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Firearms and Shooting

Posted by Bugout Bill 
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 17, 2019 11:31AM
PSA has the M and P sub2000 on sale for $300 if anyone is interested.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 17, 2019 06:52PM
Ryan,
Yeah, the magazine compatiblity was one of the features I liked. Kel-Tec makes decent, usable firearms. Often they get a bad rap.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 17, 2019 09:47PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Kel-Tec makes decent, usable firearms. Often they get a bad rap.

Yup! They’re not fancy or anything but hey, if it’s reliable and does it’s job, then it’s a good tool either way. The trigger on the Sub 2000 isn’t fantastic but it’s definitely better than the one that came on the much more expensive Beretta CX4 .45 I had. The Sub 2000 fills the PCC role better than the Beretta did at basically half the cost.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 18, 2019 09:31AM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Despite being a PCC, something you’d assume is not powerful enough to be uncomfortable to shoot, this gun is really not very pleasant to shoot for me. It’s not uncomfortable enough to be unusable or anything that extreme, it’s just something I don’t see myself shooting all day at the range.

I haven't bought a Kel Tec sub2000 because of this. I have a 9mm Hi-Point carbine (heavier than the sub2000) and amazingly it isn't that pleasant to shoot. Blowback action?

My 44mag Winchester lever action is just as comfortable, if not more so, to shoot than the Hi-Point 9mm. This is assuming I don't put in high powered rounds, then you can feel the difference. Standard pressure 44mag is very shootable.

Below is a video on the Henry Big Boy in 327 Federal Magnum, a round I am interested in. I waffled between getting an lcr in 22lr or 327 magnum. I very much wish I had gone with the 327 magnum, as the triggers on the center fire models feel amazing... standing in stark contrast to the 22lr lcr trigger... the worst trigger I have ever come across.

This video is from Buffalo Outdoors. He calls himself Buffalo, speaks with a heavy southern accent, and clearly knows his stuff when it comes to firearms. He is one of my go to opinions on YT when I'm in the market for a new gun. This particular video highlights the ballistics of the 327 federal magnum out of a 16" barrel. Like the 357mag/38spec and 44mag/44spec, the 327 fed mag comes alive out of a 16" barrel. An additional 700+ fps vs a 6" barrel. The Henry Big Boy looks like a pleasure to shoot in this caliber.

At about 10:30 in the video he starts to compare the 327 fedmag vs the 9mm out of a Ruger PC Carbine. He shows the difference between the rounds on a piece of unhardened steel. I was impressed...

[youtu.be]


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 18, 2019 06:03PM
Yeah Chum, two family members of mine have Henry steel Big Boys in .44 and .357, both of which are 10 times more fun to shoot than the Sub 2000. I think you’re right in that it’s probably due mostly to the blowback action and the rather poor/minimalist stock design. Plus, even though regular .40 S&W turns into full-power 10mm through the carbine, it’s still weaksauce compared to one of the magnum lever guns. The .357 is almost recoilless even with the Buffalo Bore 180 grain XTP’s moving at 1,675 FPS.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 18, 2019 09:21PM
I went shopping tonight and found a deal on the M&P 2.0, so I snagged that instead of the PPQ. For about $100 cheaper on a new 2.0, I couldn't pass it up.

I won't get to shoot it for a while, but in dry firing it seems good. Hard case, lock, 2 mags, and 3 spare back straps all came together. The medium back strap came installed, but I may switch to the smaller one. I'll have to shoot it a bit to see.

One thing is the trigger is very similar to my Shield. It has a bit more travel, but it seems a little lighter, and has an overtravel stop. Trigger reset is excellent. Very short and noticable in dry fire, though actual gun fire could hide the audible reset.

The effects of a longer barrel on pistol rounds is impressive. For the area I live, a 44 magnum lever gun could nearly do it all for hunting and defense. Most hunting shots are less than 100 yards is guess. 44 special offers increased capacity, though feeding such a gun would be expensive.

I think my next planned purchase will be a 308 bolt action of some sort. I've been favoring the MVP Scout from Mossberg. I handled one tonight while waiting for my paperwork. I found the bolt surprisingly smooth. I'm not sold on it yet, but the forward scope position of scout rifles might be okay after all.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 18, 2019 11:11PM
Sweet, the M&P 2.0 grips are fantastic. Some people think it’s too rough but I love it, your hand sticks in place extremely well. Plus their removable backstrap/palmswell design is really well-done as opposed to the Glock system that I find really underwhelming and basically useless. Did you get the standard size, the 5”, or the compact?
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 19, 2019 04:22AM
My goal was the standard size, and that's what had the discount. They had the FDE long slide 5" but it had the manual safety and didn't have the discount. The clerk brought out the compact model by mistake, and it was almost identical with just a shorter grip and 15 rd magazines. We had to lay them on the table side by side to tell the difference. The long slide is very nice, but the extra .75" of barrel wasn't worth it to me.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 19, 2019 08:20AM
Nice pick up me2. Interested to hear your take on the M&P 2. A comparison shooting with your Shield would be especially interesting.

I love my Winchester 44mag lever gun. You are definitely right about ammo prices though. This is one reason that at some point I want to get a 357/38.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 19, 2019 09:01AM
I have a Daisy BB pistol that I've been practicing dry firing. The 2.0 is similar, but with a better trigger. The Shield is thinner and lighter, but not as much as I'd have thought. The Shield is pretty peppy in 9mm. I hope the 2.0 is less so. I'd not want to try a 40 in a Shield.

Based on data from ballistics by the inch, a 38 special from a carbine is pretty impressive. At some point I'll get a revolver and I'd like to pair it with a lever gun the same caliber. 357/38 seems the most logical choice.

Also, just saw Promag makes 33 rounders for the 2.0.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2019 02:55PM
Quote
me2
I'd not want to try a 40 in a Shield.

I’ve mentioned this a bit in the past but I’m gonna expand on it quickly here:

While the .40 does produce more recoil than standard 9mm in small guns like a G27, Shield, or Kahr, the ballistics are often better than a .357 magnum from the typical 2” revolver barrel and the .40 semi-autos produce significantly less recoil and generally have an advantage in capacity as well. They kick, yes, but it’s not as much as you’d think and the power on the other end is pretty substantial.

The .40 does better than the .45 ACP through short barrels and will more or less match the performance of the .45 +P while being packaged in a smaller and lighter gun with usually more ammo on board.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2019 09:44AM
Ryan,
Effective calibers out of short barrels is an interesting topic. A lot of thing change and the common ideas are no longer valid. I think a .40 S&W might be a good caliber for a short barrel. 9mm is a good choice also, but like anything you have to pick decent loads for what you are using them for.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2019 11:46AM
Yeah Jason, 9mm (at least from what I can tell) is similar to .45 in that you need to use real +P or +P+ ammo in order to make up for the velocity loss in the short barrels. Federal’s 9BPLE load for example is one that I would prefer to use from any 9mm because it gets around 1,300 from full size guns and probably somewhere around 1,200 from 3” barrels, which is considerably better than the 1,050 you’d see from a standard pressure load. Plus it’s not very expensive at all, like $15 for 50 rounds as opposed to $20 for 20 rounds of the supposedly-superior “high-tech modern ammo”
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2019 11:48AM
It’s the same thing for .357 Sig, yes you lose the typical 75 to 100 FPS when you have a subcompact gun, but even with that loss in velocity you’re still looking at 1,300 or even 1,400 with a 125 grain bullet, which is considerably more than you can expect from even a full-size 9mm +P.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2019 09:59AM
Ryan,
Yep, exactly.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2019 12:51PM
To change topics a bit, should I lap my scope rings?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2019 06:31PM
Me2, it depends. If you’re using a high-quality set of matching rings and one-piece rail, it’s probably not necessary. But with less expensive components and/or separate bases (both are more likely to be significantly miss-aligned), it’s a good idea.

The truth is that any decent scope can actually handle quite a bit of offset without taking any damage that would impact its functionality, but rings that are lapped will have a large contact area with the scope and so they’ll be much less likely to either damage the tube if over-tightened or let the scope move under recoil.

Also, stay away from vertical split rings if at all possible because they can’t be lapped and they’re very easy to crush the tube with.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2019 06:36PM
It just occurred that both my scope mounts are one piece versions. I have a UTG one piece on my Marlin 60 and a Weaver one piece base on my AR. I had Nikon vertical rings on my 336 and had trouble with them, but that was mostly because I didn't follow the directions. I will likely switch to the Weaver 6 screw rings or similar if I decide to put a scope on it again.

How are the verticals more susceptible to damaging the scope? The Nikons I had only had one pair of screws, so I don't think I hurt the scope. It shoots fine on my AR at any rate.

I'm just convinced I'd do more harm than good trying to lap a set of rings.

I have some time off next week and plan to make a couple of trips to the range. I'm also planning to switch to Aguila for 22 ammo, standard velocity, 1130 fps. It's cheaper and I can use it in all 3 22s. Right now I have the scoped Marlin set up with CCI standard velocity, the Tech Sighted Marlin with Blazer, and the Victory with Blazer. The Aguila probably will be less accurate in the scoped Marlin, hit lower in the Tech Sighted Marlin, and be about the same in the Victory. Anybody used the Aguila?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2019 10:30PM
Quote
me2
How are the verticals more susceptible to damaging the scope?

It’s difficult for me to think of a way to describe the mechanical workings of the verticals in writing like this, it would be easier with some kind of visual diagram to use.

Basically the problem is that the base of a horizontal ring is generally tightened to much greater torque levels than the caps holding the scope, and this is not a problem for the scope tube because the forces are completely isolated from it, it is only put under what ideally is even, moderate pressure from the caps that secure it to the base.

But with verticals, the scope is first subjected to the very high (often over twice the torque) force necessary for holding it onto the rifle itself, and then you make that even worse by levering the top seam even tighter with another set of screws.

I’m having trouble explaining this, but it’s almost like if you think of how a handcuff works. They might be round-looking and seem like they’d be not terribly uncomfortable, but if you think about the fact that the hinge is unmoving so that the circle it makes is never a perfect match for your wrist, well, it’s easy to see why they can instantly go from being “too loose to be secure” to being “really painful and even damaging”, because the hinges create a scissor-like mechanism that applies uneven and quite high force. Vertical rings work in the same way.

But horizontal rings can be carefully and evenly tightened down, after being lapped true, so that the force on the scope is as even as possible and spread out over a very large surface area.

If you do decide to try lapping any of them, use this kit from Wheeler Engineering, it comes with equipment to lapp them with as well as equipment to check alignment before and after:

[www.midwayusa.com]

Also, the Wheeler Engineering torque wrench is a very very handy and important tool to have for any DIY gun stuff. You might not need it constantly, but when you do need a torque wrench, there’s really no alternative to an actual torque wrench:

[www.midwayusa.com]
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 26, 2019 04:05AM
Interesting. I only have experience with the Nikon vertical split rings, so can only comment on them. My understanding of them is the bottom screw tightens the base to the rail/mount.

The instructions, which I didn't follow, say to tighten the bottoms to full torque after placing them in position. There is a bearing surface just above the bottom screw that acts as a pivot, isolating the bottom screw from the scope. At full torque on the bottom screws, a recommended 24 inch-pounds, the scope is still free to move in the rings as long as the upper screws are loose.

My understanding is also the rings act somewhat like a hose clamp when the top screws are tightened, providing a good fit and secure grip. I can see how different models could allow too much pressure on the scope, particularly on versions with multiple pairs of screws per ring, or if the pivot surface between the bottom and top screws were not there.

Admittedly the appeal of the Nikon vertical rings was price and availability, as they're about half that of the Weaver rings mentioned above and I found them readily available at local stores. I was forced to remove and reattach the scope twice to ensure a good grip and stable mounting and by that point decided to return the rings and mount the scope on my AR15. To avoid frustration, I recommend following the manufacturers instructions.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 29, 2019 12:35PM
I keep going cheaper, smaller and less powerful. Just ordered a Kel Tec P32 in, you guessed it, 32 acp.

10ounces fully loaded. Very small. Low recoil. 7+1 capacity. The oldest Kel Tec model. The only Kel Tec that people report being reliable. Of the 10 or so videos I watched on it, they were all very favorable. Bonus... only $250.

Will give my 2 cents when I get out to shot it, which will hopefully be soon because this is absolutely perfect shooting weather in Eugene Oregon. I do love the Fall here.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 29, 2019 12:48PM
Regarding 32acp. I will be ordering some Underwood Xtreme Defender ammo, both regular and +P, to try out. I've always liked the concept of this ammo. Basically a solid, non-expanding, bullet that uses principles of hydraulics to create bigger wound cavities.

Paul Harrell's recent video on non-hollow point ammo gave a good showing of Underwood Xtreme Defender ammo on his meat targets...

[youtu.be]


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 29, 2019 03:38PM
I have a p32. Would suggest doing the “fluff and buff” on it before shooting, and run it wet- at least for break in. I only used eezox on it after initial cleaning and fluff and buff and got a lot of jams. Ran flawlessly once I ran it wet. Only used ball ammo. Haven’t shot it in a while. Have 100-150 rounds through it.

If you aren’t aware, check out KTOG (keltec owner’s group).

Neat little gun.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 29, 2019 04:33PM
There are a couple Keltecs that are on my must list, but a long way off. The SU-16 and the KSG mainly. Their 22 target pistol and PMR 30 are also interesting. Very innovative but lacking sometimes in execution.

I got to try out the M&P 2.0 today, along with running through a thorough pistol range trip. In short, I really like it. The sights are basically dead on windage wlse. It shoots a little low, so the rounds hit at the top of the white dot instead of the top of the front post with a level hold across the top of the sights. I ran about 50 rounds through it, from 5 to 25 yards. I'll have to start downloading the magazines. 17 rounds goes quick. Accuracy was quite good keeping most shots in a 4" ring out to 10 yards. 25 yards was a bit more scattered, but I kept 10 rounds in the 8 ring on a full size silhouette target.

Camparing it to the Shield, the trigger has a noticable bit more curve. The trigger breaks at the very last of the available travel space, which was far enough to make me think something was wrong with it. It's easier for me to hit than the Shield. The Shield requires a fair bit of effort to be as accurate. Obviously it's a fair bit heavier vs the Shield, which claims it down a bit. I may still try the small grips, but the medium worked pretty well.

I tried some right handed shooting with the Shield, and it hits pretty well centered. I'm left handed and left eye dominant, and tend to push everything right. So, I may start shooting the Shield right handed or have to drift the sight a bit and split the difference.

I zeroed the Victory for 25 yards with the Aguila ammo, and kept most on the little ShootNsee target. I only had to move one click down and 2 clicks left. I'm going back for rifles on Friday, so I'll run some more Aguila through the Marlin rifles. Accuracy out of the Victory was more than acceptable, so I'm hoping for similar results from the rifles.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 29, 2019 05:44PM
Quote
Chum
Paul Harrell's recent video on non-hollow point ammo gave a good showing of Underwood Xtreme Defender ammo on his meat targets...

[youtu.be]

I saw that one, it was pretty interesting. Those bullets do seem to bridge the gap between FMJ and HP’s
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 29, 2019 08:52PM
I got the 22 pound recoil springs and guide rod in from Wolff as well as a service pak, so now the gun is using Wolff springs across the board with the exception of the mag release button and the slide lock/release lever. The initial order was delayed because of a mistake on my part and not anything on their end, they handled it well and I totally dropped the ball.

Tried it out this morning and it shortened the distance the brass is thrown by about 25% or 33% or so. Just based on rough measurements made by stepping off the distance. It also totally changed the feel of the recoil. With the stock springs it had minimal muzzle rise but a hard impact on the hand, now it has a bit more upward torque or muzzle rise but next to no hard impact on the hand. I also didn’t have any functionality issues with limp-wristing and it always locked open on an empty magazine.

So now it’s more pleasant to shoot, reliability doesn’t seem to have been compromised, and the brass ejection pattern tells me it’s not as badly undersprung, though the brass still lands about 10 feet away which is a bit farther than I’d like. I may try an even heavier spring.

I also got the steel sights installed a couple weeks ago with very minimal effort, the rear drifted in perfectly with no need for removing material and of course the front sight screwed right in. I think I need to do a minor windage adjustment but otherwise they seem just fine and look a little bit nicer as well.

And apparently I was lying to myself about holsters because I already ordered a JM Custom Kydex AIWB and also got in a Safariland leg holster for it. The leg holster is a combination of one of their single-strap leg platforms and an ALS holster, much cheaper than their ready-made leg rigs and I can always switch back to the paddle or belt loops the holster came with. It’s a very secure holster and still offers extremely fast draws, the ALS mechanism is great. The leg position kinda makes me feel like a cowboy.

Once the JM Custom gets here in a week or so I’ll do an update video on everything.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 30, 2019 02:51PM
Quote
mikedoh
I have a p32. Would suggest doing the “fluff and buff” on it before shooting, and run it wet- at least for break in. I only used eezox on it after initial cleaning and fluff and buff and got a lot of jams. Ran flawlessly once I ran it wet. Only used ball ammo. Haven’t shot it in a while. Have 100-150 rounds through it.

If you aren’t aware, check out KTOG (keltec owner’s group).

Neat little gun.

Thanks for the input mikedoh. How long ago did you get your p32?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 31, 2019 08:23AM
I bought the p32 4 or so years ago. Haven’t shot it since shortly after getting it. Farm I used to shoot at changed hands and I no longer have access.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 03, 2019 01:50PM
I’ve been doing a bit of digging for information on long-term use and serious evaluation of several of Palmetto State Armory’s rifles, their ARs, AKMs, and their KS-47 hybrid, and I think it’s safe to say that PSA makes real war-grade firearms, regardless of price. Check out this slew of videos:
























Me2, I think you can rest easy. They appear to be just as solid and reliable as anything else on the market, in some cases they’re a better tool than others that cost far more money.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 03, 2019 04:06PM
Ryan,
PSA looks good if you ask me.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
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