Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

Firearms and Shooting

Posted by Bugout Bill 
This forum is currently read only. You can not log in or make any changes. This is a temporary situation.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 12:32PM
Chum- what is your basis that shotguns require more training than a handgun? My experience was the opposite- I received 2 weeks of intensive pistol training firing thousands of rounds, plus monthly training and Qualification. Shotgun was 1 day and qualification was every six months, and a simple add on to pistol-- transitions, short range, mid range and 25 yards with buckshot and slugs. We did some reload while moving but not a big emphasis.

I've seen new shooters shooting clays with pump guns, it is the lead time and fine coordination that takes the learning, not the gross motor skills of trombone action.

I understand user error from short stroking but can't imagine that is any worse rate among qualified shooter than limp wristing.

My old agency eventually transitioned from the pump guns (Remington and Winchester) to Berretta 1201PG for general issue, rural patrol M14 .308 and Authorized then issued M4 patrol carbines.

I was doing prisoner transports and the like at the time. Our units stuck with the pump guns.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2016 12:32PM by chad234.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 01:24PM
Except for a nominal 1ounce weight increase, the new LCP II seems to be getting good reviews.
[youtu.be]

Back on the shotgun, I agree for some people it would be a terrible choice. I am large and had a decent amount of training at one point. For someone like my wife, half my size and not a shooter, and is likely to be very recoil sensitive, the better choice would likely be something like this 10/22 and red dot loaded with 30 rounds of CCI velocitor


Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 04:13PM
Quote
chad234
Chum- what is your basis that shotguns require more training than a handgun?

I don't have nearly the breadth of training you have Chad. Not even close. I just have range experience and a few classes that I mostly forgot about.

Opinions regarding Handguns/Carbines/Shotguns for home defense...

- Handguns take more practice to shoot accurately than do shotguns and carbines.
- Revolvers, Semi Autos and Carbines take less practice to reload than do shotguns.
- I have seen very little issue with people limp wristing, I have seen many people have issues wracking a pump. Newbies seem to have the most issues with Carbines in simply learning the controls.
- My own personal bias is against all things recoil. It isn't that recoil can't be controlled, it is that recoil does effect all shots after the first shot. There is a reason targets guns are heavy, and rifles are easier to shoot than handguns. Shotguns (in general) have very heavy recoil. This is off set to a degree by the fact that you can brace it with your shoulder. Handguns (in general) have low recoil compared to shotguns, but you can't brace them against your shoulder. Carbines have the lowest recoil, and you can brace them against your shoulder. That is a lot of control.
- My other bias against recoil is that it can dissuade people from practicing.
- Handguns allow you to use your off hand for other tasks.
- Shotguns are the most likely to blow out your eardrums, especially shooting indoors.

I'm not saying that shotguns don't have any advantages over pistols or carbines, I'm just saying that for the reasons I've listed above I would prefer to use a pistol or carbine over a shotgun, and I would recommend a pistol or carbine over a shotgun to others... for home defense. It is a different story for duck hunting.

As for your recommendation on the 10/22... I love that gun, I think your setup is spot on, I love the .22lr, I think the reasons you give are spot on. If you are only going to have a single firearm that would be the one I would recommend because it is so versatile. I don't think it is the best choice specifically as a home defense weapon however. Rimfire cartridges do fail more often than centerfire cartridges. You can read this anywhere, but from my own experience (mostly firing 22lr for decades) this is true. If you are to use a .22lr for home or self defense I say go with a revolver. If the cartridge fails, just pull the trigger again.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 07:36PM
Thanks Chum, I've had that 10/22 for years and it has gone through many iterations. The receiver is the only original part, it was wood stock and blued barreled. Replaced the stock, barrel and trigger group. Not quite the tack driver my marlin bolt guns are, but a whole lot of fun. I hear you on ignition failures, Winchester white box is the worst. Can't get through a ten round magazine without a failure. CCI Velocitor and mini mag are much more reliable. I'd love a takedown 10/22 in 22 magnum.

I have a couple of those Eagle 30 round mags, but usually use the Ruger rotary 10 rounders.

I actually don't need a home defense gun. My house is guarded by a ferocious lion and a ninja.



Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 22, 2016 08:06PM
A Lego ninja too! Even if tripping the opponent fails, getting under their food will surely take them out of comission.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 01:54AM
Chad: You are well equipped.

In regards to the 10/22, I've always wished they made an M1 carbine type rifle in either 5.7x28 or 10mm. That seems like a great option as a PDW for people who don't want evil black rifles or are slight of build and won't use a full sized rifle. I know gun designer Melvin Johnson necked down .30 carbine to 5.7 in the late 50s, but noone was overly interested. Great round though.

Speaking of small caliber high velocity rifles, I may have squeaked one more in before the election craziness.



Atlantic Firearms Polish Tantal kit build.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 03:00AM
I kind of like the idea of an M1 carbine. Decent ballistics out of the longer barrel. Also, a little bit of carryover to other calibers for casters and reloaders. Pick up a Blackhawk chambered the same, load like crazy. Sort of splits the difference between a .357 and .223. I guess the poor bullet selection is the limiting factor. AMT Hardballer chambered for same, maybe have a derringer built to match.


And I love AK folders. Well, most things x39 actually.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2016 03:02AM by Any Cal..
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 03:03AM
Any Cal: There is nothing wrong with the M1 Carbine and the .30 Carbine, other than the rifles themselves. If Ruger made new ones, they would be great. The majority are not good, though the actual military ones did not have a stellar reputation for reliability.


With a well designed soft point bullet, it is a very nice round for a lot of things.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2016 03:09AM by Bugout Bill.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 03:07AM
Never shot one. Really like the trim design, at least from what I see in pics. Like the .30 Carbine cartridge, but only shot it in Blackhawk. I believe Williams designed M1 and Winchester 50,59, which I like a lot as well.

-edit- my only issue with the set up is that there is no way to make it a big game rifle. More like a coyote and deer poachers rig. Still be lots of fun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2016 03:10AM by Any Cal..
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 03:21AM
Any Cal: Yeah. They are the original truck gun to a degree.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 04:32AM
lol... great pics Chad. You are correct, nobody stands a chance against the the lego ninja and that ferocious lion smileys with beer


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 11:28AM
Bill,
Awesome rifle! I really like AK's.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 12:41PM
I would love a 10mm Carbine. In MI it could be used for deer in the southern shotgun zone. HK made a sub gun in 10 that had to be awesome. I had a Ruger in 7.62x39 that I quite liked but magazines were a bear to find.

The M1 carbine was a good idea, replace the pistol for support troops with a shoulder fired fired weapon that was lightweight and easy to shoot.

TNp video on the rifle [youtu.be]
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 01:21PM
Bill- that Polish AK is cool, what caliber is it?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 01:32PM
Chad: 5.45x39. It was their attempt to evade paying the license to make AK74s, so they designed a similar rifle by committee.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 02:02PM
Quote
Ryan Nafe

... Right now I'm getting an extreme spread of around 45 feet per second...

Yeah, so, I kinda fixed it. When I installed the drop forward and the new ASA, I ended up taking the regulator and the air line off and putting some blue loctite on all threaded areas, and tightening the whole assembly up as much as I thought I could without damaging anything. Played yesterday for about 6 hours, checked it on the chronograph before I started playing. The extreme spread is now down to about 15 at most, with 10 being more common. Problem solved. And the drop forward gave it a huge improvement in balance and it keeps the gun shorter overall, very much worth the cost and time. By the way, this is a video that gives an aerial view of the field/park we usually play at, it's called "Vintage Paintball Park":



Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 02:50PM
Didn't IMI make a M1 .30 Cal Carbine called the M888 in a few different calibres?


Edit:
Different company, IAI:
[www.m1carbinesinc.com]

Looks like they went bankrupt before they got the .22 Carbine (5.7mm Johnson) model produced as they had planned.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2016 02:57PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 02:58PM
Jason: From perusing the site, a lot of different calibers were made by a lot of different companies. How well they executed those caliber changes remains to be seen.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 03:59PM
Slow motion 5.45x39 in ballistics gel:



Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 05:32PM
Ryan: A non-fragmenting, slightly slower version of 5.56.

Chad: If there would have been one company that could have made a reliable, bombproof 10mm carbine, that would have been Ruger. Unfortunately, 10mm was pretty much commercially when .40 S&W debuted. Even now, it is a cult round at best.

Still, I wouldn't mind a gas operated carbine in it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 06:24PM
Quote
chad234
I would love a 10mm Carbine.

Aero Survival Rifle


The Aero Survival Rifle, famous for its removable barrel and easily convertible caliber changes, is a winner in home defense, backpacking, boating, and back country flying. The Aero Survival RifleTM is available in hard black anodize, two variegated finishes (pink, and green), OD green, and tan. The ASR can be ordered in 9mm, .45 ACP, .40 calibers and the newly available 10mm and .357SIG. The ASR is also coming soon is .22 LR, .22 MAG, and .17 HMR. The ASR is equipped with a 4x scope, quick change barrel, and AR collapsible stock*. The Aero Survival Pistol is also available in similar colors and calibers.

If you would like your ASR barrel threaded for suppressors you must also purchase the threading service listed as ASR and ASP Barrel Threading Service.

Specs
Barrel length: US 16.25” Canada 18.75”
Overall length: US 33.0" Canada 35.5"
Overall length (Collapsed Stock): US 29.5” Canada 32.0”
Breakdown dimensions with barrel removed: US 17.25”
Available calibers: 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, 10mm, or .357SIG
Magazine configuration: Glock pistol style
Left or right handed ejection
Weight: 5.5 lbs
Coating: Hard Anodized
Action: Semi-automatic, direct blow back
Safety: Sliding safety and integrated child trigger lock
Optional three-day pack sold separately
Performance: 9mm Wolf ammo, 1,270 FPS

Includes:
Four power scope
One Glock Style magazine
Upper and lower rails

Also relevant: made of aircraft aluminum
*Accessories on the ASR and ASP may vary in style and specs. This includes stocks, pistol grips and buffer tubes.

link: [www.tnwfirearms.com]






Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 23, 2016 06:37PM
Chum: I was trying not to mention that. It is even more of an abortion than the HiPoint.

My own opinion aside, you could also get a 10mm DI AR15 upper for the same price, though a lower is going to tack on more cost.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2016 06:47PM by Bugout Bill.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 24, 2016 02:55AM
A good 10mm carbine is hard to get, I think. Mech tech makes one, but it is a blowback gun too. Good news is that it can work on Glock or 1911 frames, and uses those mags.

The only issue with 10mm carbine is that they don't gain much from the long barrel. Case is small, so gas volume is low. You can get most of the benefit with a 6" barrel. A Glock 20 pdw makes some sense from that perspective. $200 stamp, $150? stock, and rock on!

I am kind of leaning toward 9x39 or 358 AR as a prime carbine cartridge. At least until somebody makes a 10mag carbine, or shows me how to do it myself.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 24, 2016 05:27PM
Any opinions on micro-red dots for pistols?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 24, 2016 11:11PM
I think the Ttijicon RMR is the way to go. Though I am not wholly sold on the concept, old dogs and new tricks...
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 24, 2016 11:16PM
Chum: They are on the top of my list in terms of things I want to shoot. Forgotten Weapons did a good video on the concept, I think I posted that already. They liked it alot, but stated that it had to be properly set up and the irons still were crucial to the entire concept.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 24, 2016 11:43PM
Quote
chad234
I think the Ttijicon RMR is the way to go. Though I am not wholly sold on the concept, old dogs and new tricks...

The new Leupold Delta Point Pro looks nicer than the RMR to me. Here's a good comparison of the two by Gabe Suarez...

Trijicon RMR vs Leupold Delta Point Pro

I tried out a cheapo on my friends Victory 22. I liked it. Much like the laser, it allows you to keep both eyes open and fixed on your target. I know some people have trained themselves to shoot this way using iron sights, but I never got the hang of it. If I'm using iron sights, I'm closing my left eye and focusing on the front site.




Quote
Bugout Bill
They are on the top of my list in terms of things I want to shoot. Forgotten Weapons did a good video on the concept, I think I posted that already. They liked it a lot, but stated that it had to be properly set up and the irons still were crucial to the entire concept.

Yes, by having the iron sights you can co witness, which prevents fishing for the holographic red dot. In my very limited use of a red dot, finding the dot quickly is a real issue.

Match shooters that use red dots tend not to use iron sights in there set up. What I have read is that training can eventually get rid of red dot fishing expeditions, and co witnessing actually slows down the shooter. These are competition match shooters however. This is something I am not even close to, but it does suggest that using irons to find the red dot might not be the optimal way to learn using a red dot.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2016 12:13AM
Chum: In the video I saw, the reviewer mentioned that the reason for iron sight co-witness was to allow for more precise shooting at longer range. Go figure.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2016 03:31AM
OK,

Here is something that *may* be fun, and everyone can play. I have been trying to quantify shooting speed with various firearms and action types. The ideal way to to that is with a shot timer ($140), a chronograph ($100), a scale ($12), and a spreadsheet.

I borrowed a chrono, own a scale, and have a workaround for the shot timer.

1) Download a sound recording app for your phone.

2) Go shoot several rounds at a target equal to 8" @ 8yd.

3) Post the soundfile or check it yourself by downloading Audacity to your laptop, and analyzing it.

I will analyze the file if you post it, or you can do it yourself. What it allows you to do is measure the soundtrack of your shot string very accurately. It is easy, just hit record, then shoot 5 or so rounds. Now the info is there.

I have been playing with pump, lever, semi-auto actions. It is eye opening when you see how far apart your shots are. I thought a lever was fast, but recorded roughly 2 second splits. Pump 12g was .75-1.0 second splits, and semi 12 was .6-.7 splits.Incicentally, I shoot these very little but am familiar with them, so would be fairly representative of a newer shooter shooting with no warmup. Ideally, I can get consistency to the point where I can see the effect of various loads on shot times. You can also take it a step farther and include draw and possibly reaction times. At what point do you get two shots of one firearm vs. 1 of another?

Anyone want to give it a go? Audacity

Ryan, you could do this with your paintball gun too- might be fun to get in the mix!
Re: Firearms and Shooting
October 25, 2016 03:51AM
This is a screenshot from Audacity. If you wanted to get technical, you could probably measure lock time too! And, with the right surroundings and target, use it to measure velocity.

Notice the shaded area, the boxes at the bottom give info about it. See the "length" box? If you shade the time one shot to the next, it measures it out. You can expand the graph to the point that you can measure to 1000/ths of seconds.