The Benchmade Controversy

Past a certain point I have to agree. Up to a point though, I think people are trying to lighten a very serious issue. And there are also going to be some fringe psychopaths in every group.

Ok. Got it. I wasn't sure in the context above.

Old Spice, you're perspective is always refreshing.

Collin,
The mass shooting problem has nothing to do with firearms, try thinking of a solution that doesn't include them either.

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"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
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"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
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"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
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"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
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StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube

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C Amber

I also don't like the militarization of police. But I prefer it to see it from the opposite way. I don't think they should be as heavily armed as they are in many cases, but then I wonder if it wasn't necessary in order to deal with the level of crimes people committed / aggression they are capable of manifesting. (I'm thinking the infamous LA case where the bank robbers had body armor.)

Radley Balko’s book, "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces", presents an interesting history of this. IMS, he argues that the militarization is the result of the drug war and federal grant programs more than actual or perceived need. I think you, and everyone else in this thread, would enjoy the book.

Thank you Tarantella! It sounds interesting. I'll add it to the Amazon wish list.

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Always in search of a good choppa'

Thank you Tarantella! It sounds interesting. I'll add it to the Amazon wish list.

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Always in search of a good choppa'

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tarantella

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C Amber

I also don't like the militarization of police. But I prefer it to see it from the opposite way. I don't think they should be as heavily armed as they are in many cases, but then I wonder if it wasn't necessary in order to deal with the level of crimes people committed / aggression they are capable of manifesting. (I'm thinking the infamous LA case where the bank robbers had body armor.)

Radley Balko’s book, "Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces", presents an interesting history of this. IMS, he argues that the militarization is the result of the drug war and federal grant programs more than actual or perceived need. I think you, and everyone else in this thread, would enjoy the book.

Already know it.

Part of the problem with the 2nd amendment is it’s somewhat vague nature.

My view is that the primary purpose of the 2nd amendment is not hunting, self-defense, or sport. The primary purpose is defense against tyranny, the ability to overthrow a government that is not abiding by the constitution.

So any law preventing citizens from owning military-grade weaponry (yes this includes all small arms and everything up to tanks, SAM’s, LAW’s, etc.) is unconditional. If the armed forces and the police use it, it should be available to any citizens who can afford to purchase it. Intentionally inflating prices to prevent this would also be unconstitutional.

In lieu of being able to afford anti-vehicle weapons, people should be able to make shaped charges and EFP’s as a stand-in for actual rockets. Many modern tanks still can’t survive a direct hit from an appropriate EFP, and they’re much cheaper than a real LAW rocket system.

I’m perfectly comfortable with the idea of me or my neighbors being able to equip an emergency militia force if the need arises, including explosives, tanks, planes, etc. In fact I find that idea much more comfortable than the current state of affairs, where we (citizens) are mostly outgunned by both the police and the military.

In the past it was generally not like this, citizens had direct access to the same weapons that the government did. Only in recent decades has this changed, and I haven’t heard a single argument as to why it’s necessary or constitutionally-appropriate.

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me2
One interesting thing about the New Zealand massacre is CNN reported it was NZ's first mass shooting in 30 years. Australia enacted its gun control policies about the same time, and has had more mass shootings than NZ since then.

What NZ Govt did was outrageous, and to be honest, almost deserved the govt being taken out by force.

we have had some shootings prior to this.. 3-5 people killed.. normally by a lunatic theif etc..

but the facts in that NZ shooting are lunacy when looked at.
he was an Australian Citizen who identified as being European.
he did not have the right to bear arms in Australia because of previous crime.
when he came to NZ he somehow got a gun license because the police did not vet him properly, and did not check his criminal records in Australia.
he should never have even been allowed in the country based on his record.

He bought firearms legally, but those firearms are not the ones he used for the shooting, which he obtained on the blackmarket from criminals.
he was a racist lunatic, who wanted to be famous, and or die.
Had guns not been available, he'd have made a pipe bomb, etc and just walked in and blown up the Mosque

so the first mass shooting ever on this scale in NZ, but a non NZ'er who only got in because of poor vetting in the first place, and the GOVT used it to pass an emergency law to ban almost all guns in the country with a forced buyback, against the wishes of 1/3rd or more of the voting public at a minimum. done so swiftly you'd almost think the govt paid the dude to do it.

How many criminals do you think handed in their blackmarket guns? none.. only the law abiding people that wont shoot anyone.

I dont own guns, dont want to own guns, but have no issue with people owning guns, and have a severe issue with the laws being passed in the way they were passed.. because its not just guns.. its just one more little step in them trying to make us into a socialist country.


it always feels innocent to say, take away the guns, it wont hurt you.. sure..
then they take away some other small things..it wont hurt either..
before you know it, you are escaping to North Korea hoping for a better life.

If you have never been to China.. i suggest you try it. and tell me that you won't mind having your freedoms removed to the point where you do what the govt says, or they incarcerate you. everything you do monitor, watched.. checked. all internet activity traced.

Taking away guns will not reduce horrific gun crime.. those people are never going to give up their guns.. you can't even stop drugs, you wont stop arms.. never have been able to.. disarming the public, does not disarm the criminals ever.
ask all the martyrs blowing up people, driving their trucks into people if they mind the fact that they didn't carry a gun..

i firmly believe that by reducing guns you will reduce gun statistics, and find an equal increase in other kinds of statistics.

I am watching what is happening to england, and the people are living more like cattle than people. their rights dissapearing slowly enough that most dont notice, and most dont care.. they feel safe.. safe from what? try living during WW2..

what happens in ww3 if it ever happens and everyone is disarmed and walking around with fold up scissors? All the govts are acting like the world is in some idyllic peace and no one needs to worry about anything. its very unlikley that this is true..

I would almost guarantee that if USA disarmed, and denuclearized themselves that China would be setting the school curriculum in 10 years in USA.

the reality is that britsh rule, NZ type rule.. its not democracy. its democratically voted dictatorship with no accountability for what they do while in office except for being voted out for a while.. big deal.

i would say that USA should be glad of the BOR, and do anything they can to protect those rights and remember how USA was formed and why those rights were formed and be glad you don't have the shitty kinds of laws we have here.

There is a huge amount about USA i could criticize.. but any govt anywhere that uses the activity of a criminal to restrict the activity of a non-criminal citizen should be held to account.. eliminate the criminals, and then no one else needs to be restricted by BS laws.

You can tell im very irate about how pathetic my Govt is, while i sit here in exile in the Philippines

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen

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C Amber
Nothing says "we respect liberty and freedom" like flipping out and destroying your completely unneeded toys because the toy company doesn't agree with your beliefs.

C.. if you take away all potential ulterior motives and think about it.

imagine if you were a knife company, and guns were banned? your sales are going to skyrocket sounds like their motivation could be purely profiteering.

i imagine the Beef Farmers are all calling for a ban on chicken too

if people are destroying their Benchmades.. i sure wish they'd just post them to me instead.. sigh

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen

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me2
If Benchmade wants to make some real money, they should offer their facilities and equipment to the New Zealand.m prime minister. They're about to need a boat load of guns destroyed.

And they will increase our taxes a huge bunch to destroy them after buying them back at 1/4 their value

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen

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C Amber
I tend to think of it as if I there was a problem with the children at my kid's school stabbing each other with scissors, the first thing I would expect is that scissors be taken from the children or limited at least. Obviously I wouldn't conceive of the scissors as the problem, and I would hope effort would be directed at solving why kids were feeling so angry with each other. But in the mean time I would do what I could to limit the violence.

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ETC: Batman didn't use guns (that I know of...there's a lot of Batman comics I have no knowledge of), so seemed like a bad reference.

Batman used to murder everyone left right and centre until he realized that people started seeing him as the villian (in some version) so he went all altruistic to beat them senseless instead and let the courts deal with it.

While I agree with the sentiment being expressed about the scissors, and the temporary measure.. here is the fundamental and demonstrable problem with that argument.

a school might easily be able to take aways scissors for a week and put them back in after some corrective training, but a Govt will never do this.


Govts have a habit of enacting knee jerk laws and then they will never ever be temporary or repealed.. the reason being that if someone repeals them, and something then happens, they will forever be known as the person that caused the problem for repealing that wonderful law.
It just never happens..

Case in point for a personal issue that demonstrates this in NZ.
30 years or so, when immigration wasn't a lot in NZ, there was a habit of many foreigners paying women, or men to marry them to get residency. one person I know got around $50,000 for this plus food and accomodation for the 2 years pretending.

I would guess that the "mail order briding/grooming" fraud accounted for 1% or less of all immigrants getting into the country. but someone on their high horse decided to enact a law that stands to this day.

that law says "anyone that sponsors 2 people in their lifetime for immigration, may not sponsor a 3rd" in reference to a partnership sponsor etc.
their rationale based on whatever religious view or moral compass they held was that good honest person
would never need more than 2 right? and if you want to marry more than 2, just meet a local person..

that law was enacted, and as juvenile and stupid as it was.. it was never repealed and is enforced heavily to the disadvantage of a minority of people. but many more now that we have a rich multicultural country.

the law could have said "if you are discovered to have been fraudulently in a partnership with the intent to defraud the govt for residency, then you will be punished and deported" like many places, the law could simply say, :"your residency is bonded to your partnership, and if you breakup, you must leave" not hard.. they are happy to do it to work visa..

so.. here I am, stuck in another country because i happened to meet for the 3rd time in my life someone who was not a NZ citizen.. its irrelevant that one of the others left and went back to china.. or anything.. the law is the law, and no one has the guts to take laws away..

There is no such thing as temporary in govt law..


Now.. out of curiosity, as I dont know the answer..
States like NY that imposed knife blade limits on carrying a knife.. what is the reduction in knife crime statistics since that occurred?

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen

Kyley killing it on the 2nd Amendment. Excellent posts.

I don't wish to offend anyone, but given all the lies, propaganda and self-serving motivations that the Democrat party and their leftist media propaganda machine (CNN, MSNBC, NYT etc.) has been spewing in an effort to discredit everything Trump says or does, and given the left's push towards authoritarian socialism (aka communism)... I think it has never been more important for the US population to own firearms.

I try to follow political and social trends via as many media sources as I can stomach. I think the polarization between political ideologies has become so vast that some sort of split is likely to happen, be it a mutual departure from one another, or a civil war. It's best to be armed at this time.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member

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cKc
Now.. out of curiosity, as I dont know the answer..
States like NY that imposed knife blade limits on carrying a knife.. what is the reduction in knife crime statistics since that occurred?

I’m not sure about New York, and those statistics are probably very difficult to come by. But I do know a bit about local laws (inside my city limits) and there’s a quite strong difference between the scope of the law and the crime rate surrounding it:

This is a direct copy-paste from the official city ordinances, and as far as I can see it’s the only piece of legislation about knives:

“No person shall carry or wear concealed about his or her person any bowie knife, dirk knife, dagger or other device commonly known as a surth knife, spring blade knife or push button knife.”

That’s actually pretty loose as far as a modern law goes. It’s simple, short, and concise. A little vague, just a couple minor definition issues, but it’s not badly written and it’s not particularly restrictive, either.

I discussed it with a local lawyer and we were in agreement that as long as the knife is not a spring-assisted or automatic, or it’s not obviously a weapon (it’s hard to argue that a double-edged dagger is for opening boxes and cleaning fish) and you’re not concealing it, then anything else goes. I could EDC a machete as long it’s not concealed, for example.

In all the many years I’ve lived here, I’m only aware of one incident of violence (a murder actually) that was committed with a knife, and that was a kitchen knife. I know everyone involved on a first name basis, I know what happened earlier that day that preceded the murder, and it was absolutely justified as self-defense. The state was in agreement with that and the man who killed a guy by stabbing him with a kitchen knife was let off all charges on grounds of self defense.

Note how that one incident alone, the only one I’m aware of, has literally nothing to do with the law/ordnance above.

It’s merely a cultural thing, people around here are just not violent on that level. Fist fights or even an all-out “rumble” where two groups of people meet in a chosen spot to have a sort of battle to the last man standing are not that uncommon. I used to do it quite frequently. But murder is extremely rare.

Contrast that with the neighboring metropolitan area’s much more complicated and restrictive knife laws, and the fact that their violent crime level is ridiculously high compared to here, and you’ll notice that there’s almost no relationship between the laws and the crime. It’s just a cultural thing.

Different cultural groups have different views on violence, just like they have different views on anything else. As far as I can tell, it’s not very realistic to attempt to change cultural things with legislation. It doesn’t seem to work.

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Chum
I think the polarization between political ideologies has become so vast that some sort of split is likely to happen, be it a mutual departure from one another, or a civil war. It's best to be armed at this time.

I think you might be over-estimating the polarization. It’s there and it’s very intense, I’m not disputing that, but the key thing is that I believe that a majority of Americans have no idea what’s going on politically.

The more dramatic elements of the polarization are highly visible online but what you’re not seeing is the “average Americans” who are not politically aware or active in a broader sense, but are simply trying to live their lives.

That’s why the Democrats, for example, keep advocating for crazy nonsense that most of the country rejects: They are confused about the numbers and they think they’re pandering to a much bigger group than they really are. When in reality they’re pandering to like 5% or 10% of the country.

The extreme authoritarian leftists are a minority, I’d estimate 10% or less of the country, and the equivalent on the right is probably even smaller. The politically-inactive people are probably still the largest group, which is why Democrats continue to fail miserably and embarrass themselves at every turn, they’re simply confused about the numbers. Plus Pelosi’s “leadership” is quite possibly the absolute worst in the history of the party.

I disagree Ryan. The divide isn't just on political sites, it's in everyday conversations, it's in sports pages, it's everywhere.

You are probably right about most Americans not understanding what is going on politically, but many of those same people have decided to follow one tribe or the other, and they just roll with what that tribe is saying.

The hatred for Trump is unprecedented. You literally have to go back to Lincoln to see this kind of divide, and you know how that turned out. Everyone is pissed, and even those that don't give a shit about politics are getting sucked into the debates.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member

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Chum
The hatred for Trump is unprecedented.

I think even that is overblown and exaggerated. There’s obviously a massive amount of bias in the news and most things like that, and his approval rating would almost certainly be massively higher if the media hadn’t spent the last 4 years doing everything possible to smear and characterize him in a negative way. But if you look at the turnout at democratic events and rallies, they’re absolutely pathetic compared to Trump’s events.

I think the truth of the matter is that while a large amount people definitely don’t like him, there’s a large amount who do like him and aren’t afraid to say so, and there’s also two other groups that are harder to get numbers on:

- People who don’t wanna admit that they don’t have a problem with him for social reasons (they don’t want to deal with the immediate backlash and labelstorm)

- People who don’t really like him much for reasons of optics and image (the spray tan, the Twitter stuff, etc.) but who don’t see any of the Democrats as being a sensible alternative so they’ll either stay home or vote for Trump.



A lot of people don’t like conflict and they also don’t want to be outcasts, so they say and do what the people around them do, but they don’t necessarily believe those things. It’s the same reason why polling for religious affiliation in America often leads to the impression that a very high majority of citizens are church-going Christians, but in reality the number is much lower. People simply label themselves as being vaguely Christian because they think it means they’re a decent person or something like that.

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Ryan Nafe

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Chum
The hatred for Trump is unprecedented.

I think even that is overblown and exaggerated.

I'm not interested in writing a thesis to debate you, but you're wrong.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member

As an outsider looking in, I have never before seen the level of contempt and hatred offered to a US President as I am now. The internet has been around long enough to say that it's not a recent social media exposing this.

Every single American movie in existence almost, that has the president as part of the movie, where the president is in danger will show a level of patriotism that everyone in the room will die to protect the president, because he is USA.. not because they voted for him, but because he is the standing president, and he is USA, and taking potshots at the president in any movie is a death sentence to such pot shotters.

yet now we have a situation where it is the Americans doing this, vehemently, with a ferver I've never seen in my lifetime.

It may well be from a minority looking like a majority. but the fact that its even occurring is just bizarre. When you hear statements from people saying they hope this virus kills lots of people and blame it on the President so he will be voted out.. its a form of lunacy.

It may or may not reflect reality. but its what the rest of the world is seeing looking in.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen

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Chum
I'm not interested in writing a thesis to debate you, but you're wrong.

Alrighty, Chum. No worries.

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cKc
It may well be from a minority looking like a majority. but the fact that its even occurring is just bizarre.

Yes, it’s definitely bizarre.

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cKc
When you hear statements from people saying they hope this virus kills lots of people and blame it on the President so he will be voted out.. its a form of lunacy.

Yeah it’s definitely some kind of unhinged craziness. I think it’s happening mainly because young people have been thought that patriotism/nationalism is evil/ignorant/backwards, and because people have had it so easy here for so long that they don’t know what the rest of the world is like. They’re comparing America to an imaginary utopia in their heads instead of actual countries and governments.

But again, what people say they want, and what they actually want, are often not the same. I really think statements like that more of a leftist virtue-signaling exercise than anything else, at least for most people saying that kind of thing. It’s become fashionable in most major metropolitan areas to dislike the guy.

It’s easy social points for people, talk about how Trump is evil or incompetent or something when you’re in a major city and you instantly get a certain level of respect and rapport with some number of people. The same way you would if you started talking about Jesus in other parts of the country. It’s just a fashion statement, a way to get into the group and feel like they’re all a part of the same thing.

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Here’s a thought experiment:

Bill Maher has said several times in the last couple years, publicly on his show, that he hopes there’s some kind of hardcore economic recession/collapse so that Trump won’t get re-elected. It’s out there on YouTube, I’m not putting words in his mouth, he’s said it.

Now imagine someone has a big fancy computer-filled laboratory with a big red button in the middle of it all, and pushing that button would produce an overnight collapse into a 1930’s-style Great Depression.

If Bill was brought into the lab, and given the opportunity to press that button, do you think he would actually do it? Just for a chance at getting Trump voted out?

I don’t think he’d do it. Not Bill Maher.

I do believe there’s a very small minority of very extreme leftists who probably would push the button, but I don’t think Bill Maher would do it.

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What gets said on Twitter, what gets said on the news, it’s not an accurate representation of the country as a whole.

His approval ratings are in the mid to high 40’s in the aggregate, most people in the country aren’t visibly active on Twitter, and all major news outlets are completely hive-minded echo chambers that are right in the middle of leftist havens.

So the realities at play in all this are far different than what’s visible on the surface.