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Firearms and Shooting

Posted by Bugout Bill 
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 22, 2019 01:01PM
Chum, some of the Federal blue box loads (a few different select loads in a few different rifle cartridges) produce very good accuracy in a surprisingly large number of different rifles, but as a general rule, I agree with Paul. The soft point bullets in most of their rifle ammo is also usually a bit ho-hum and mild in performance on game although some of it (180 grain .30-06 for example) does quite well for what it is.

The recent batch (75 rounds) of Federal blue box 12 gauge 12 pellet 00 buckshot I got is complete crap. The crimps are all over the place, the patterns are a joke, and it’s been a complete disappointment overall from my shotgun.

Winchester 3” magnum 15 pellet 00 is now my go-to choice for 00 buckshot and Winchester 27 pellet #4 is my go-to choice for #4 buckshot. It’s expensive, yes, but it produces excellent patterns from my shotgun, the crimps are heat-sealed so they’re more watertight and generally durable, and they’re both (the 3” 00 and the 2.75” #4) available at basically every store I go to.

The magnum 00 are what I call “teeth-rattlers”, they give a hard shove to the shoulder, but the patterns are extremely good out to 35 or 40 yards from my gun and 15 holes through something with a single pull of the trigger is a force to be reckoned with. The #4 is ideal for varmints and indoor defense, the 00 for large animals or outdoor defense.

They are the only two buckshot loads my shotgun will get now.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 22, 2019 07:31PM
I think my target loads are Federal for my shotgun. I haven't had any trouble, but I'm not the most discerning shotgun user. I've only used them a couple of times. So far so good. They're the only shotgun shot loads I've used. All the other times I've used it have been Winchester rifles slugs. Those are fun, but I can only take 8 or 10 at most.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 22, 2019 09:26PM
Me2, the blue box birdshot is usually decent enough, it will get the job done. Right now my preference for birdshot loads is either Federal Hi-Bird or Winchester Super Pheasant, the Winchester stuff edges it out in pattern density and consistency but it’s nearly twice the cost.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 26, 2019 10:23PM
The 7mm Rem Mag project rifle got its first kill on Sunday morning. A broadside shot of about 75 to 85 yards, live weight estimated as 180 to 190 pounds based on a dressed (gutted and fully drained of blood) weight of 152 pounds. At the shot, the animal collapsed down into the position shown in the first picture and didn’t move afterwards, it was knocked unconscious by the impact shockwave and quickly bled to death before regaining consciousness:






Ammo used was Hornady Superformance 154 grain SST, impact velocity of between 2,950 and 3,000 FPS. Bullet performance sort of speaks for itself even without autopsy photos, but based on exit wound size (expanded caliber sized hole, the bullet had nearly ran out of energy) I would say that either a tougher bullet like the 154 grain Interbond or a heavier bullet like the 162 grain SST would be a better choice when larger deer or quartering shots are encountered.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 27, 2019 04:24AM
Excellent shot. I keep flipping between 270, 308, and 7mm Rem Mag for my future built action. I'd like to say I want a 1000 yard round, but the reality is I wouldn't get to shoot that far but once a year maybe. For my uses, a 308 makes the most sense. Btw, I watched my uncle clean a deer taken with a 7mm Mag. The exit hole was about golf ball sized, but I have no idea what type of bullet or range was involved.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 27, 2019 12:54PM
Quote
me2
I keep flipping between 270, 308, and 7mm Rem Mag for my future built action. I'd like to say I want a 1000 yard round, but the reality is I wouldn't get to shoot that far but once a year maybe. For my uses, a 308 makes the most sense.

I think you’re basically spot-on with the .308 choice, especially if you’re using factory ammo. It’s a very versatile cartridge and rifles for it are usually not very picky about ammo at all. A halfway decent rifle will usually give .75” to 1.5” groups with a wide variety of bullet weights and styles, and factory ammo is available that will do well for basically any ordinary or extended range hunting as well as just target shooting.

It’s really hard to beat the .308, don’t believe the ignoramuses who try and tell you things like “The 6.5 Creedmoor is just as powerful but has less recoil and better BC’s.” The .308 may indeed kick more and it generally will have a steeper trajectory than the 6.5mm’s but it is far more effective on animals and can be used successfully on everything from coyotes to moose if you match bullet construction, weight, and impact velocities correctly. The 6.5 is simply not as versatile or powerful. It’s also less effective from a 20” barrel than the .308 is.


Personally I’ve found that I really like the increased power of the 7mm Rem Mag and I don’t mind the heavier and longer gun, so I’m gonna work with this cartridge for a while. I’ll also now be handloading for it so I don’t care about limited factory ammo compared to the .308 or .30-06


Quote
me2
Btw, I watched my uncle clean a deer taken with a 7mm Mag. The exit hole was about golf ball sized, but I have no idea what type of bullet or range was involved.

Yeah the 4 main factors that influence that are bullet design/construction, animal weight/density, where and what exactly the bullet hits, and impact velocity. All of those things can vary significantly.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 27, 2019 07:11PM
I'm not sold on the 6.5 Creedmore either. I think it's a good target round, but it doesn't have the punch of the 308. The wind drift issue is really the big advantage. It has a little less drop. Comparing Federal Fusion loads for 6.5 Creedmore (120 grain) and 308 (180 grain) at 750 yards, the 308 is still moving faster, has more energy, and makes a bigger hole. The drop difference is about 6 inches in favor of the 6.5. I think 6.5 Creedmore and 6.5 Grendel are good military calibers, but the cost and ammo availability will keep me from both.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 28, 2019 09:45AM
Nice buck there! Sounds like the 7mm did the job perfectly.

Since Chum has never steered me wrong- I picked up a P32. I added a stainless guide rod from Galloway. It is a tad longer but almost half the weight of the Seecamp. The sights are about as effective as the Seecamp’s sights. smiling smiley



Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 29, 2019 06:39PM
Nice shot Ryan!

Chad, still haven't shot my P32. Can't wait to hear your comparison of the two mouse guns.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
November 29, 2019 08:33PM
I've heard of the Seacamp in hushed tones of awe. That was a while ago though. I'll be curious to see how it works.

I did a little Black Friday shopping for some upgrades. I snagged a Nikon Prostaff Rimfire II before they're all gone. This will go on my Marlin to replace the Simmons scope. It has been shifting zero a bit lately so I decided to upgrade it. The Simmons did suffer a direct impact from a drop, so it's understandable. I was shocked to see Nikon was going to stop making rifle scopes. Evidently they are getting beat in a very competitive market. Also grabbed a 3rd mag for the M&P9. For a normal shooting trip, I won't have to load magazines at the range.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 06, 2019 11:25AM
[www.youtube.com]




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"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
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StoneSharpEdges
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 16, 2019 09:08AM
Drool...

video: [youtu.be]


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 16, 2019 07:19PM
I haven't watched the video, but the caption says a lot. There are certainly people who think that would be best, but they'd be wrong. This thread has remained blissfully unpolitical, so I'll say no more here. Feel free to PM me for further discussion.

I'm a revolver fan, and I can appreciate a good long range shooter. 25 yards is my max, though I'd like to try 50 or even 100 if I am able to replace my 357. Its a wonder autos can hit anything, what with the sights, barrel, slide, and all moving with every shot. I'm attributing the accuracy of my Victory at least partially to lack of sight and barrel movement with each shot. The rest is probably the heavy barrel and trigger.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 16, 2019 09:24PM
I think it is best to keep things non-political, I just posted the video because I thought Nutnfancy made some interesting observations.

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"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
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StoneSharpEdges
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 17, 2019 08:52AM
He has a follow up on that channel related to VA, though ou have not watched that one either.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 17, 2019 10:28AM
Chris,
Yeah, I saw that. I haven't watched it either.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 18, 2019 02:20AM
Chum- interesting and unique piece. I was perplexed until the excellent POU discussion. There is an MR73 our there with your name on it somewhere...
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 21, 2019 03:46PM
I decided to trade a centerfire rifle I had that I didn’t really have a ton of use for. Wanted to trade it for something that the shop had on the shelf right then and there in order to lighten the load on those guys, and it needed to be a bolt-action rimfire, preferably .22 LR but a .22 Mag or a .17 HMR could be tolerated if the gun itself was something I liked.

What I ended up with was a Savage MkII FV-SR .22 LR. I had the shop mount the Leuplold 4x32mm scope from the other rifle on the Savage using some Leupold PRW rings. After making sure the barrel was not touching the stock (it wasn’t) and the action screws were at 20 inch pounds (just as a clear baseline to begin experimenting with) I proceeded to dial-in the scope with a 25 yard zero, but nothing too serious or precise because of the snow and wind today.

After 50 rounds to build up some fouling in the bore, I started shooting groups off a mediocre rest setup and managed several 10-shot groups of about 3/8” at 25 yards, so the rifle appears to be plenty accurate for now. They’re kinda rough little guns and they’re certainly nothing fancy, but a bit of polishing up and careful experimenting with torque settings should make it a decent tool, though a new stock and glass bedding will likely improve it a lot also.

Here’s a few pictures of the new setup:











A few immediate observations after this first round of testing/evaluation:

- It did well enough with the CCI 45 grain HP’s that I’ll probably continue using them for both plinking and hunting.

- Even with the flimsy plastic stock, no bedding, and the somewhat rough action, the rifle gave pretty respectable performance and I would assume the accuracy will improve after some more time behind the rifle and better conditions for the shooting (less wind, no snow, better rest, etc.) It’s looking like it should easily be capable of 1 MOA or a bit better, which is plenty good for short-range small game hunting.

- The trigger is a touch heavier than I’d prefer but it’s still miles ahead of what I’m used to having on a .22, and I can always adjust it down to a lower weight. It would really be hard to like the gun at all if it had a rough and heavy trigger pull.

- The threaded muzzle is not gonna be used right now but it’s a reason to save up for a suppressor and ask permission from mommy government to get one. Subsonic .22 ammo with a can on the rifle would be a lot of fun and should also be a great asset for hunting.

- The very short overall length is handy.



Overall I’d say I’m pleased so far and it’s looking like the rifle will turn out to be a very useful tool as well as a fun plinker.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 22, 2019 05:21AM
A handy little rifle, and accurate too. Especially at the price point. Why did you choose savage over marlin, or even CZ?

Can you swap the barrel out for WMR?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 22, 2019 07:44AM
Quote
chad234
Why did you choose savage over marlin, or even CZ?

Can you swap the barrel out for WMR?

I have experience with the Savage MkII’s, and I know a few different gunsmiths who do accurizing work on them, but it mostly came down to what was available in the shop at the time. They had no Marlin bolt-actions, the one CZ 455 they had was an iron sighted model in .17 HMR, the Rugers were all the fancy/expensive models and way outside the price range.

And no I’m pretty sure CZ is the only one that can switch barrels by design, the rest are pressed and pinned or some other type of semi-permanent attachment method.

I was strongly considering a Savage B22 FV (synthetic varmint barrel) .22 Mag that they had, as a .22 Mag is definitely more effective out at 75+ yards, but I just don’t trust the new rifles from Savage because there’s not much use history and no aftermarket stocks available. The forend was touching the stock along one side of the barrel and it had tons of flex in it, meaning a lot of potential work and possibly no realistic solution to get the rifle shooting well.

Whereas the MkII was dead-center down the stock and has dozens of aftermarket parts and stocks and work that can be done either by myself or by a quality smith for very little money.

It’s like betting odds: I’d bet my left hand that I can get the MkII shooting under 1 MOA, but I wouldn’t have the same confidence level in the B22 Magnum.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 22, 2019 07:46AM
Also, the Leupold is just a placeholder on the rifle. It works well enough for now, but eventually I’ll put a Sightron on it, probably the 2-10x32 one.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 22, 2019 08:20AM
Oh and I’ve recently become aware of a major benefit of using plain lead bullets in your .22LR guns:

Once the bore is sufficiently coated with lead and the wax or grease lube, it almost fully prevents rust inside the bore. This is why you can come across old farm guns in the corner of a barn that outwardly look terribly abused and rusted, and then check the bore to find out it’s still pretty much brand-new.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 22, 2019 02:52PM
One other thing that might be a major contribution to the MkII’s accuracy: Fired cases from the Marlin M60 don’t fit in the chamber of the Savage. This suggests the chamber of the Savage is much tighter than the Marlin.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 23, 2019 11:59AM
I really like the Leupold fixed 4x for rimfire. Not too heavy, clear glass.
I’ve considered a sightron for an AR , they seem to have good light transmission despite a smaller objective lens.

Savage has a nice product for the price point for sure. I went with the CZ because I like the wood stock, and it has a great trigger. Mine is in WMR but I got a spare LR barrel. Makes small groups if I do my part.

Most of my .22 shooting had been with the M&P15-22 lately- just too much fun.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 24, 2019 10:11AM
Yeah the Leupold 4 power rimfire scope, I think it’s the FX-1 4x32mm, that would probably be my first choice for a hunting rifle used at 0 to 50 yards, like a traditional rabbit or squirrel gun. The glass is really good and the reticle is the fine duplex style so it’s good for small targets.

The issue with mine is that I had it made by the Leupold custom shop as a purpose-built scope for my deer hunting environment. Parallax was set at 75 yards, the average shot distance in my woods, and the reticle is their German #4 which is excellent for big game in brush and low light. The reticle is really too coarse and subtends (covers) too much of the target for longer range shots on small animals like squirrels’ heads.

The big advantage to the Sightron scopes is really their turret system. It’s extremely reliable and consistent, you can make adjustments all day long and reliably return to zero every time. I think the 3-16x42mm S-TAC model I have is absolutely the most versatile scope you can get for under $600, it’s a fantastic tool. The glass is easily on par with my custom Leupold, the magnification range is very useful for anything from 25 to 1000 yards, the turret system and side focus setup is better than anything by Leupold or Vortex at any price, it’s just a really great piece of equipment all-around.

What I may end up doing is putting the Leupold on my 7mm Rem Mag and putting the Sightron 3-16x42mm on the little .22LR so that I can begin to learn how to read winds and ranges, make and use a drop chart, and actually use the .22LR as a tool to develop the skills necessary to be able to make clean kills on animals out to extreme distances of 600+ yards.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 24, 2019 11:04AM
On sale at OP now too:
[www.opticsplanet.com]

Very tempting
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 24, 2019 12:20PM
If you’re at all curious and can buy it now, I would say do it.

It’s a really great scope and would work on almost any rifle, unless you want more or less magnification or less weight and bulk. Size-wise it’s about the same size as a typical 3-9x40 but the turrets do stick out a ways and it’s about 50% heavier than the average 1” tube 3-9x40mm scope. It feels absolutely bomb-proof compared to any of the traditional 1” tube scopes I have, too. 70 MOA windage and elevation adjustment range also, which is plenty for almost any cartridge’s effective range.

Unless it’s a CQB rifle or a dedicated target gun where you want 30x or more power, it will work very well. Comes with a neoprene scope coat, too.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 24, 2019 12:28PM
One other thing about that scope, I would recommend the basic Duplex reticle unless you’re using it to punch paper or for open-country hunting with lots of available light because the MOA reticle will be very difficult to see in the woods. The Duplex they use is a good middle ground between visibility and a fine aiming point, it would be ideal for most users.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 25, 2019 09:19AM
That's an intersting point about the moa reticle. I've been considering a 1-4 style scope for the 336 and was set on a Nikon with an moa reticle. However, nikons are getting scarce, and Leupold makes a nice 1.5-4x20 with a fine duplex reticle that would be good too.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
December 25, 2019 12:24PM
Me2, it’s an often overlooked point on reticle design. There are only a few ballistic type reticles I’ve seen that are easily visible in the woods or in dim lighting. One of the best are the traditional military Mil Dot reticles, they’re really bold and obvious. I also really liked the Redfield one I had, my uncle has that scope now but it was very good in brush and has a few dots for holdover:




This is one of the better designs I’ve seen because absolutely nothing in the woods is a perfect circle, the aiming point never gets lost in the brush. You could zero at a specific range with your rifle and ammo choice and then just shoot it to find out what distances the two holdover points are hitting at.


Their 2-7x33mm with that reticle would probably be really nice on your .30-30 and the Redfield scopes are made by Leupold, the glass is very good:

[www.amazon.com]
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