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Firearms and Shooting

Posted by Bugout Bill 
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Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 18, 2016 01:55PM


It's that time of year fellas.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 18, 2016 03:55PM
Ryan: October 1st is the start of that in Illinoise. I am expecting some people to be missing from work that week.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 18, 2016 04:10PM
Yeah Bill, hunting season around here is usually when people take the most time off from work. I haven't been bow hunting in a few years but I've been practicing over the summer with my recurve and I'm confident enough to hit the woods. The archery season just started yesterday for Wisconsin. I'm never going to use a compound again and the only way I'll use a crossbow is when I get too old to use a recurve.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 08:09AM
Question... If you were to open carry a handgun, what is your weight limit?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 08:22AM
I can't find the quote, it was from OldSpice. We were discussing what we wanted and what we didn't want in a gun, and OldSpice said something like... "Why don't you just make your own gun?"

This has been where my mind has been as of late (in regards to guns.) Does anyone have a clue where to begin on such a venture? I have some very specific ideas of what I want and don't want in a handgun. I am (price prohibitive) thinking I would like to have my own gun design guilt. Does anyone have an idea where you would start something like this? I do not.

I know one of this forum's infrequent posters is a titanium knife/sword maker. I'm envisioning an all titanium revolver. Is this feasible? Can titanium withstand the pressures required of a revolver?

I'm asking a lot in this post. If someone could point me in the right/any direction for this endeavor, it would be appreciated.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 12:00PM
Chum,
Check YouTube. I have seen homemade guns, and guns made on 3D printers.
I wouldn't want to open carry anything heavier than a S&W 5906.

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Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 02:40PM
I wouldn't want an all-titanium revolver personally. The ones I've fired (smith air weight) were not enjoyable at all.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 03:38PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Chum,
Check YouTube. I have seen homemade guns, and guns made on 3D printers.
I wouldn't want to open carry anything heavier than a S&W 5906.

I'll do that Jason. Do you think tolerances would be high enough to make a quality firearm via 3D printer? I don't really understand those things. They are like magic.



Quote
Ryan Nafe
I wouldn't want an all-titanium revolver personally. The ones I've fired (smith air weight) were not enjoyable at all.

I have an S&W Airweight 442. It isn't actually that bad as long as you aren't using +p loads. It isn't what I would call fun to shoot for extended periods, but it isn't bad for putting a few practice rounds through.

This being said, I want a .380 acp revolver that would be larger than J frame. Weird, but that is what I want... for a variety of reasons.

Back to the 3D printer idea. I am not going to do anything illegal... just throwing that out there, in case it might be.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 05:08PM
Chum, if you want a revolver that's larger than a J frame, yet very lightweight, you should totally check out the LCRx-3. It's a .38 but otherwise it's similar to what you're describing. And fairly cheap

Does anyone here bow hunt? If so, what grain (weight) of broadhead are your arrows set up for? I'm currently using 125 grain heads but I think it was a mistake to not go with at least a 200 grain head. And another question, why are modern archers seemingly obsessed with speed? I don't get it.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 05:16PM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Chum, if you want a revolver that's larger than a J frame, yet very lightweight, you should totally check out the LCRx-3. It's a .38 but otherwise it's similar to what you're describing. And fairly cheap.

I like that gun, but that isn't what I want. What I want doesn't currently exist, at least not by large manufacturers.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 05:36PM
Chum: Ignoring the start up costs, an all ti revolver is going to be extremely expensive. I recall a number of m1911s produced with Ti frames that were about $6k.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 07:33PM
Quote
Chum
...but that isn't what I want.

I know, I just meant as a way to try something that's that approximate size and caliber
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 08:42PM
Quote
Bugout Bill
Chum: Ignoring the start up costs, an all ti revolver is going to be extremely expensive. I recall a number of m1911s produced with Ti frames that were about $6k.

I'm aware it will be an expensive venture.



Quote
Ryan Nafe
I know, I just meant as a way to try something that's that approximate size and caliber

Ah, ok. I'm not actually sure what size I want this theoretical titanium, revolver. I would like an 8 round cylinder. I'm thinking a 5 inch barrel or longer. I also like the idea of a 6 o'clock barrel to lower the bore axis (a la Mateba or Chiappa Rhino.) I really like the idea of a semi-auto revolver (also like a Mateba 6 Unica.)



This would probably be bulkier than I like however.

On another note...






Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 20, 2016 08:47PM
Chum: I'll have a more detail response tonight.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 21, 2016 01:14AM
I had the Bulldog Pug in stainless. Decent gun to shoot, not bad to carry in a good holster, my brother took a liking to it. Sometimes his now.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 21, 2016 01:19AM
Chum: Here are the problems I see with the idea of a titanium revolver.

Production: You are gonna have a hell of a time finding someone (let alone a company) who has the equipment and the experience to machine a revolver frame, cylinder, and similar from titanium. That is a little beyond milling out aluminum, so you would have to find someone with either aerospace manufacturing experience or a very well equipped firearms skunk works like Knight's Armament.

Material: Why titanium? Are you really going to notice the improvement in weight over aluminum and will that be worth the expense? You are still going to have to use metal in some components as ti on ti will gall. Additionally, you are going to need to either hard anodize or surface harden certain components.

Cost: Consider that botique revolvers (i.e. Korth) originally sold for north of 6K. The mass produced American models start at $3.5K for the large model. You add to that the expense of machining, materials, ect, the cost is going to be beyond what anyone but an eccentric with very deep pockets would be willing to spend.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 21, 2016 04:21AM
All good points Bill. I'm just starting to give this design-my-own-gun idea some thought, so your input is appreciated.

I liked the idea of titanium because I don't want another polymer gun (although I may end up getting another down the road) and I want a lightweight gun, at least for it's size. Titanium seems a little more exotic and interesting than aluminum.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 21, 2016 04:46AM
I would recommend getting a mill, tooling for working steel, and some good precision measurement tools as a start chum. Learn some software and start designing with ease of construction in mind. Look at patents for all the 19th century guns. Then 20th century, and maybe 21th to understand how stuff progressed. But more importantly how stuff fits together.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 21, 2016 05:20AM
Quote
Old Spice
I would recommend getting a mill, tooling for working steel, and some good precision measurement tools as a start chum. Learn some software and start designing with ease of construction in mind. Look at patents for all the 19th century guns. Then 20th century, and maybe 21th to understand how stuff progressed. But more importantly how stuff fits together.

Thanks Old Spice. I will take your advice.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 21, 2016 07:43AM
Quote
chad234
I had the Bulldog Pug in stainless. Decent gun to shoot, not bad to carry in a good holster, my brother took a liking to it. Sometimes his now.

A good interview of the owner at NRA 2016. This makes me want one even more...





The Boomer with a laser sight is an interesting combo. Get up off me at close range to using the laser at longer ranges. This eliminates trying to line up sights, makes it very intuitive, and I expect very fast. I have been practicing with a laser sight quite a bit lately and I can see the benefits.






Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 24, 2016 04:48AM
Apologies if someone mentioned this in the thread somewhere, and I missed it...

has anyone here actually shot a Glock 10mm?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 24, 2016 04:57AM
Quote
Chum
Apologies if someone mentioned this in the thread somewhere, and I missed it...

has anyone here actually shot a Glock 10mm?

OK, scanned through the thread and read that Chad owns a Glock in 10mm... what is the kick and accuracy like Chad? How does it compare to say the Sig p220?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 24, 2016 02:41PM
Chum: With a lot of ammo it isn't gonna be much different than .40.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 24, 2016 03:16PM
Quote
Bugout Bill
Chum: With a lot of ammo it isn't gonna be much different than .40.

True, but if you use what I would call "real" 10mm ammo it is right on par with, and sometimes surpasses, .357 magnum. The Glock 20 is about as much firepower as you can possibly need in a standard handgun. You get 15 +1 rounds of .357-level power in a very reliable and simplistic weapon. It may be sort of boring and ubiquitous, being a Glock, but I don't see much else that offers the same things for the same price.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 24, 2016 03:51PM
Ryan: Exactly. The underwood or buffalo bore stuff is by all accounts what 10mm is "supposed" to be. I'd rather have an EAA Witness just cause it has more flair, but a Glock 20 is gonna solve most two and four legged problems.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 25, 2016 12:30AM
Chum, your timing is good. I spent some time at the range today. While I did shoot some other guns, the core of todays shoot was with my pair of full sized Glocks, the G21 in .45ACP and the 10mm G20.

Like Ryan said, these guns offer an excellent balance of size, weight and firepower. Take for example the G20, with the +2 magazines, it is running 17+1 rounds. That is like a full size revolver with two speed loaders. With the capability to shoot full bore 10mm, like the excellent Underwood 165 or 180 grain, it offers ballistics between .357 and .41 Magnum performance. The G21 is very soft shooting, comparable in recoil impulse and muzzle flip to a 9mm G19. With full power loards, the G20 is ferocious. Serious recoil and muzzle blast. Comparable to shooting .357 loads out of a snub nosed revolver- but with a faster rate of fire.


At home, I normally keep the Streetlight TLR1 flashlight on the G21, but at the range I often switch it to the G20 to add a couple ounces of forward weight. I admit to being somewhat recoil sensitive, and after a magazine of full power 10mm get increasingly flinchy. Given what you describe shooting .44, this would not be a problem for you.

So today, given that I wanted to run through some 400 rounds of ammo, I switched to a .40 S&W LWD barrel in the G20. Shooting 180gr Winchester rounds, the recoil and muzzle flip are about as mild as my Shield 9mm. This same round is quite snappy in my compact G23. This is a nice feature to the Glocks, with a simple barrel (and sometime magazine) switch, you can alternate calibers and add versatility. They key is to buy the largest caliber pistol, and you can swap in smaller barrels. You can’t upsize to larger calibers due to the size of the muzzle cut out in the slide.

Accuracy on the full sized Glocks is certainly acceptable for serious work. Certainly on par with my Sig P220 for example. Frankly, the guns are capable of better shooting than I am. Both guns have LWD 3.5# connectors and polished internals. The trigger and handling are near identical. I really don't have a preference between the grip materials, Talon vs Brooks Agrip. Both are excellent additions.


If I lived in Alaska, or even Northern Michigan, one of these pistols would take the place of my Shield as a regular carry gun. For that kind of carry, adding a 460 Rowland barrel for the G21 for 44 mag level performance may be a nice option!

video: [youtu.be]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2016 12:51AM by chad234.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 25, 2016 12:30AM
video: [youtu.be]
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 25, 2016 03:57AM
Chum, about your own gun...

If you want a revolver, you would likely be far better off starting with a production gun of some sort. If nothing else, it would keep someone from having to design from scratch. You could make or have made as many parts as you like, perhaps in stages. Something like a K or L-frame, then start changing out parts. Or an SP101, or the Bearcat. Obviously much cheaper to build a new grip frame than to design and build one...

Ti is expensive, and extremely slow to machine. Something on the order of 1/7 the speed of aluminum. Also, some parts will show no benefit from being Ti; if they don't need the strength, it is just bling... and slightly heavier than Al. Grip frame?

Usually guys will get something built or chambered in a caliber, anything, so they can start playing with the cartridge. See if you like how it behaves, and if you change your mind, before investing multi-thousands in the project. You could probably get a Blackhawk and custom cylinder for less than 1K.

Bill is right about getting a mill and tools, but that is only the path if you want to spend many thousands and many hours learning to be a machinist- BEFORE you start building the gun you want. Better if you are trying to build something simple, or if you want to learn machine work. I know, because I thought, "wouldn't it be neat to build compensators and thread barrels for nothing?". Ended up starting a business to pay for the tooling and experience, and still don't have any compensators to show for it.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 25, 2016 04:21AM
About the 10mm... I have quite a bit of experience with them, and Glocks.

The 20 differs from the 21 in the breech face width and also the 21 slide has some lightening cutouts. You *can* run a 10mm barrel in a 21, but the barrel hood will have a small gap on each side. Still works fine. On the smaller glocks, caliber changes work similarly. The breech face differs, and ejector, everything else is similar.

The 10 is a strange cartridge. It offers about 200 ft/sec over .40 with similar bullet weight. MOST factory loadings are a) personal defense bullets and b) 50 ft/sec over .40. Recoil is what you would expect looking at those #s. The lighter loads feel like .40 in a full size pistol, the heavier ones are a bit snappier. More than a .45, less than .357 out of smaller guns. Maybe closer to 9mm in smaller pistols.

If using HP bullets, the additional speed does basically nothing, or worse than nothing. Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, and Underwood all offer heavy bullet lead loads. The Buffalo Bore and Underwood are (at least last time I looked) truncated cone style; this is one of the worst bullets available. It tends to tumble 180* and veer in the process. Double Tap offers an actual wide metplat hunting style bullet. Unfortunately, they tend to be inconsistent in manufacture, and ultimately risky. The only ones I would purchase are Buffalo Bore, but then there are still no good projectiles in the lineup for heavier game. Only way to make it fly is to purchase component bullets and reload.

There is much ado about 'real' 10mm. There is no such thing, at least today. The problem arises from original Norma ammo being OVERloaded, averaging about 44Kpsi. Boom- 200@1200. Today, SAAMI spec is 36Kpsi. At that level, you can't get much more than 200@1100ish with a jacketed bullet. Enter the boutique makers and handloaders, who feel that 200@1200 is just a place to start! They pretend that they are just running closer to the 36Kpsi limit, but realistically they are far exceeding it. It works, for most, right up until it doesn't. Whatever Buffalo Bore sells will be on the ragged edge with the best powder available. If anything is faster, it is guaranteed that is a little bomb.

So is it worth it? I don't know. 10mm sucks unless .40 is not enough, you have proper projectiles available, can tolerate the larger gun and recoil, can afford to practice with it, and are ok with the somewhat minimal power available. Decide whether proper factory ammuntion and horsepower (.357 Mag and Up) are worth more or less than platform (Glock 20, 1911, or Witness/CZ75) and you will have a good idea as to whether 10mm is for you.

First pic is G20 Gen 3 w/ extended barrel, grip reduction and stipple, weighted mag base and fiber optic front sight. Second pic is 10mm with proper bullet shape loaded into .40 brass between a 9mm and 44 mag. All operate at same pressure, so performance is proportionate to case size, with .44 being able to make better use of barrel length.Target was 25yds offhand shot cold with .40 s&w in the 10mm barrel. Hole w/ orange line was sighter to see what they would do for elevation.





Vid is shooting heavier? loads through compensator at dusk. Comp keeps gun shooting flatter, but muzzle rise is turned into straight back recoil. You can see it pushing back at the end. Lighter bullets with more powder would make comp work even better, but be snappier. Prefer gun w/out comp, just due to size. Is nicer to shoot with it.

video: [youtu.be]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2016 05:16AM by Any Cal..
Re: Firearms and Shooting
September 25, 2016 01:25PM
Any Cal: Thanks for that input, 10mm was an interesting cartridge where the myth actually became fact.

I'd still want hot 10mm though. Because that was what Sonny Crockett used.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.