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EN 45 spring steel TEST blades

Posted by Philip 
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Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 14, 2015 12:09PM
Quote
C Amber
Hi Philip,

Congrats on the new quench tank and that's cool you're having a large one fabricated. I'm also looking forward to seeing what you discover with the Lasher, but in the mean time I'm sorry the testing with the EN 45 is being so difficult.

I'm really not sure what could be causing it at this point. That damage definitely seems excessive, even if the heat treat is less than ideal...seems like there is something bigger going on.

Am I understanding it right that blade 5 was heat treated once before, and then you just re heat treated with the specs Scott gave?
Are you agitating the blade in the oil?
Are you sure you got the right steel?

Hi Collin

Yes blade 5 has been done before and thus went on for a second time. Yes I am agitating the blade in oil.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2015 06:34PM by Philip.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 14, 2015 12:39PM
The infamous LASHER



Ground it down to .015". Gave it a convex edge on belt. +- 20dps.

2 chops and it ripple



2 chops into a big knot and it was game over for the lasher



I ground test blade 2 back just a little and gave it a convex edge. +-20dps.It's .018" thick at the shoulders. Edge actually held up very well but the knot bent the bevel.





Did the same with test blade 5, ground it back and gave convex edge. Measuring .020" at shoulder of edge. Edge held up! Bevel rippled but after moving on to Oak. Edge still held up. Went to the knot and put 2 ripples into bevel but the edge is still intact. ???? I am aiming at the original ripple on primary bevel. I did not reground it that far to get rid of it completely.



Here I am showing the 2 new ripples. Closest to tip.



And this is the infamous knot that seems to be the challenge.



Now with with this new finding, I am not even going to waste my time grinding it down to .010". I am aiming for .020 and convex it. If there is any truth to the first mm don't hardened, then it can also explain why these blades perform better now that they were ground back. But not so sure. It is interesting that the edge is holding up but the bevel is bending.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2015 12:43PM by Philip.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 14, 2015 02:46PM
Test blade 3 reground and convex edge. No damage. Thickness at shoulder of edge is .027"

I am getting excited all over again. Now many questions are coming about. Is it that the first 1mm doesn't harden? If so, it explains the low HRC readings. These blades all did have differences in their HT but thus far results after regrinding are proving them all ok. Is it obvious that the tiny hollow edge created on the JET is not the way to go for this type of steel or should rather say type of blade and it's intended purpose?



I chopped some Oak and the "the knot" with no problems. I doubt it is chopping technique that improved which is leading to this.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 14, 2015 04:45PM
Test blade 1

Same as every blade thus far. Reground and convex edge. This blade chopped Oak only and had no problems.

Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 14, 2015 06:14PM
Philip,

Can you run an edge similar to 0.035"/15 dps.

That is what I would want to do the kind of work you are doing, regardless of the steel.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 14, 2015 06:38PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Philip,

Can you run an edge similar to 0.035"/15 dps.

That is what I would want to do the kind of work you are doing, regardless of the steel.

Yes I can do that. It'll be one of these test blades. But the JET is my only way of ensuring exact angles for edge and I'm afraid that the hollow created might be rather large and thus weaken it. But I will give it a go.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 14, 2015 06:45PM
Philip,

Given the state of the wood, and the size of the blades, I think I could ripple edges under 0.035" on some of the harder contact. Hence I am not sure that because the blades are failing are actually showing there is an issue with the steel.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 14, 2015 07:39PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Philip,

Given the state of the wood, and the size of the blades, I think I could ripple edges under 0.035" on some of the harder contact. Hence I am not sure that because the blades are failing are actually showing there is an issue with the steel.

It could be that the steel is an issue. The thought has crossed my mind that what I asked for and what I received is not the same thing. I still have blade 6 left to complete and I would like to believe that the HT is of better quality all around. I watched a video of Joe Calton earlier on YouTube and he was talking about reading the scale on the steel. Based on that, blade 6 looked the best. It was clean. Same as my O-1 blades. Anyway, this Monday I am picking up some K245 from Bohler. It's chemical composition looks great and I know I will get K245. I think that is the great thing about Bohler's steel, having one foundry in the world and shipping their steel world wide means that they have great consistency in the quality of their products..
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 15, 2015 10:48AM
Cliff

Here is your 15dps measuring .035 at the shoulders. The damage whilst chopping pine and oak rippled and rolled the edge from apex almost half way up the edge bevel. I must say that the pine I hit with force but very accurate. The oak, I held up with one hand, so cutting was diagonally and more of a wrist flicking motion. It did cut the oak very nicely though. But the knot remains king as you can see the very bad damage. No primary bevel rippling.







I suppose at this stage all is lying on blade 6. I will try to manage time today to grind it.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 15, 2015 01:19PM
That damage seems excessive for that geometry. I mean, I think you're getting closer on the heat treatment, but that still seems like too much damage.

By the way, really like the looks of that bolo/kukri/ barong looking blade you have on your facebook!

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 15, 2015 04:52PM
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C Amber
That damage seems excessive for that geometry. I mean, I think you're getting closer on the heat treatment, but that still seems like too much damage.

By the way, really like the looks of that bolo/kukri/ barong looking blade you have on your facebook!

Thanks Collin.

Those are awesome blades, 8mm O-1 tool steel. I think I am close to nailing the heat treatment on the steel. Blade 6 will have to wait for grinding this week sometime. However I will make another 1 just for just. Funny thing is, I had no damage with convex edge and the thickness at edge shoulder was thinner. I am getting some K245 from Bohler tomorrow. Lets hope this brings forth a chopper. At least I can be sure of the quality and the fact that I'll be getting K245 winking smiley
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 15, 2015 06:11PM
I think you're getting closer too, which is good. I mean, I guess this is what being a knifemaker is all about. And as a buyer I appreciate it when a maker has tested the product. Generally speaking, I don't care to buy from makers who tell me it should do well. I prefer guys like Calton, Keffeler, McCullen, and you that can tell me what it can actually do.

Looking forward to the further testing and the new steel.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 15, 2015 07:54PM
Those are nice looking knives, Philip! Experimenting & testing are ton of fun and at time flummoxed by data - haha putting it mildly. Lately, I can only tell between lousy & not-lousy knives, while non-lousy analysis are well hidden by statics and dynamic physics.

I agree with Collin - 0.035" BET 15dps edge shouldn't suffered that much deformation. Your blade probably lacked strength (i.e. low hrc)

Here is my test W2 chopper against pine pin-knots
[www.youtube.com]
0.02" behind edge thickness, 15dps

I recommend you made a couple knives in 1084 & 80CrV2, using them as base line for comparison. Those 2 steels are super easy to ht.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 15, 2015 08:08PM
Philip,

There is one main issue with this type of testing, what you are doing essentially is subjecting the knife to an unknown impact on an unknown hardness and noticing it takes damage. You need a reference point, ideally at least one blade which doesn't take damage.

It could be the case that you are simply swinging so hard at a knot so hard that any reasonable steel would take damage. If this is the case then the conclusions on your blades could be misleading.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
November 16, 2015 05:31AM
Collin

I will succeed winking smiley At this stage it is showing me that a convex edge is more needed for this steel.

Mr Bluntcut

Thank you and I agree but I need to test this steel just a little more in order to close the case. At this stage I am beginning to lean towards a different steel.

Cliff

I also agree with you fully on needing a reference blade. I will get that sorted and yes you are also right with the type of testing being difficult to gauge with regards to swinging and how the blade is actually making contact with the wood. But with that said and for what it is worth, my intention was to cut the wood rather then trying to damage the edge with the wood. By doing so, I can say that caution was present throughout the experiment. I think I should try simple cutting test with cardboard and rope just to see how the steel will hold up to regular cutting.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
February 25, 2016 01:57AM
Any news on this project, Philip?
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
March 16, 2016 07:05PM
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SecondCrack
Any news on this project, Philip?

Honestly I would say that there was an issue with the steel. The amount of work I put into it with such poor results spoke for itself. I do not believe what I asked for when purchasing was what I got. Anyway, I did manage to source a new batch of EN 45 and after many little heat treatment test samples I have finally got the results I was looking for. I can now comfortable continue with the experiment. In good time I shall post pics and info.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
March 24, 2016 06:40AM
PHILIP

Awesome work you are doing, a lot of effort but this will pay off in the end.
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
March 24, 2016 06:47AM
This blade is called the Dynamic Fighter and were designed by myself and made by Philip, thought you guys might like it.


]Dynamic Fighter[/url]
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
March 24, 2016 10:34AM
Looks pretty nasty. And I'm glad Philip you're getting better results now!

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: EN 45 spring steel TEST blades
March 24, 2016 02:56PM
Nice knives and set-up! I like the design and the concept of matched blades.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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