Firearms and Shooting

This was the factory ammo from HSM. I was pretty disappointed with the muzzle velocity when I actually checked it over the chronograph, it was 2,810 FPS average. Way too low for this cartridge from a 26” barrel. But yes, the accuracy was good enough that I elected to spend the summer doing things other than reloading work. I still get consistent 0.600” to 0.700” groups at 95 yards which I consider more than acceptable for factory ammo in this cartridge and rifle.

The velocity is adequate for now, as evidenced by the above results, but I do really need this bullet to leave the barrel at at least 3,000 FPS for the rifle and cartridge to be at their full potential. If it’s starting out at 3,000 FPS then I’ll get the above performance, practically instant kills, all the way out at 200 yards. In up to a 10mph crosswind, it’d be point-and-shoot out to 200 yards with enough power to drop them like that every time. And on shots in my more typical environment where the average distance is around 75 yards, I’d have even more room for error with shot placement and there’s essentially zero chance of an animal escaping even with a really bad shot to the stomach or hind quarters, it’d simply do so much damage that I’d have plenty of time for an immediate follow-up shot to put it down for real.

The shot was basically broadside. Technically she was quartering away by about 5 degrees but that’s not much, I’d call it a broadside shot.

Nice shot, Ryan!

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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I've always wondered what effect BC has on terminal ballistics. Would be curious to see you try bullets with different BC at the same muzzle velocity.

I know that shot is where Nathan recommends them to be for the fastest kills, especially of the cartridge is capable of breaking the shoulder and continuing, but it looks too far forward. I'm basing this on practice deer targets and the vital zone I remember seeing on them, not actually shooting anything.

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me2
I know that shot is where Nathan recommends them to be for the fastest kills, especially of the cartridge is capable of breaking the shoulder and continuing, but it looks too far forward.

It might look too far forward, but it’s not. To a lot of American hunters it looks very strange because of a cultural tendency to shoot just behind the front shoulder.

In his reply to my email I sent him with the pictures and general notes on performance, he said the following, direct quote:

“Very good shot placement on your part, a solid autonomic plexus shot. Well done!”

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Old Spice
I've always wondered what effect BC has on terminal ballistics. Would be curious to see you try bullets with different BC at the same muzzle velocity.

Do you mean that you’re wondering what BC does with regards to the shape of the bullet (a sleeker, more pointed design with a boattail, vs. a wide round-nose flatbased design) or do you mean the difference in the effect of the higher or lower impact velocity of the bullet, from its BC?

Ok I looked closer and the wound is further back than I thought.

It can be tough to tell from pictures, no worries. If you look at the picture of the heart and lungs it is a little more obvious because the wound looks to be centralized on the area that is between the heart and lungs, as opposed to being mostly inflicted on the lungs or heart or liver. That bundle of nerves and stuff that’s at the core of the cardiovascular system is what the bullet was aimed at and what it hit mostly.

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Ryan Nafe

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Old Spice
I've always wondered what effect BC has on terminal ballistics. Would be curious to see you try bullets with different BC at the same muzzle velocity.

Do you mean that you’re wondering what BC does with regards to the shape of the bullet (a sleeker, more pointed design with a boattail, vs. a wide round-nose flatbased design) or do you mean the difference in the effect of the higher or lower impact velocity of the bullet, from its BC?

Both since my intuition suggests that one might be confounding.

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Old Spice

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Ryan Nafe

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Old Spice
I've always wondered what effect BC has on terminal ballistics. Would be curious to see you try bullets with different BC at the same muzzle velocity.

Do you mean that you’re wondering what BC does with regards to the shape of the bullet (a sleeker, more pointed design with a boattail, vs. a wide round-nose flatbased design) or do you mean the difference in the effect of the higher or lower impact velocity of the bullet, from its BC?

Both since my intuition suggests that one might be confounding.

For the impact velocity as it relates to the effect on target, here’s a quote from Nathan’s recent re-write of the Effective Game Killing article:

“In bore sizes from .243” up to .338”, nervous shut down begins to become evident at impact velocities over 2600fps. Of the thousands of medium game animals harvested during my research, 2600fps has been the most common cut off point.”

That has been deliberately tested, on tens of thousands of animals, by noting the difference between a shot that connects at 2,650 FPS and one that connects at 2,550 FPS. So I would say that a high BC is of vital importance when the hunter wants to make sure that impact velocity stays above 2,600 for as far as it possibly can. That’s what I want from my 7mm Rem Mag and that’s why I moved up to that cartridge from my old standby .308 and .243, I wanna be able to drop them right there in a very reliable manner because I hunt near the property line and also in a lot of terrain that is an absolute nightmare to drag dead animals out of. If I drop them where they stand, it’s just much simpler and cleaner.

The caveat that I would add to this is that the vast majority of hunters have absolutely no understanding of any of this, they just want a high BC number because the marketing machine and the internet hype tells them that it’s cool and stuff. Even people I know who are lifelong hunters and reloaders, decades of experience, are not informed about this stuff and don’t understand it.



As far as bullet shape goes, I’ll start with a series of quotes from the older article on his site:

“As for wide, flat meplats in small bores, the greatest problem with wide meplats in the small bores is that ballistic coefficients are greatly reduced, especially with regard to wind drift. Such changes tend to handicap otherwise flat shooting cartridges with the negatives outweighing any other benefits. Secondly, most small bores have high velocity in their favor, a major proponent in wide wound channel creation negating any need for increased performance.”

“Wide meplats really start to become more and more useful in the .358" caliber and upwards. Many medium bores are utilized at limited ranges of up to 200 to 250 yards and in such cases, the poor BC's created by wide meplats is of little handicap. By simply changing from a pointed soft point to a round nose soft point, many cartridges become fast killers on light or lean game where before the bullet may have carried too much momentum, failing to impart its energy. Results of the change in bullet style in the medium bores are often dramatic on all manner of game. That said, only a very few, mostly custom bullet makers, offer true flat point medium bore projectiles. Most manufacturers offer round nose bullets, nevertheless, the Woodleigh Weldcore, mentioned throughout the medium bore texts, is a good example of a fast killing round nose bullet in comparison to its pointed counterpart. Both of the Woodleigh designs have their strengths which are explained in the medium and big bore texts.”


With the small bore cartridges (.243” to .338”) he has not noticed any significant benefits to the round or flat nose designs. Meaning that there’s little observable difference in effect on target between, for example, a round-nose and a pointed version of the same 7mm diameter hunting bullet. But once you move up in diameter to .358” and above, the differences between a pointed and round or flat nose becomes very obvious, very repeatable, and does offer enough of a benefit to be worth serious consideration for the hunter.

For a broader expansion on this, there are several articles on specific .35 caliber and .375 caliber rifle cartridges in the Knowledgebase section of his site, where he specifically discusses performance differences between the pointed and round-nose versions of the same exact bullets.

I really came close to getting a .35 Whelen, and I would still very much like to get one someday. The versatility of both the .358” and .375” diameter rifle cartridges, when used at more ordinary woods hunting ranges of under 200 yards, is just incredible. The same bullet can cause massive, deep, wide wounds on everything from a tiny yearling whitetail, to a giant bull moose, to a 400 pound and rock-solid black bear. One rifle for all game animals on the continent.

I have been I treated in 35 Whelen for a while. It's rare to find a rifle around here chambered in it. I've been intrigued by it as a caliber since I read my uncles Shooters Bible decades ago.

Do you have any thoughts on the 350 Legend, while were talking about larger bore diameters?

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me2
Do you have any thoughts on the 350 Legend, while were talking about larger bore diameters?

It sits pretty squarely in between the .357 Mag (from a rifle) and the old .35 Remington in power. There’s nothing new or magical about its performance on game, it’s definitely not the legend that the Olin marketing team wants it to be, but it does have its own usefulness if you prefer a semi-auto AR pattern rifle. Even for defensive purposes, not just hunting.

On a related note, my 73 year old grandpa finally managed to kill a deer with the Henry .357 lever action he’s been using for the last few years. I was getting worried that he’d retire from deer hunting before finally doing it.

I was torn between a large caliber AR15 but ended up going with an AR10. That said, it seems like a decent midpoint between the 223/300 BO levels and full 450/458 versions. I feel it may suffer for a lack of bullets tough enough to handle the rifle velocities.

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me2
I feel it may suffer for a lack of bullets tough enough to handle the rifle velocities.

The last time spoke to Nathan about that cartridge, which was some months ago, he wasn’t sure if the bullet diameter would be .357” or .358”. That would be the crux of the issue with bullet selection for that cartridge, since there’s a big difference in available bullets that would, as you mentioned, not completely come apart at those velocities.

He also mentioned that there is always an element of the military/LE groups using hunters as a test bed for these kinds of cartridges in the AR platform, and I happen to believe that the .350 Legend would probably be an extremely effective anti-personnel cartridge in urban settings where ranges are generally close and there’s often a strong need for immediate incapacitation. Properly loaded, the .223/5.56mm is definitely effective, but a 180 grain .35 cal bullet moving at around 1,800 to 2,000 FPS when it hits a person is a guaranteed kill. A chest shot is gonna put a person down immediately and a stray round to a limb could nearly cut it off depending on the size of the limb.

I think it would be an excellent close range cartridge, but more manageable than something like a 458 or 450 caliber. Lonestar boars on the tube tested it on smallish hogs up to about 75 yards and got good results. They were about 100 lbs give or take.

It would work well, but keep in mind that the increase in recoil of something like .450 Bushmaster or .458 Socom isn’t for nothing. They kick harder but they also produce much wider wounding and will put down animals even faster. The .450 Bushmaster is a seriously powerful cartridge for deer or pigs at woods ranges, it has both increased weight and increased diameter over the .350 and you give up nothing in velocity, either. It’s an increase in power across the board.

For my area a 450 BM or 458 Socom would be great. Most distances are less than 100 yards, but with practice either would cover to 200. I would assume Nathan's info on 45 70 would apply to either of the others as well?

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me2
I would assume Nathan's info on 45 70 would apply to either of the others as well?

To the .458 SOCOM, yes. The .450 Bushmaster is slightly different because it uses .452” pistol bullets, instead of the .458” rifle bullets of the .45-70. But I’ve seen pictures of the results of the .450 Bushmaster in one of his books and it’s quite potent. Inside of 100 yards, using the common Hornady 250 grain ammo, it would be very very effective on deer. If they don’t go down immediately from the hydrostatic shockwave, they’ll stagger around a bit like they’re drunk and be down for good in a very short amount of time. It’s a pretty underrated cartridge I think.

So the 450 BM doesn't suffer from fragility with the 0.452 pistol bullets? Is there enough variety of 450 BM bullets now for various uses? I'd imagine it's still quite potent with even a 230 gr FMJ. No expansion but still nearly half inch at 1800 to 2000 fps.

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me2
So the 450 BM doesn't suffer from fragility with the 0.452 pistol bullets? Is there enough variety of 450 BM bullets now for various uses?

The stuff in the factory ammo is designed for those velocities but you’ll have to be somewhat careful with handloading. The good news is that there is quite a wide variety of bullets that are designed for the .454 Casull and +P .45 LC that would work very well in the Bushmaster. If you’re after deer, it can actually be better to use bullets that are a little bit softer because they’ll really expand instantly and fragment a little bit, it’ll be very explosive. But for pigs it would be better to pick a tougher bullet.

Also, the absolute ultimate in versatility for that cartridge would be something from Hawk Custom Bullets:

[hawkbullets.com]


The 300 grain, .452” diameter, hollow point with the .025” thick jacket. That would be excellent for deer and hogs both, the soft bullet will expand very quickly on deer but the lower velocity and decent weight will mean quite acceptable performance on pigs. Plenty of penetration and very little weight loss. These bullets are very ductile in nature, much different than most bullets available today.

This conversation for some reason made me thing of 7.62x39 vs 300 Blackout in an AR-15 platform.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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I don't remember hearing much good about 7.62x39 in an AR platform, except the PSA version that has the different lower receiver and takes AK magazines. Unless I specifically wanted to shoot supressed subsonic ammo, I probably wouldn't get into a 300 BO, particularly since 350 Legend is a thing. There is a part of me that wants a supressed 300 BO though. It's the same part that wants a supressed 45-70 lever action shooting 405 gr or heavier bullets, or a supressed 357/38 lever action.

I'm with you on the suppressed lever action. Leaning towards 45LC these days.

That is an excellent idea the more I think about it. I will look into that some more.

Definately leaning toward 45 Colt for the suppressed lever action. Up to 300 grain bullets, naturally subsonic, and removes some of the feeding issues of using Special size ammo in Magnum caliber lever guns.

I finished my A4 rifle today with 20" barrel and rifle length gas system. I think I'm going to have to find some competitions. Service rifle for the A4. There are a couple near here with rimfire coming up. I could start there and move to centerfire. I have enough rimfire ammo that I could spare some for practice and competition. Oddly, 308 and 30-30 are the next easiest to get.

Pure manliness. His stubby 45/70 lever is spitting out 525 grains at 1400fps.

[youtu.be]


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member

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tarantella
I'm with you on the suppressed lever action. Leaning towards 45LC these days.

I've been wanting a suppressed 44mag and/or 357 mag lever action forever now. I just haven't been able to pull the trigger, pun intended, on a suppressor purchase. The idea of waiting a year for something I've already paid for... is super annoying.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member

Chum,
Free men shouldn't have to ask permission.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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jasonstone20
Chum,
Free men shouldn't have to ask permission.

True, but I'm not going to risk jail for an illegal can.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member