK was 30 FPS ahead.

The really awesome thing is the numbers put out by the Sub2000, the additional 300 FPS bumps energy foot pounds up to almost 760, and it stays above the Glock’s muzzle velocity all the way out to 75 yards. It’s also a decently-flat trajectory out to there, zeroed at 25 yards it stays on point at 50 and drops about 1.5” at 75, then 3.5” at 100.

Crazy as it sounds, I might pack the Sub2000 for deer hunting this year and see what happens when I shoot one, assuming I can reliably hit 8” targets out at 75 yards or so. The average range I see deer at is quite near the 75 yards at which the impact velocity is very similar to my Glock at close-range defensive distances, so I might have something to show you guys in late November.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 17, 2019 08:44AM
Ryan,
I have wanted to get a Kel-Tec Sub2000 for a while. How do you like it?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 17, 2019 09:34AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Ryan,
I have wanted to get a Kel-Tec Sub2000 for a while. How do you like it?

Hmmm. Well I can’t say too much right now because I just haven’t shot it much yet, but a few things are immediately obvious so I can note those for ya:

- As far as being a compact shoulder-fired gun, I really don’t see how you could do better than this one. 30” overall length when open and well under 5 pounds loaded, it’s extremely compact and maneuverable.

- There are some very sharp edges on the bolt tube cutout for the charging handle, I actually cut my finger on one of them. That’s a little disappointing, it would take all of 30 seconds for a skilled worker to clean those up before finishing and final assembly.

- Despite being a PCC, something you’d assume is not powerful enough to be uncomfortable to shoot, this gun is really not very pleasant to shoot for me. It’s not uncomfortable enough to be unusable or anything that extreme, it’s just something I don’t see myself shooting all day at the range.

- The trigger really isn’t that bad, certainly not bad enough to require a bunch of expensive aftermarket parts to improve. It’s no target trigger, that’s for sure, but for what the gun is intended to do, I think it’s just fine.

- The sights are decent, just basic AR-style peep sights.

- Mine takes Glock 22 mags so I could potentially use the same magazines in my G27, which is nice. Store this gun paired up with a cheap police trade-in G22 and a bunch of ammo, you’d be ready to handle most anything with a single case that weighs about 10 pounds.

—-

The folding mechanism is really the highlight of the gun, it’s basically the only game in town if you’re looking for an ultra-portable gun that’s useful out to 75 or 100 yards. It would be near-ideal as a bugout/survival type gun because it’s a very simple blowback mechanism (reliable and very easy to deal with) and in it’s folded configuration you could store the gun and several loaded magazines in a medium-sized laptop bag or similar case, just grab it and go. FMJ ammo could be used for small game and CNS shots on large predators while typical JHP stuff could be used for defense against humans and hunting medium game.

A couple days ago I called Kel-Tec’s customer service line and asked a rep (who was quite happy to answer my questions and just generally talk to me) if the polymer was in danger of becoming brittle if I spent several hours sitting outside in 0 to 10 degree weather, like I easily might have to for deer hunting, and he told me that those temperatures would be no problem at all for the gun because they had tested it to far lower temperatures than that. So that’s good to know.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 17, 2019 09:39AM
Also Jason, I got the Glock model but if you were to get the Multi-Mag version you can get a magazine catch that works with the magazines for your S&W 9mm, which would be a very good pairing.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 17, 2019 11:28AM
The sub2000 and glock/M and P combo is a nice modern upgrade to a lever/revolver combo. The velocity increase from a 16" vs 4" barrel is also impressive. It's good to know the sub2000 sights are decent since adding an optic really can ruin the folding feature.
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