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Firearms and Shooting

Posted by Bugout Bill 
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Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 28, 2021 06:06AM
They seem to be a bit of a love-hate thing, Chum, guys either think they’re ugly and hate the DA/SA trigger, or they really like them. I almost bought one but I never quite warmed up to the DA/SA mechanisms. I prefer all one way, meaning DAO, SAO, or striker-fired. It’s just too steep of a learning curve and the DA pulls are rarely as good as a nice revolver unless you’re looking at the more expensive pistols like a CZ Shadow or something.

I don’t know if you guys remember, but I actually had a CX4 Storm Carbine in .45 for a little while. It was pretty interesting and quite potent (185 grain JHP’s would do ~ 1,400 FPS, standard 230 grain ball would do about 950) but ultimately I sold it because of the absolutely awful trigger that would’ve cost several hundred dollars to fix. The pull was so heavy and long that I couldn’t hit my 8” plate past about 30 or 40 yards with any consistency, meaning it’s effective range was only about 40% more than my handgun. I would expect at least double the effective range in order to justify the bulk and weight of the carbine over the pistol.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 28, 2021 03:00PM
I prefer a DA/SA trigger. I've never had problems with the first shot being a little heavier, probably because I started shooting with a Sig p220. Also because DA is the easiest to dry fire practice with. I can like a good striker fired pull, but they are seldom as good as the SA pull on pistol. Carrying cooked and locked is a no-go for me. DA/SA is just safer.

I will say that the trigger on my G43x is very good. I prefer it to any of my other striker fired guns, including my Walther Q5 Match. I don't own any Gen 5 Glocks, but I have read that the G43x has a Gen 5 trigger. Encouraging if I ever buy a Gen 5.

Still, nothing beats a SA revolver pull... nothing. This is probably part of the reason I still consider my Ruger Super Blackhawk to be my most accurate handgun. It is an anniversary model, so I think that also has something to do with it. Probably hand fitted.

I know you like the bigger calibers Ryan. You should get yourself a SA revolver in 44mag and practice fanning it =D


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 28, 2021 03:12PM
It's too bad about the trigger on the Beretta Storm carbine. That looks like a really handy little carbine.

Speaking of carbines, the trigger on the Kelt-tec CMR30 (22mag) is shockingly good. That carbine is fantastic in every way except the most important way... reliability. Ammo selection matters a lot. There are a few companies that sell aftermarket parts for the CMR 30, and one even does some gunsmithing on it. It is so much fun to shoot. It is by far the lightest and most compact carbine I own. It is very accurate. Flat shooting. No recoil. 30 round mags and the ammo weighs nothing. If I can get that thing to be reliable I'll buy two more just to have them.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 28, 2021 03:14PM
If you can't tell from my ramblings, I'm in gun purchasing mode right now smiling smiley


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 28, 2021 07:27PM
Quote
Chum
Still, nothing beats a SA revolver pull... nothing.

In general I agree with that. The modded trigger I did in my S&W 638 was as close to a perfect target/precision trigger as I’ve ever seen, about 2 or 3 pounds and zero creep. Even better than every rifle I’ve used, aside from my current Remington with the TriggerTech.

My Springfield Range Officer 1911 was also extremely good, about 4lbs. and very crisp, no creep and very little overtravel.

For hitting what you’re aiming at and really pushing the limits of your range with a particular gun, a good SA trigger is the way to go.

Right now I can make hits on the 8” plate every time with my G27 out to 25 or 30 yards though, which is plenty good enough for me. A subcompact pistol which I can use effectively at that distance is hard to beat, especially when I can shoot the same gun very well at close distances with a lot of speed. It’s not overly large, 9+1 is enough for me and I rarely even bother to +1 it, and despite it’s size it’s still very competent for both outdoor and urban defense.


Quote
Chum
I know you like the bigger calibers Ryan. You should get yourself a SA revolver in 44mag and practice fanning it =D

That’s really the only gun I’d be interested in purchasing in the future, a S&W 629 .44 with a 5 or 6 inch barrel. Specifically for hunting. It’s kinda the only practical gap in my arsenal, all other bases are covered.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 28, 2021 08:30PM
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Ryan Nafe
That’s really the only gun I’d be interested in purchasing in the future, a S&W 629 .44 with a 5 or 6 inch barrel. Specifically for hunting. It’s kinda the only practical gap in my arsenal, all other bases are covered.

A full-sized 44mag revolver with a scope and a sling, imho, is a really versatile weapon.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 28, 2021 10:41PM
Quote
Chum
A full-sized 44mag revolver with a scope and a sling, imho, is a really versatile weapon.

Yeah it would be an interesting alternative to a rifle. You could use simple cowboy ammo for small game and big JHP’s for deer hunting or defense.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 28, 2021 11:18PM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Quote
Chum
A full-sized 44mag revolver with a scope and a sling, imho, is a really versatile weapon.

Yeah it would be an interesting alternative to a rifle. You could use simple cowboy ammo for small game and big JHP’s for deer hunting or defense.

Agreed. Plus, with a scope I think you can be really accurate to 100 yards. Maybe 150.

It would be a formidable defensive weapon to take hiking or hunting. A lot faster than any bolt or lever action. Lighter as well.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 01, 2021 04:53AM
Just a note for handguns and reloading. Given the current supply issues, reloadong handgun cartridges is really appealing. Everything is hard to find but even a 1lb container of powder yields over 1000 rounds of 9mm. Heavier bullets use less powder and switching to a 147 grain bullet would push that up to about 1500 with my current combination. A 9mm PCC is now on my short list.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 01, 2021 06:20PM
In considering subsonic Underwood Xtreme ammo, using a suppressor, for defense...

- 32acp X-Defender 55gr @ 950fps
- 32acp +P X-Defender 55gr @ 1050fps
- 9mm Makarov X-Penetrator 95gr @ 1050fps
- 38 special X-Penetrator 140gr @ 1000fps
- 45acp +P X-Penetrator 200gr @ 1000fps
- 44 special X-Penetrator 220gr @ 1050fps
- 45 long colt X-Penetrator 250gr @ 1000fps

* 1050fps was my cutoff point for bullet velocity. Bullet variation is likely to push some of these rounds past supersonic speed. Even 1000fps is likely to get you an occasional supersonic crack.

Not too many options here. Very few semi-autos are chambered for 38 special, and coming out of a 16" barrel the 38 special should far exceed 1050fps.

I'm not even sure if a 44 special or 45 long colt exists in a semi-auto. There are lever guns in both calibers, but just like the 38 special once you use a 16" barrel the velocities will far exceed the speed of sound.

It was interesting to me that even standard velocity 380acp was listed at 1100fps.

It looks like 32acp, 45acp, and maybe 9mm Makarov are the only real options other than buying just the bullets from Lehigh Defense and loading your own.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 11, 2021 05:52PM
Expanding ammo for self defense. I don't trust it. Thoughts.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 11, 2021 07:03PM
Quote
Chum
Expanding ammo for self defense. I don't trust it. Thoughts.

I’d say it depends on the cartridge and the bullet design, but if you’re talking about stuff like the normal 9mm/.40 cal/.45 Auto and basic cup-and-core JHP’s, it’s reliable. With really marginal stuff like .32 or .380 auto, I would just stick with an FMJ and train yourself to aim for the CNS.

But if you want high damage and you don’t want to use JHP’s, use a .45 Auto with the 230 grain ball ammo. The wounds are almost indistinguishable from a typical 147 grain 9mm JHP, but you don’t have to worry about the bullet getting clogged or too slowed-down through barriers or heavy clothing.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 12, 2021 01:21AM
Quote
Ryan Nafe

I’d say it depends on the cartridge and the bullet design, but if you’re talking about stuff like the normal 9mm/.40 cal/.45 Auto and basic cup-and-core JHP’s, it’s reliable. With really marginal stuff like .32 or .380 auto, I would just stick with an FMJ and train yourself to aim for the CNS.

There are so many YT videos of people wrapping ballistic gelatin in clothing, and showing hollow points getting clogged up and not expanding.

Some designs expand more reliably than others, but I don't see hollow points as being reliable in general.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 12, 2021 01:59AM
Quote
Chum
Expanding ammo for self defense. I don't trust it. Thoughts.

Anything that will stop expanding ammo will stop fmj. Failure to expand isn't a real issue, still pokes a hole just like fmj. You will probably mag dump the target until you know its not a threat. None of that shoot once and wait to see if it was enough nonsense. Failure to feed and any other related malfunction could cost you your life though.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 12, 2021 03:57AM
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Old Spice
Anything that will stop expanding ammo will stop fmj.

In what sense? FMJ will penetrate better than HPs.


Quote
Old Spice
Failure to expand isn't a real issue, still pokes a hole just like fmj. You will probably mag dump the target until you know its not a threat. None of that shoot once and wait to see if it was enough nonsense. Failure to feed and any other related malfunction could cost you your life though.

HPs are more likely to have a failure to feed.

Everything I have read, plus common sense, says to shoot until the target is no longer a threat.

Anyway, do you have any firearms these days Old Spice, or did your state confiscate them... stupid California.

And speaking of 45s... you guys need to try out a S&W Shield in 45. I can't believe a 45 that small has such low recoil... and it is very accurate, at least I have been very accurate with one. I hate to say it but my buddy's cheapo Shield 45 shoots better than my G43x.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 12, 2021 04:36AM
Quote
Chum
Quote
Old Spice
Anything that will stop expanding ammo will stop fmj.

In what sense? FMJ will penetrate better than HPs.

In the sense of soft stuff. Shooting say a piece a metal for instance, the difference between FMJ and HP will not mater.

Quote
Chum
Anyway, do you have any firearms these days Old Spice, or did your state confiscate them... stupid California.

Disclosing that information is foolish.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 12, 2021 06:15AM
Quote
Chum
There are so many YT videos of people wrapping ballistic gelatin in clothing, and showing hollow points getting clogged up and not expanding.

I don’t think those tests will actually extrapolate in a meaningful way to shooting humans with clothes on. For a better sense of what’s likely to happen, I would recommend combing through Paul Harrell’s videos on YT and also getting a copy of this book:

[www.ballisticstudies.com]

The book is absolutely worth the price if you’re curious about this kind of stuff.

Again though the simplest way to get decent-sized wound channels and very good penetration, enough to produce exit wounds on things like pigs, average black bears, deer, or a person behind some furniture or a car door, is to use a .45 ACP with the basic 230 grain ball ammo. It’s probably the best all-around semiautomatic handgun cartridge. It just pokes ~.50” holes in stuff and does it reliably across a wide range of situations.


Edited for spelling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2021 06:37AM by Ryan Nafe.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 12, 2021 06:22AM
Quote
Chum
And speaking of 45s... you guys need to try out a S&W Shield in 45. I can't believe a 45 that small has such low recoil... and it is very accurate, at least I have been very accurate with one. I hate to say it but my buddy's cheapo Shield 45 shoots better than my G43x.

I had one for a while, put something like 1,250 to 1,500 rounds through it. I had one single malfunction in all that shooting, at around the 700 round count mark, with a 185 grain Remington Golden Saber HP. Can’t remember the exact type of malfunction but a TRB cleared it immediately and the gun ran as-normal for the rest of the time I owned it.

Really solid pistol, highly recommended by me, I only ended up selling mine because I was never happy with the grip and it was on the large side of what I was comfortable carrying at the time. Overall I’m much happier with current sidearm though, it does everything I need it to do and has no significant weaknesses or problems. I have no plans to change it up, it just works.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 12, 2021 06:50PM
Quote
Old Spice
Shooting say a piece a metal for instance, the difference between FMJ and HP will not mater.

That’s kinda true and kinda not true. In the testing that Nathan Foster has done, using car doors with a goat carcass behind them, the car door sometimes (depending mostly on the mass and energy of the projectile, he found, but construction also is a pretty big factor) provides enough resistance on the bullet that it lacks the energy to penetrate the carcass behind it very much and the lethality is diminished quite a bit.

The threshold for the handgun cartridges (he found) is a weight of around 160 grains for the bullet. At and above that, the car door can actually make the wounds somewhat more severe because not only is the bullet still carrying enough energy and momentum to penetrate enough, but it hits the target in a pre-expanded state, making a larger entry wound than normal.

So yes it won’t matter all that much if it’s an HP or an FMJ that hits the door, but it’s weight and construction plays a major role in what happens after impact.

When the bullet weighs less than 160 grains (again talking specifically of handgun cartridges) the construction is pretty important because the door provides a lot of resistance and a basic cup-and-core design JHP (say a 115 or 125 grain 9mm JHP) will often not do well, coming apart and loosing a lot of energy and momentum. An FMJ is much more reliable here, it can help a lot when the bullet is below that 160 grain weight.

Once they get up and over that 160 grain threshold though, even the basic cup-and-core designs are more than adequate, remaining in one piece even after passing through the door, because the bullet simply has a surplus of weight, momentum, and energy so that it will still carry right on through to the target and then penetrate quite a ways through it.



I would really prefer to carry a .45 ACP with 200 or 230 grain JHP’s, the wounding performance is noticeably better than either 9mm or .40 S&W, but I’ve had a very hard time finding a gun in that cartridge that is of a practical size for me to carry.

The runner-up and now what I would call the minimum performance cartridge I’m comfortable with relying on is the .40 S&W. All of the problems with the 9mm that were encountered by LE in the 80’s, stuff like poor performance through barriers and often inadequate penetration at odd angles or on large people, were addressed by the .40 S&W design and it did effectively solve all those problems.

It solved them with physics and mathematics, not by the fancy hyped-up “modern” bullet designs. The bullet weight was increased to that critical 160 grains or higher weight, diameter is slightly greater for slightly wider wounding, and the reduction in magazine capacity and increase in the size of the guns is very minimal. It really is the product-improved 9mm.

The .40 S&W 180 grain cup-and-core JHP is a very reliable and consistent round. It’s got the weight, it’s got enough velocity (900 to 1,000 FPS typically) to expand reliably even at abnormally-long ranges for a handgun, and it doesn’t require any kind of fancy projectile designs in order to work effectively. Simple, inexpensive, effective.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 12, 2021 11:55PM
So you’re telling me I need a new Shield? I can get behind that. Only 1 less round than my 9mm version.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 13, 2021 02:12AM
If you like the 9mm version you’ll probably like the .45 as well. It was a solid gun, no problems with it. I just can’t find anything better for me than my G27 Gen 3, boring though it is.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 13, 2021 03:01PM
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Ryan Nafe
If you like the 9mm version you’ll probably like the .45 as well. It was a solid gun, no problems with it. I just can’t find anything better for me than my G27 Gen 3, boring though it is.

The Shield 45 weighs less than a G27, and the capacity is close. It would be interesting if you did a long term back to back carry and shoot test between the two guns now. Swap back and forth everyday for a month and get at least three back to back shooting sessions. I have changed my opinions on guns and knives after revisiting them.

A friend of mine is currently doing something similar with the Shield 45 and Shield 9mm right now. He said he doesn't notice a difference in carrying, and the 45 shoots better than the 9mm despite the 9mm having a high end after-market trigger and the 45 being stock.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 13, 2021 03:53PM
Quote
Chum
It would be interesting if you did a long term back to back carry and shoot test between the two guns now. Swap back and forth everyday for a month and get at least three back to back shooting sessions. I have changed my opinions on guns and knives after revisiting them.

It would be interesting to do, and I wouldn’t want to write it off completely, but the ergonomics of the G27 are a mile ahead of the S&W for me. For my hand specifically, I’m not claiming they’re better for everyone or something like that.

More hand-filling grip, a more naturally-pointing grip angle, finger grooves, and a longer trigger reach. The Gen 3 Glock ergonomics are just so well-matched to my hand, I shoot them very well with very little effort.

If anything, I’d consider doing a side-by-side with a G30 or G29, the .45/10mm version of the G27. That would give the better performance of the larger cartridges but be only minimally different in terms of handling and muscle memory. But the trouble is that they’re deceptively-larger than the G27. On paper it doesn’t look like much, but a G30 is actually about the size of a G19, just thicker. They’re a pretty big gun to carry, harder to hide and less comfortable than the G27.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 13, 2021 06:33PM
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Ryan Nafe
It would be interesting to do, and I wouldn’t want to write it off completely, but the ergonomics of the G27 are a mile ahead of the S&W for me. For my hand specifically, I’m not claiming they’re better for everyone or something like that.

More hand-filling grip, a more naturally-pointing grip angle, finger grooves, and a longer trigger reach. The Gen 3 Glock ergonomics are just so well-matched to my hand, I shoot them very well with very little effort.

That is huge. How a gun feels in hand is usually the reason I buy it or not.



Quote
Ryan Nafe
If anything, I’d consider doing a side-by-side with a G30 or G29, the .45/10mm version of the G27. That would give the better performance of the larger cartridges but be only minimally different in terms of handling and muscle memory. But the trouble is that they’re deceptively-larger than the G27. On paper it doesn’t look like much, but a G30 is actually about the size of a G19, just thicker. They’re a pretty big gun to carry, harder to hide and less comfortable than the G27.

I've always wanted a G30. Long ago I read an article in some gun magazine where the author put the various Glock models into a ransom rest. The G30 was the most accurate. Massad Ayoob has mentioned that the G30 was the best shooting Glock for him. Both of these tidbits are a couple of decades old however.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 14, 2021 04:14AM
In a lot of ways, if I would’ve just stuck with the plan a bought that Glock 36 years ago when I started really looking for a good carry gun, I probably could’ve been done with it all and been set. I shot that one alongside a G30 and the Shield .45 if I remember correctly, and the G36 was the one I shot best. No prior experience with any of the guns, just picked those three for a test day at the range, and the G36 won handily as far as my ability to shoot it between those three.

I don’t regret anything though, it was an interesting (if expensive) process and the final result is a gun that does everything I need a pistol to do. Urban defense, wilderness defense, short-range hunting of deer and small game, and it’s still a perfectly viable sidearm in a warzone if things go that badly around here.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 14, 2021 04:26PM
I’ve been doing a lot of dry fire practice with my 9mm Shield and M&P 9. I’d hate to think I did all that work when just getting a different gun would have had the same effect. That said a bit of practice never hurts and there has been some improvement with both pistols compared to a few months ago.

I got to see my goal yesterday. There was an older guy on the pistol range with some nice target 22s. Evidently he is/was just below an Olympic class shooter with a pistol. His target was at about 22 yards (20 meters?). He had a single hole group of about 20 shots not just in the X ring, but touching the X. It was both impressive and depressing.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 14, 2021 05:31PM
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me2
I got to see my goal yesterday. There was an older guy on the pistol range with some nice target 22s. Evidently he is/was just below an Olympic class shooter with a pistol. His target was at about 22 yards (20 meters?). He had a single hole group of about 20 shots not just in the X ring, but touching the X. It was both impressive and depressing.

I shoot a lot, but I can't shoot like that... well I can with a rifle spinning smiley sticking its tongue out


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 15, 2021 02:13AM
Oh and he did it with one hand. He literally shoots that much better than me with one hand behind his back.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 20, 2021 07:47AM
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me2
I’ve been doing a lot of dry fire practice with my 9mm Shield and M&P 9. I’d hate to think I did all that work when just getting a different gun would have had the same effect.

What do you mean exactly? I just wanna make sure I understand you correctly.



For the record, my system of using one gun that will work at least acceptably well for everything isn’t necessarily meant to be prescriptive, I mainly use that system because I don’t have the time and money required to get proficient with several different guns. I enjoy using and studying lots of different guns, I find them interesting to deal with, it’s just not practical for me to do it right now. Maybe when I’m older and have more time and money I’ll have more, but right now it’s just not practical.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
March 21, 2021 02:38PM
I just meant that it would be frustrating to put in daily practice with my pistols and see definite improvement only to learn or try a different pistol that I shoot better because of different fit, grip, balance, etc.

I’ve been trying slight grip changes and found with my current grip my Shield fits my hand significantly better than the previous grip. It no longer feels too thin. Whether it means I can shoot it better remains to be seen, but it feels way better.