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Firearms and Shooting

Posted by Bugout Bill 
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Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 04, 2017 03:54AM
To be clear, I would be carrying that in a forward crossdraw position, essentially appendix carry but on the opposite side.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 04, 2017 06:54AM
Quote
chad234
Quote
Ryan
The only real complaint about the 30 vs the 36 is the width and weight, but I think that with a good belt or a shoulder holster it shouldn't be a huge issue

A good belt and holster make carrying a heavier gun much easier. And the 30 ain't that heavy. The problem for me is that it is thick, as you'd expect from a double stack .45. In shooting that broad grip spreads out the area of recoil and the added weight is helpful too. I would rather carry a Sig P220 IWB than a G30, and do on occasions.

Saw this video and thought of you Ryan....
[www.mrcolionnoir.com]

It is funny you mention the G30 and Sig P220 together. When my buddy would bring his Glock 30 to the range I would bring my Sig P220. I recall that they are pretty close in terms of accuracy and size. Both are on the large size for concealed carry, for me personally. My buddy carried his G30 inside the waistband for... I think he still carries it, so that would be about 15 or 20 years. I'd probably choose to shoot myself in the foot one time, than carry either the G30 or P220 inside the waistband for a year.

Ryan, I'm going to step up onto my soapbox for a sec and ask you a question... have you handled and/or shot a G42? Unless you are going with an outside the waistband full-sized holster, the difference between carrying the G30 and a G42 is night and day. Additionally, I much prefer to shoot my G42 over any .45, including my P220.

Just do some ballistic comparisons between the .45acp and the .380acp. Think of the .380 as a miniature .45 spinning smiley sticking its tongue out Both are generally sub-sonic at least.

I really wish someone else on this forum would give the G42 a chance... and do a review. Probably never happen though winking smiley


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 04, 2017 07:38AM
Ryan: I bought some Triple K mags, I would only use them if they were all that was available. Save yer money.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 04, 2017 03:05PM
Quote
Bugout Bill
Ryan: I bought some Triple K mags, I would only use them if they were all that was available. Save yer money.

Well crap, alright Bill. That's not cool.


Chum, on the 30 vs 42 question:

I haven't shot one, but the guy at the gun shop has mentioned them before and the 42 and 43 are on the shelf below the 30, 29, 26, etc. I know what you're saying about carrying a 42 vs a 30, the 42 is basically smaller in every dimension. What you said about the .380 acp being like a mini 45 acp is actually pretty true, it is very much a scaled-down 45.

One of the main reasons that I'm ok with getting a larger gun like the 30 or 36 is because I don't plan to carry it every day. For example, commuting between work and home, I see no real reason to carry. It would be far more likely get pulled over by a cop than to get in some situation where I'm in enough danger to have a need for a gun. So that's out, for most of the week I won't have it on me. Another thing is that my town is pretty benign for the most part, at least if I don't spend time with certain old acquaintances. I have been going into the big metropolitan area near me a lot more though, especially on the weekends, and it would also be great to carry it while I'm fishing, checking on or maintaining my hunting property, etc. So it wouldn't be a daily thing. When in the big city, I'm usually dressed sharp enough to justify a sports jacket or similar, which should cover up an OWB gun pretty easily. Though I'm not sure what I'm going to do when it's really hot out, as I often have my shirt tucked in or don't have a ton of room under a shirt even if it's untucked.

So basically I'm not going to carry it 24/7, and should be able to plan accordingly to be able to carry it comfortably. As long as I have a couple decent holsters and a good belt.

As for why I'm stuck on .45, there are several reasons:

For one thing, I'm not the biggest fan of hollow point bullets or putting only one hole in whatever I'm shooting at. Two holes in a vessel will drain the liquid from it much faster. I have a strong preference for flat point FMJ or hard cast lead bullets. They are far more versatile and have much higher penetration than expanding bullets do, while still cutting a bigger hole and doing much more damage than a round nose FMJ. This is where the .45 really pulls ahead, the damage done by a flat point .45 is substantially more than what's done by a flat point 9mm. If I wanted to use hollow points I could definitely just use a 9mm. But again, me no like hollow points in most cartridges. Give me a cartridge with enough velocity and a properly constructed bullet (.357 mag, 158 grain XTP) and they're just fine, but otherwise I'm not interested in them. So, given the above parameters, I'm pretty much stuck with a .45 ACP.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 04, 2017 06:55PM
I have a triple k for my Mark II. Ok for the price, but it ain't Galco quality. Stitching is decent but leather quality is noticeably lower.

Should holster/ thinnness is just as important as IWB for me.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 04, 2017 07:49PM
Quote
chad234
Should holster/ thinnness is just as important as IWB for me.

By this do you mean that the extra width of the gun is still just as noticeable in a shoulder holster?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 04, 2017 08:53PM
Ryan: thanks for your well thought out analysis. Sounds like the G30 will fit you well in that role, and the important thing is that you like to carry and shoot it.

Quote
Chum
By this do you mean that the extra width of the gun is still just as noticeable in a shoulder holster?

Sorry, I was typing on my iphone while standing in line at Costco. Yes, that's what I meant. A shoulder holster distributes the weight of a heavy gun across a broad area. But the thickness of a double stack gun, especially a double stack .45, is very noticeable. I do carry full size guns in a Galco shoulder rig on occasion but find the better set up for me is the primary (full size) weapon in a well designed IWB or OWB holster an and a smaller, thinner BUG in the shoulder holster. Or a single stack 9 like the Shield as a primary weapon in the shoulder holster, perhaps with a pocket carry piece if I feel like carrying a BUG.

Quote
Chum
I'd probably choose to shoot myself in the foot one time, than carry either the G30 or P220 inside the waistband for a year.

Wow, you should look at a better holster! In the UBG holster below, I find the P220 carries and conceals very nicely for a full size, duty capable, weapon. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it carries more easily than the lighter weight G19, if the G19 is in a lesser holster.


Quote
Chum
I really wish someone else on this forum would give the G42 a chance... and do a review. Probably never happen though

Fear not kind sir. At your bidding, I am 350 rounds (50 rounds Hornady XTP, 100 rounds federal 95 FMJ, 200 rounds Feedom 100gr FMJ) into my 1000 round review of my new G42, and so far your words have rung very true. I just got in another 500 rounds of .380 practice ammo (Freedom 100gr FMJ) and hope to get another 150 rounds of trigger time through it tomorrow. My plan is to swap out the factory sights and make some other minor mods at 500 rounds, and then at 1000 rounds write a complete review including how the gun fits into my carry systems, and how it compares to other pocket pistols and compact handguns, including my analysis of the .380 vs primary/duty calibers.











Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 04, 2017 09:59PM
Chad, at this point the decision is going to rest on how well I shoot each one side by side. If the difference in shootability and practical accuracy is big enough, I'll likely go with the 30. If they're not too different then I'll go with the 36. I would trust you and Chum as far as thickness being a significant factor in carrying.

As far as the analysis goes, I don't know if it's well thought out, but it is thought out. The trouble is that I don't really have much actual knowledge so it's hard or impossible to make any concrete conclusions before I actually use them.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 05, 2017 01:30AM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Chum, on the 30 vs 42 question:

I haven't shot one, but the guy at the gun shop has mentioned them before and the 42 and 43 are on the shelf below the 30, 29, 26, etc. I know what you're saying about carrying a 42 vs a 30, the 42 is basically smaller in every dimension.

It is much, much smaller, and probably more important it is light as heck. Here is a comparison (figures taken from the Glock website) ...

G42: 13.76oz (17.29oz loaded)
G19: 23.65oz (30.18oz loaded)
G36: 22.42oz (27.00oz loaded)
G30: 26.30oz (33.71oz loaded)

Between the light weight and the thinness, the Glock 42 is a dream to carry. I would not say I forget it is there in my IWB holster, but it is close. If you carry an extra mag, which I do, that will make more of a difference.






Quote
Ryan Nafe
One of the main reasons that I'm ok with getting a larger gun like the 30 or 36 is because I don't plan to carry it every day. For example...

I went through this same kind of thinking. I tried to imagine when I would actually carry the gun. Basically, I just didn't carry one that often because it was too uncomfortable. I have found that the easier the gun is to carry, the more often I end up carrying it. I definitely carry my G42 more than any other gun I have owned.


Quote
Ryan Nafe
As for why I'm stuck on .45, there are several reasons:

For one thing, I'm not the biggest fan of hollow point bullets or putting only one hole in whatever I'm shooting at.

I don't think you will have any penetration problems from a non-hollowpoint .380acp. The bonus is that your second shot is going to be so much easier with a G42 (I don't say .380 here because not all .380s are soft on recoil.)

Man, I wish you could shoot the G42 and the G30 back to back.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 05, 2017 01:42AM
Quote
chad234
Wow, you should look at a better holster! In the UBG holster below, I find the P220 carries and conceals very nicely for a full size, duty capable, weapon. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it carries more easily than the lighter weight G19, if the G19 is in a lesser holster.

I think this falls into the realm of personal preference. You were a cop for a long time and are used to carrying a lot of heavy gear. I am a Eugene Hippie/Redneck that doesn't wear a watch because I won't be defined by the white man's sense of time spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

Seriously though, the lighter (and less bulky) the load I'm carrying the happier I am. I'm the type of guy that does a heel kick after I take a big dump.

I also like to carry useful gear, so I do put a fair amount of thought and experimentation into what I carry... as is the norm here.

Quote
chad234
Fear not kind sir. At your bidding, I am 350 rounds (50 rounds Hornady XTP, 100 rounds federal 95 FMJ, 200 rounds Feedom 100gr FMJ) into my 1000 round review of my new G42, and so far your words have rung very true. I just got in another 500 rounds of .380 practice ammo (Freedom 100gr FMJ) and hope to get another 150 rounds of trigger time through it tomorrow. My plan is to swap out the factory sights and make some other minor mods at 500 rounds, and then at 1000 rounds write a complete review including how the gun fits into my carry systems, and how it compares to other pocket pistols and compact handguns, including my analysis of the .380 vs primary/duty calibers.

smileys with beersmileys with beersmileys with beer

You should know that I am jealous that you have a grey handled G42 grinning smiley


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 05, 2017 07:25AM


Some info on the CZ P-09 (Cajun Gunworks Edition) ...

I had the opportunity last weekend to get some real time with the P09 (my first excursion with the P09 was called off early due to freezing my ass off.) I wasn't disappointed the second (much warmer) time.

Here are my first shots with the P09...

Top Left: S&W Victory .22lr (10 rounds)
Top Right: Taurus .22 Revolver (9 rounds)
Bottom Left: Walther Q5 9mm (30 rounds)
Bottom Right: CZ P-09 (42 rounds)
* All shots were taken at 7 yards.


I don't have any pictures or video, but I also shot steel at 15 yards with all of these guns. The CZ was the clear leader at 15 yards. I was definitely able to hit the steel faster and more accurately with the CZ over the Walther Q5, and the .22s. I have no idea why I could hit steel at 15 yards better with the CZ than the S&W Victory, but the lower recoil seemed to be the reason the CZ surpassed the Walther.

I compared the trigger on the CZ Cajun vs. the stock CZ. There is no question that both the single and double actions of the Cajun are lighter and smoother than the stock CZ. There was just no creep at all on the Cajun. None. Zero. There is definitely creep in the stock double action and a tiny bit of creep in the stock single action.

Is the Cajun Gun Works trigger/spring job worth it? Value wise, I would say no. The stock single action trigger on the CZ P-09 is very nice. The double action pull on the stock CZ P-09 is fairly heavy and creepy. The double action pull on the Cajun is nicer than some of my revolvers, and probably lighter than any of them, but you'll end up paying about $350 dollars for the improvements Cajun Gunworks does on this CZ. If money isn't a concern then it is definitely worth it, as it noticeably improves the gun.

Regarding the sites and the Streamline TLR-2 HL G... Great all around. I was worried that the raised suppressor sights would be an issue. No issue at all. I think I might prefer suppressor sights to normal sights. I will have to do a lot more shooting with this gun to be sure however.

I am very happy with how bright the night sights are. Very easy to pick up in low/no light.


Here you can see the CZ P-09's night sights working in conjunction with the Streamline's green laser.


It is interesting how the green glow of the nightsights instantly disappears when you turn on the 800 lumens light of the TLR-2.


btw I think I am over my concern of blinding myself with such a powerful light. I actually did some low light and fully dark tests with the TLR-2, both in a mirror and against bright white surfaces. Off of a mirror you can blind yourself, but it would be difficult to do as you have a great deal of control over allowing the light to hit you directly in the eyes, or not. Off a bright white surface it seemed impossible to actually blind myself with the light, even at very close distances (ie. 5 feet away.) There may come a time where handgun lights are so powerful that the risk of blinding yourself is too high, but that is not the case presently... at least at 800 lumens.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 05, 2017 07:32AM
Chum: That is a nice gat. Interesting observation about the trigger. Honestly, that group you posted is what my stock 75B is capable of at 7 yds as long as I do my part. The sights are also really nice.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 05, 2017 07:43AM
Quote
Bugout Bill
Honestly, that group you posted is what my stock 75B is capable of at 7 yds as long as I do my part. The sights are also really nice.

Good point regarding the target groupings. I think video is a much better way to get a sense of how a gun shoots than pictures of a target. You don't have any sense of the speed at which someone is shooting with pics. I'll see about rectifying that in the future. I'm not claiming to be a great shooter btw. I just wanted to show a comparison.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 05, 2017 01:01PM
I'd say that is excellent shooting and a phenomenal set up for home defense or competition. The grouping and placement demonstrate solid fundamentals of marksmanship. What ammo were you shooting from the CZ? How do you see this weapon fitting into your systems vs the PPQ?

On photo vs video, last weekend I tried to shoot some video by sticking my phone in my shirt pocket with the camera sticking out the top. Didn't work out so well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2017 01:04PM by chad234.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 05, 2017 03:51PM
Quote
Chum
I went through this same kind of thinking. I tried to imagine when I would actually carry the gun. Basically, I just didn't carry one that often because it was too uncomfortable. I have found that the easier the gun is to carry, the more often I end up carrying it. I definitely carry my G42 more than any other gun I have owned.

I get what you're sayin, but I honestly don't want or need to carry one all the time. I really just don't see a need in most of the day-to-day environments I'm in. I was looking/asking for serious trouble for years and I never needed one, and now I don't interact with any of those people or situations anymore, so it really seems unnecessary. Except in the black bear and methhead-infested north woods and the big metropolitan areas.



Quote
Chum
I don't think you will have any penetration problems from a non-hollowpoint .380acp. The bonus is that your second shot is going to be so much easier with a G42 (I don't say .380 here because not all .380s are soft on recoil.)

Man, I wish you could shoot the G42 and the G30 back to back.

I know the .380 would get more than enough penetration with a flat point, but the problem is that it will have less killing power than my .38 special. I currently have 150 grain full-caliber wadcutters that leave the 3" barrel at about 900 fps, this is a much more damaging bullet than any non-expanding bullet that will reliably function from the 42. It's also a very utilitarian loading, I've used it to take a handful of rabbits, a opossum, and a raccoon. The killing power is waaaaay above a .22lr like I normally use but it doesn't ruin much meat. Note that I only eat the rabbits. No opossum stew for me. The one thing a 42 has on my LCR is a bit more capacity and a slight edge in ease of carry. I could easily put Hogue boot grips on the LCR and it will disappear under the lightest clothing I have. And it barely weighs over a pound fully loaded. It's one pound on the dot when it's empty. And this is a gun with a 3" barrel, excellent sight picture (black rear blade and white ramp front), and a full-length grip. The grip is the only hindrance to concealability but when I carry it it's usually open carry because that's legal everywhere in the state and I still don't have a CC permit.

Something like the 36 and especially the 30 would offer a major increase in firepower over the LCR while still being small enough to carry. With the 36 being better for concealability and comfort and the 30 having the lead in capacity and what I'm imagining is a noticeable improvement in controllability/recoil.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 06, 2017 06:05AM
This thing looks very cool...


It is basically a Boberg XR9S (Boberg was bought out by Bond Arms) that is claimed to be improved by Bond Arms.


This video gives you a good look at the pistol, as well as some information on it.





Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 06, 2017 12:27PM
Very innovative. If they can make and keep it functioning reliably it should be a winner, even at that high price point.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 06, 2017 11:05PM
Chum: From what I have heard anecdotally, the biggest improvement Bond Arms made was removing Arne Boberg from the equation.

They are a very interesting design.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 06, 2017 11:25PM
Quote
chad234
What ammo were you shooting from the CZ?

I have stocked up on Winchester White Box and that is all I have been using lately with my 9mms. Both the CZ and Walther were shooting WWB.


Quote
chad234
How do you see this weapon fitting into your systems vs the PPQ?

Right now the CZ P-09, with the Streamlight TLR-2, is my go to home defense gun. If I had a holster for it, it would be my hiking gun as well.

As much as I like the Walther Q5, I believe I prefer the CZ P-09. Even though I have only taken my new CZ out to shoot one time (one and half if you count the freezing my butt off day) but my friend has been letting me shoot his. I have shot the stock CZ P-09 back-to-back with the Walther Q5 quite a bit now, and the CZ edges out the Walther very narrowly. I really like both guns.

The Walther Q5 has easier to use controls. The slide release and the mag release are basically perfect. The Walther handle is a little more comfortable than the CZ's handle, however the CZ handle seems to lock my hand in a little better. I think this is due to the rougher texture on the CZ handle.

As much as I like the trigger on the Walther, the CZ's is just better... especially the Cajun Gun Works version. Part of this, however, is due to the fact that I prefer a DA/SA over a striker fired gun.

The CZ has less recoil than the Walther.

The Walther is going to get some shelf time for awhile. It is very unlikely that I would sell it. More likely that I will wait awhile, and when the time is right (money and interest wise) I'll get a nice red dot for it. The Walther Q5 is designed specifically for a slide mounted red dot.

Quote
chad234
On photo vs video, last weekend I tried to shoot some video by sticking my phone in my shirt pocket with the camera sticking out the top. Didn't work out so well.

I have considered getting a GoPro.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 06, 2017 11:31PM
Quote
Bugout Bill
Chum: From what I have heard anecdotally, the biggest improvement Bond Arms made was removing Arne Boberg from the equation.

Yankee Marshal mentioned something about that.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 06, 2017 11:49PM
Chum: I'll admit that I have no experience with the P-09, though it does seem to use the Omega trigger system that CZ has introduced across their line up. I've heard generally good things about the stock set up, as well as the ability to tune it, though it does apparently have slightly less durability than the combloc trigger in the original 75s. I'm kind of interested in the Cajun Gun Works triggers for the 75Bs; the stock trigger is pretty bad.

I'm not terribly fond of the polymer offerings, but the poly framed SP-01 Phantom does catch my eye from time to time.

That being said, I'd rather have the SP-01 Shadow with some combat sights. The original Shadows were awesome.

[cz-usa.com]

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 07, 2017 04:26PM
Has anyone used UMC ammo? I'd be interested to hear if it's clean and accurate. They have a 185 grain flat point that's pretty cheap and I could use it for practice and carry:

[www.luckygunner.com]


This particular offering from Buffalo Bore is far too expensive to justify considering that I can use the same type of bullet from Winchester white box or UMC, but the performance is in line with what I'm looking for:

[www.buffalobore.com]
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 07, 2017 04:53PM
Also, what are your thoughts on thumb break holsters vs. open top, a strap over the top, or something with a push-button lock?
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 07, 2017 06:17PM
Ryan: I would shoot UMC if it was given to me. The few times I've shot it it has been pretty inconsistent.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 07, 2017 06:24PM
Ryan- for practice ammo, I've been using Freedom Munitions with good results, my funds feed it fine, it is as accurate as Blazer and decently clean burning. For carry ammo, I am using Hornady XTP in .380 and GDHP in 9mm and .45. I plan on switching to Federal HST the next time I rotate and shoot my carry ammo. I am debating 124 vs 147....

Chum/ I'd sure like to try one of them Cajun Cz's. I'll have to keep my eyes peeled on the local gun board.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 07, 2017 06:36PM
I have used the UMC 9mm, in the pack of a couple hundred rounds....good blasting ammo, I like WIn White Box and Fed American better.

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Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 07, 2017 09:39PM
Freedom Munitions seems alright Chad, the prices are certainly really low. I hadn't heard of them before. They even have plated wadcutters for my .38 that are really cheap, I may have to buy a few hundred of those. Thanks for the suggestion.

Since everyone seems to have unfavorable opinions of UMC, perhaps I'll look elsewhere. I gotta find some flat point ammo.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 07, 2017 10:58PM
The fact that "freedom munitions kaboom" comes up as the 3rd or 4th option on an Internet search makes me a bit weary. I have heard bad things and good things about their ammo.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 07, 2017 11:15PM
I haven't read any reviews but I've shot thousands of rounds without a hitch.
Re: Firearms and Shooting
February 08, 2017 02:54AM
Chad: If that is the case, power too you.

Honestly, 9mm is cheap enough that I am usually able to find it on sale for $10-13 bucks brass cased, $10 steel or Al case stuff. Reman ammo almost doesn't make sense.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.