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Firearms and Shooting

Posted by Bugout Bill 
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Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 19, 2016 09:55PM
Me2: Here are the ghost rings on my shotgun



They are a huge improvement over a bead sight.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

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Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 19, 2016 10:17PM
Me2... just my opinion, but I don't believe shotguns are the best choice for home defense, for many reasons. I believe you are better off with a handgun or pistol caliber carbine.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 20, 2016 12:31AM
Why is that?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 20, 2016 12:48AM
Me2: There is a lot to screw up. They are fine if you practice with them, but you have to do a lot of practicing.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

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me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 20, 2016 01:23AM
Are they somehow more prone to error than any other firearm. Are they more complicated?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 20, 2016 01:34AM
Me: More potential for operator error. Also, given that the round is not captive when feeding like a bolt gun, there is more potential for things to go wrong if the gun is suddenly jostled.

The most common malfunction that an operator can induce is short-shucking the shotgun, where the action has not been completely racked forward or back. You can also induce a double feed too, which is a really bad situation to deal with under stress. I should also add that short shucking is really only a problem with pump guns. The only complicated human action on a tube fed semi-auto is reloading.


Like anything, you can train your way out of these problems, too. To paraphrase the late firearms instructor Louis Awerbuck, shotguns are the bastard sons of self-defense weapons. For all their problems, they will be around forever.

I would almost say try and find a cheap Maverick 88 (Mossberg's economy guns, barely $200, less used), go to an outdoor range, and just run a bunch of cheap target ammo through it on multiple targets. Actually try and do it under stress. That will bring out just about every issue with a pump shotgun. Then realize that a semi-auto is only going to solve half of the issues.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2016 01:36AM by Bugout Bill.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 20, 2016 02:43AM
Can you elaborate on the round is not captive part? Is it not captive in a chamber in a pump or auto as much as any other auto in a pistol or rifle, or is the action of a pump or auto shotgun significantly different from brass case guns?

So far the only specific issue is short shucking, which is unique to one action. I can't see effectiveness being a problem. Are the other shortcomings severe enough to make them inferior vs other types of firearms?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 20, 2016 02:57AM
Me2: When you rack back the action on a pump gun, the shell is essentially free until your rack it forward and chamber it. You can rattle the shell out of the action if you really wanted to.

The only issue all tube fed guns have is reloading, it is quite slow and demanding compared to mags. But they are effective, provided you chose the appropriate ammo.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2016 02:59AM by Bugout Bill.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 20, 2016 08:19AM
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me2
The purpose would be mainly my desire to have a shotgun. Practically, it would be something like a shorter barreled pump for home use. I don't hunt anymore, though when I did it was with a bow or .410 single barrel shotgun. I was not terribly successful, as you might guess, but it was fun. I was looking at a couple 18.5" barrel pump models available at the local Cabela's. How is reliability with a pump vs. an auto? I've heard people say both were unreliable to various degrees, depends on who you ask.

How about gauge? 12 seems standard. I was used to my brother using 2.75" 12 gauge shells when we hunted, but I see 3" too. How about slugs vs. shot? Obviously hunting would depend on the type of prey, shot for birds, slugs or heavy shot for larger/slower critters.

Pump is classic shotgun. Pump reliability is high unless operator malfunctions, which isn't typical. Don't know if I have ever seen anyone mess up with a stock pump. Combo packs with long and short barrels are easily available.

Auto reliability depends on cleanliness mostly. Auto also tends to hold fewer rounds for equivalent weight, and at times is a bit tougher to load than pump. Also costs more.

Doubles rock. Super compact, reliable, balance well. Drawbacks are typically expense, weight, and limited capacity. Best action type if you want to get into trap or skeet. Also look mean w/ 18" bbls, and uber compact.

Typically you will be shooting 2.75" shot shells. Best for range use, and cheap. Slugs or buck will depend on local hunting regs, but both tend to be really short range. Literally hundreds of shot shells spent for every single slug or buck.

The rifle sights like Bills are the bee's knees for defensive shotgunning, but good field gunning doesn't even use the bead sight much. Just depends on your uses. A field gun won't usually have shell holders or extended magazine, and will swing far better for hitting fast targets. The defensive guns tend to be more about multiple ammo types and extended capacity, so balance is not considered as much.

Buy the first Win/Rem/Moss pump you can find cheap ($175 or less used), and shoot it for a while. 99.9% chance it will be fine. Learn to sight down the bbl properly, then start shooting it. After a couple boxes a week for a few months, you will have a good idea about your likes and dislikes. Then you can sell it or fix it to your liking. If you aren't going to shoot it much, then maybe the double is best. Easiest to make safe, and easiest to point.

12g is good, but 20g could be cool too. Typically a smaller frame, so gun is lighter. Still easy to get ammo for. No idea about them, only shot two of them in my life. Ammo weighs less and is smaller, good if you are packing it around. Probably better for small game and equal on closer shots, falls down as need for payload increases. Less recoil for range use in equal weight guns.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 20, 2016 04:26PM
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me2
Why is that?

I agree with Bill that more can go wrong with a shotgun, especially a pump shotgun. Shotguns, in general, are a pain to reload.

Handguns and carbines are much faster and easier to reload.

Handguns and carbines are less likely to blow your eardrums out (caliber dependent.)

Handguns and carbines give you more precision. You may be able to hit things easier with a shotgun, but if you have to make sure you don't hit something near your target then a shotgun is a poor choice.

Recoil is generally going to be considerably more with a shotgun. Even a .410 pump will kick harder than a .45acp carbine.

Handguns have the added bonus of being usable with just one hand, allowing you to do all sorts of things... hold a flashlight, hold and use a cell phone, push an attacker off of you, pick up your child, hold a non-lethal weapon (ie. pepper spray, taser, stun gun.) Perhaps your main shooting hand gets injured, you can use your other hand to shoot a handgun.

Handguns are also much more maneuverable in tight quarters.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 20, 2016 11:31PM
I like those ghost ring sights. I have a different perspective than y'all on scatterguns. I think for most people, with a little training they are far superior for home defense over a handgun. From a power factor perspective, they are not even close. I don't recommend room clearing exercises for the general public. Rather, I would recommend taking a place of cover and calling for the law-enforcement cavalry.

Shotguns will generally have a higher hit ratio on man-size target a room distance under stress. This is the consequence of the shoulder fire not the mythical spread at such a distance.

However my perspective comes from having been trained on the shotgun as a law-enforcement officer, before the days of the patrol rifle. The major disadvantage to the shotgun is obviously recoil. However this can be mitigated by going with a 20 gauge over the larger 12 gauge. 20 gauge is still plenty powerful.

With the exception of concealment, the shotgun is also far more versatile and can be used for many sporting applications.

I'll also respectfully disagree with respect to your reliability assessment. While I pump action shotgun is more prone to user air, from a mechanical perspective a high-quality shotgun is incredibly reliable. Look at the testing done of the Mossberg 590 and the incredible wealth of experience with the Remington 870.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 12:23AM
+1 to what Chad said.

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Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 12:33AM
C4 is best home defense choice.



Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 10:30AM
I agree with Chum on the pistol caliber carbine, especially something like a lever action .357. Significant ballistic increase in a more stable platform. Faster follow up shots than a shotgun depending on action type. Penetration may be an issue in some homes. As Chum mentioned, the plus side to a handgun are one handed operation, some have higher capacity and are easier to reload, added concealment for out of the home defense. Otherwise, hand guns are hard to shoot and underpowered compared to a shotgun. I think both the reload and capacity issues are not significant for home defense, 5 rounds of 00 or #4 buck should handle any non-Hollywood scenario.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 12:00PM
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chad234
I'll also respectfully disagree with respect to your reliability assessment. While I pump action shotgun is more prone to user air, from a mechanical perspective a high-quality shotgun is incredibly reliable. Look at the testing done of the Mossberg 590 and the incredible wealth of experience with the Remington 870.

I'm not arguing this, and I don't think Bill or Any Cal is either. User error is the problem. Loading a shotgun isn't as intuitive as loading a handgun or carbine. Also, you can screw up chambering a new round in a pump action, by not racking it hard enough.

Here's another issue with a shotgun, regarding recoil. In the heat of a home invasion break in moment, you may not get that butt on your shoulder squarely. With a lightweight 12 gauge and heavy loads (which most of the home defense rounds seem to be) you can mess up your shoulder. This can lead to follow up shot problems.

Me2... if you are looking for something for home defense, and you don't want a handgun, consider a pistol caliber carbine. There are many on the market from a host of lever actions to several semi autos. Very easy to shoot at close and medium ranges. If you have a decent amount of property (ie a farm) then a carbine would definitely be a great choice. You will be far more accurate at longer ranges than you will with a pistol or shotgun. They are fun to plink with as well =D


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 02:33PM
Chum the potential for hurting your shoulder seems unimportant in that adrenaline will be making stuff like that not noticeable until long after the event.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 03:16PM
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Ryan Nafe
Chum the potential for hurting your shoulder seems unimportant in that adrenaline will be making stuff like that not noticeable until long after the event.

When your body takes damage it doesn't function as well it could otherwise. Mess up your shoulder on the first shot, and it will effect your next shot.

All the manly BS is just that. If a weapon has the potential to injure you when you use it, that is something to consider.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 05:27PM
Well I'm not saying that what you said isn't true or isn't a real possibility, I'm just saying that if you're literally in a gun battle and you don't have extensive training or experience, you're gonna be so adrenalized that you likely wouldn't notice it.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 05:33PM
Chum: I disagree regarding shotguns and recoil. Standard 00 buck does not have all that punishing of recoil, no different than a .308. No bs, I can burn through a full box of target load shells and be fine. If the recoil is an issue with that, that is a training issue, and shotguns are probably the most training intensive gun to use.

Regardless, regular practice is crucial with anything you are intending to use as a weapon.

Ryan: Reacquiring sight picture is probably the biggest argument against high recoil weapons. Hence why shotguns tend to have fast acquisition sights.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 05:35PM by Bugout Bill.
me2
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 07:07PM
What kind of velocity difference between a carbine and pistol and why? The notion of a handgun and carbine sharing ammo has always appealed to me.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 07:23PM
Recoil matters mostly for 1)potential best time shot-to-shot and 2)motivation to practice.

It isn't that a hard or long recoiling firearm doesn't work, it just doesn't work as well in some applications. The biggest qestion is whether you NEED to shoot faster than your firearm type/cartridge/training allow you to. Most people can rip off a mag of .22 quickly, and they get slower as shots get farther or recoil gets heavier.

I have a low opinion of pistol caliber carbines because the blowback action makes them much slower to shoot than they should be for their power. Soft but loooong recoil.

I have a low opinion of handguns for those who don't shoot much, because they are basically worthless in their hands. It doen't matter that they CAN shoot them one handed if they CAN'T shoot them with two. Who cares what capacity or reload ability is if they can't hit with them?

Most of the discussion is semantics, as without training, there are NO good choices, and with it, there are many. I told a guy the handgun he was looking at was amazing, nice to shoot, and out of production. He got all excited, fumbled with it, and released the mag onto the floor. Was it good for him? No. Was it good for someone that could use it? Yes.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 10:45PM
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Bugout Bill
Chum: I disagree regarding shotguns and recoil. Standard 00 buck does not have all that punishing of recoil, no different than a .308. No bs, I can burn through a full box of target load shells and be fine.

Load your shotgun with standard 00, bring it up quickly to shoulder level, keep it about 1 inch from your shoulder and fire. Or, bring the shotgun up, put the top edge of the butt against the bottom of your armpit crotch and fire. After doing that, consider if either of those could effect your next shot.




Quote
Bugout Bill
If the recoil is an issue with that, that is a training issue, and shotguns are probably the most training intensive gun to use.

I totally agree, and that is a negative of the shotgun. It isn't as intuitive or forgiving as a carbine or handgun. This is, imo, is con for the shotgun in a self defense situation.




Quote
Ryan Nafe
Well I'm not saying that what you said isn't true or isn't a real possibility, I'm just saying that if you're literally in a gun battle and you don't have extensive training or experience, you're gonna be so adrenalized that you likely wouldn't notice it.

I don't know exactly how adrenaline is going to effect one person to the next in one situation to the next. Maybe Cliff, for instance, happens upon a tribe of Black Spiral Dancer Werewolves, sacrificing virgins in the woods. Cliff gets slashed, then Hulks out with adrenaline and slaughters the entire tribe with his trusty Aranyik Heavy Cleaver. Perhaps if I happened upon the same evil pack of werewolves and was slashed, my adrenaline would make me twice as fleet of foot as normal, and I would survive a good 20 seconds in a sprint before the werewolves got me... as opposed to only 5 seconds without the adrenaline coursing through my veins.

I've been in some hairy situations where I thought I could get killed. I still felt pain getting punched and kicked. Pain, also, isn't really the issue in a life or death situation. If you break a leg, you aren't going to be able to run far regardless of adrenaline. If you dislocate your shoulder with a shotgun, you probably aren't going to continue to shoot very well regardless of adrenaline.

spinning smiley sticking its tongue out






Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 11:27PM
Any Cal... yes, you need to practice with whatever it is you are using.

Me2... the cheapest ammo to practice with is .22 followed by 9mm. There are several cheap .22lr carbines, the most popular being the Ruger 10/22. If you think you might like a more powerful pistol caliber carbine, but you don't want to shell out a lot of money on something you aren't sure if you would like or not...

Hi-Point 9mm Carbine


Yes, it is butt ugly. It is also cheap, uses cheap 9mm ammo, and it works. There are many, many YT videos of people shooting and liking these carbines. Generally they are surprised at how much they like them. MSRP starts at $315.00. You can find these all day on Gunbroker.com for less than $300.00

You can't go wrong with a lever action in either .38special/.357mag or .44special/.44mag. Power and versatility. They also look great if you like the more traditional guns. My Winchester in.44 is one of my favorite guns to shoot. The Henry lever actions are very nice. Marlins are nice.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 21, 2016 11:39PM
Me2: Higher velocity due to longer barrel allowing more complete burn of powder.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 04:06AM
Enough about that. How about "mine's shorter than yours is?" Well, maybe not, but pics are fun.







Forum keeps messing up my last pic.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2016 04:30AM by Any Cal..
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 05:09AM
Sweet Any Cal. 18" I assume?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 05:13AM
Harrell makes a good argument for the shotgun as a home defense weapon...






Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 05:32AM
20" cause 18" is for pg shotguns :-). I prefer the balance of long barrels, but don't like the way 30" barrels carry. Short ones fit out the door and in the truck a lot easier. I think doubles balance best of all types when they are cut down. Don't hunt birds on the wing with this, so not too big a deal.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 05:32AM
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Any Cal.
Most of the discussion is semantics, as without training, there are NO good choices, and with it, there are many.

This needs to be plastered on gun boards everywhere. Nice boomstick too.

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Chum

Load your shotgun with standard 00, bring it up quickly to shoulder level, keep it about 1 inch from your shoulder and fire. Or, bring the shotgun up, put the top edge of the butt against the bottom of your armpit crotch and fire. After doing that, consider if either of those could effect your next shot.

I had to think a lot so my response doesn't sound incredibly pompous, so here goes: I practice a lot to avoid this happening, both with dry guns and live ones. After you do anything 1000 times, it becomes natural. It is no different than bringing a handgun up from low ready into a combat stance, getting flash sight picture, and firing. It becomes intuitive when practiced.

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Chum
I totally agree, and that is a negative of the shotgun. It isn't as intuitive or forgiving as a carbine or handgun. This is, imo, is con for the shotgun in a self defense situation.

I would only say that, given the stakes of a gunfight, it is worth doing it right. Doing it right takes thought and effort. The end of the day, they all require practice to be proficient, some are just a little more different than others.


Now in regards to PCCs, beyond lever guns I am one of the few people who finds them remarkably meh. Unless they are in a hot caliber like .357 or 10mm, I have little confidence in them offering more stopping power than a pistol. Unless it has a happy switch that will let me make multiple hits on target, I am going to pick something roughly the same weight and size in a more lethal cartridge.

Again, there are trade offs. I think noise level is a bit over blown, but it is a worthwhile concern. I'd still consider adapting to it than switching to something more anemic. Now that may mean a linear comp to direct away muzzle blast or maybe a $350 set of Peltor electronic ear pro, but they are options.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 06:10AM

If I knew I would be outdoors when I would need to defend myself, I would pick a .357 lever action every time. Massive power compared to a handgun (really high velocity and usually at least 6 or 7 rounds in the magazine, one round to the torso and IT'S AAAAAALL OVER!), you can reload with a round chambered, they have a pretty high rate of fire, excellent range/flat trajectory, and they're plenty accurate. If I knew I would be indoors, I would pick a Stoeger Double Defense 20ga. (loaded with #4 shot) with a laser and/or a Glock 21 with a laser. I've been looking at the Double Defense for a while, they're pretty sweet:


[www.stoegerindustries.com]