Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander

Posted by Chum 
DK
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 14, 2014 08:29PM
thanks for the info. it's appreciated.

"knives save lives" on youtube
all i want for christmas is more arm hair -DK-
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 02:49AM
If you wait until it is like -15F the electric motor turns really slow and you can use it on an edge. I discovered this during a cold snap this winter.

I don't use mine much, mostly for sharpening gardening tool. Gets a shovel edge very sharp. You can use it with light passes to hog metal off the primary grind and hand finish the edge. Something counter- intuitive to me, the courses the belt, the less the heat build up there is. I use water to keep the blade cool, just dip after every pass. The finish gets fairly mangled in my hands, but.....
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 03:46AM
Quote
DK
it will ruin the temper throughout the whole blade?

If you run it dry you have no control so there is no way to know how much of it is getting damaged, essentially you are putting it in an oven which has a random temperature setting. There are ways you can try to mitigate it but you have no way to know if damage happens or not.

All of these increase the heat transfer to the blade

-the more force applied
-worn belts
-longer continuous grinding
-finer belts (because you will naturally press harder and grind longer)

I have seen knives so over heated I have never been able to get the performance back out of them even after sharpening them many times. I have seen some that come back with just a little grinding and everything in between.

If you do decide to get it, here is what I suggest as a minimum :

-buy high quality belts which are very coarse, Norton Blaze 36 grit or similar
-get a cheap hair dryer which can just blow air without heating and direct it at the edge
-do not grind to the edge, leave it 0.010" thick

This isn't a guarantee that you are not going to over heat the blade, but it does reduce it.

The most important part is the belt. A Norton Blaze 36 grit is so coarse and cuts so fast that you only need very light passes and very few of them. I stress to use very light passes as in just be touching the blade, you do not need to press significantly.

A platen chiller is also about the simplest thing in the world to make, just put some copper tubing on the back of the platen and use a fish tank pump to circulate ice water through it to keep the platen ice cold.

If you look on YT you will also see many systems to use coolant, Jeremy has both ghetto systems and actual misters.

--

The thing to consider is basically this :

If you buy high end knives you are paying a LOT of money to get a very expensive steel which is expensive not simply because of the composition but because of the exact standards used in manufacturing which include precise controls over the time and temperature during all phases. Does it make sense then to subject it to an operation which is random in time/temperature and which could easily undo all of that precise work?

As an aside a lot of people say to use some cheap knives first. I strongly suggest not doing that. That is a great way to pick up bad habits because you are not going to care about what you are doing and once you have sloppy grinding habits they will be extremely hard to break and you will go back to doing them by default.

If you are just grinding very basic and low carbide steels like machetes then the Norton Blaze is over kill, nice if you have the money but a regular 36 grit belt is fine. However once you start using the Blaze (and similar modern ceramic belts) you are very unlikely to want to use anything else because they take grinding to a different level.
DK
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 04:07AM
i'm still thinking i'd like to try it out. for the mean time i've contacted jeremy mccullen and am sending him my sabre endura 4 in zdp189 to do a FFG to it. i'd rather have someone who knows what they are doing do it for now.

"knives save lives" on youtube
all i want for christmas is more arm hair -DK-
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 06:52AM
Quote
CliffStamp
As an aside a lot of people say to use some cheap knives first. I strongly suggest not doing that. That is a great way to pick up bad habits because you are not going to care about what you are doing and once you have sloppy grinding habits they will be extremely hard to break and you will go back to doing them by default.

Hmm, I'm not so sure I agree with that. I started regrinding some of my nicer knives first, and I really had no clue as to what I was doing. I wish I could take some of those early regrinds back.

I think it is inevitable that you will make mistakes when you start of doing regrinds. Once you make a mistake that can't be fixed without completely altering the knife in a way you never intended, you now have a piece of steel you can test things out with ie. various belts, pressures, angles etc. If you do this with a cheap knife it becomes a learning experience. If you do this with an expensive knife... it becomes an expensive learning experience and a dissapointment.

I suppose mind set comes into play. I'm trying to get better, so I do care when I make a mistake on cheap knife.





Cliff once mentioned that if you are going to do the water dip, use ice water with some salt mixed in and chill the blade prior to grinding. I'll take several knives, put then in a container filled with iced salt water, and let them sit there for a bit. I mark the end of the handles with a sticker numbered (1,2,3,4,5,6 etc.) Then I start grinding #1. Wipe it off and put it back in the ice water container. Then move on to #2 etc. I'm keeping the blades cold and I'm not continually grinding the same blade.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 07:09AM
Quote
Chum

If you do this with an expensive knife... it becomes an expensive learning experience ...

Exactly, and that correction is critical to development/learning. Studies into intuition/decision making have shown that correction is essential to learning/decision making and the most important things are :

-delay between action and correction
-force/impact of correction

This has broad range implications for all kinds of actions. There is a lot of focus on corrective punishments (in children as well as inmates) but it also is used in general training. It is why direct interaction has a much greater impact vs some kind of assignments with a huge delay in correction. There is too much of a delay and thus there is no rewiring of the response (in general).

Now some people are focused / goal driven so they can take a cheap butter knife and attempt to do crisp grinds and they are focused on the outcome and not the fact it is a $0 knife. However for most people they are almost guaranteed to scale down the importance of the correction and even in some cases ignore it. The main question is simply do you want to get good at grinding and avoid bad habits or do you want to try to mitigate learning "costs".

If you really want to learn fast then take your most prized knife and start on that. The disappointment in making a mistake is actually the thing that causes your brain to be rewired. It doesn't respond at all to making mistakes if you don't care about the outcome.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2014 07:47AM by CliffStamp.
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 08:01AM
Is this how you learned to do regrinds Cliff, by starting with your most expensive knives?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 08:42AM
Regardless of how I did or didn't do it doesn't change the general principles noted. The general concern is one of learning efficiency vs cost of correction. The more you are concerned with cost of correction and try to mitigate that the lower the learning efficiency.

I didn't actually set out to avoid expensive knives, it just so happened that most of my early work was on machetes and such where all I wanted was just to hogg off material and I didn't care about things like plunge lines or getting bevels straight or even damage to the blade as a whole.

But if you watch someone like Kyley he can grind just as fast as I can (I just mean moving the blade) but yet he does much more precise work and he isn't at risk for grinding anything he doesn't want to. It doesn't need to take longer to do it well.

The problem that I face now is not just learning how to do it right, it is unlearning how I wired my brain to do it wrong which is 10X harder and if I relax even for an instant I can grind right into the handle, guard, etc. unintentionally while working the blade, let alone scope up into the flats.

On a machete it doesn't matter, my brain however is wired to grind everything like cheap knives I don't care about so if I was to grind a coil notch with a belt edge I can very easily grind right up onto the bolster, handle, etc. - because again my brain doesn't think that is a problem at all.

In order to undo it I actually spend time mirror polishing blades before I do handle work and other things to try to force out all of these habits. But it is a slow process and if I really wanted to get good at it I would be doing it on other peoples knives (as that would mandate stronger corrections).
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 10:34AM
Quote
CliffStamp
... that correction is critical to development/learning. Studies into intuition/decision making have shown that correction is essential to learning/decision making and the most important things are :

-delay between action and correction
-force/impact of correction

This has broad range implications for all kinds of actions. There is a lot of focus on corrective punishments (in children as well as inmates) but it also is used in general training. It is why direct interaction has a much greater impact vs some kind of assignments with a huge delay in correction. There is too much of a delay and thus there is no rewiring of the response (in general).

I'm not going to argue against this. I don't know enough about it, but I do know that from my own experiences this has at least been partially true. However...

This doesn't take into account basic understanding. Take a child who has never done any painting, put them in front of an easel, hold a gun to their parents and tell them... paint something with as much artistic value and showing as much traditional technique as the Mona Lisa, or we blow your parents away. The child isn't going to be able to create the next Mona Lisa after his folks are killed. He probably won't be any closer to that achievment either.

Yes, this is an extremely over the top example, but I think it is valid in this case. Someone learning to regrind is going to have to learn via trial and error. They can listen to what people say here. They can watch excellent YT videos on the subject (see Kyley's YT page.) This still dosn't take the place of having an experienced knife maker stand there with you and teach you how to do it. Eventually you have to go the grinder and screw up some knives. Since trial and error WILL come into play BECAUSE you don't have a grasp of the basics, the "force/impact of correction" isn't applicable. It may in fact put someone off from trying to do future regrinds... "screw it, I just messed up my $500.00 Medford. I'm not cut out for doing these regrinds and I don't want to mess up any more of my knives."

After you have some of the basics covered, after you have successfully produced a nice regrind, THEN I think your "force/impact of correction" theory will have more merit. Prior to that it could have a negative mental impact.

In other words, there is a difference between an amateur with some knowledge and experience with the basics, and a rank amateur.






As for the "delay between action and correction" aspect... does this mean the time it takes between your mistake and the time it takes to correct it? I would agree with this. This is why I will/have acquired several of the same "cheap" knives at a time, and grind them at the same time. I'm trying to do the same regrind again and again and again. It also helps with the edge burning issue.






Quote
CliffStamp
Now some people are focused / goal driven so they can take a cheap butter knife and attempt to do crisp grinds and they are focused on the outcome and not the fact it is a $0 knife. However for most people they are almost guaranteed to scale down the importance of the correction and even in some cases ignore it.

You don't have to be as mentally disciplined as myself spinning smiley sticking its tongue out to create a goal with your regrinds, and in turn place value on your cheap knives. I plan to give out my regrinds as gifts. This gives them instant value to me. It truley pisses me off when I screw up a regrind. Call this a mental trick if you will.





In my brief history regrinding knives, the thing I have noticed the most is the vast difference in regrinding some steel over others. I have read about this... for years before actually experiencing it for myself. If you are new to doing regrinds, and you don't wish to use just expensive knives, I can't recommend these Bud-K specials enough...



Less than two dollars a knife, great handle, and very easy to regrind for a heat treated steel.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 02:24PM
Ant regrind on a Medford would be an improvement so your entire argument is invalid.

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 03:01PM
Quote
Mark a
Ant regrind on a Medford would be an improvement so your entire argument is invalid.

What's an "ant regrind?" I used Medford as a joke reference you silly rabbit.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
DK
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 03:11PM
this has been a thoroughly interesting topic. i thank you all for the answers and i love cliffs insight into psychology as i love psychology and it is one of my fortes aside from loving knives with a fiery and romantic passion. while on the subject of trying new things, i am also considering getting a tile saw and trying to make my own natural sharpening stone as i have mountains of different kinds of rock all around me out here in the boonies. i've always been a DIY kinda guy. why do you think i made my own knife? i wanted a custom made knife all my life and could never afford one so i figured if i took my time and did it right the first time, i could have one finally, and now i do and i love it. as a matter of fact during the course of hounding peters heat treat about my knife, i let slip that it was my first one and they seemed pretty blown away that this was a first knife as it seems many firsts don't turn out well but, i live my life by the "do it right the first time, so you don't have to do it again" motto and it has worked for me. i reground all of my most expensive and precious knives by hand and have had a very positive outcome. i am however somewhat impatient and feel i might be happier with a water cooled belt sander. i was looking at some at the hardware store today and i can get one ordered in for about $80 so i might be saving some clams for that as well as i was looking at tile saws and rubbing stones and may in the future invest in some of those as well. you can find norton 2x2x4 24 grit tile rubbing stones out of silicon carbide for about $10 apiece with free shipping, in case anyone who won't buy nubatamas from chef knives to go anymore might be interested. i'm thinking i'm gonna order one.

"knives save lives" on youtube
all i want for christmas is more arm hair -DK-
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 03:28PM
Quote
Chum
Take a child who has never done any painting, put them in front of an easel, hold a gun to their parents and tell them... paint something with as much artistic value and showing as much traditional technique as the Mona Lisa, or we blow your parents away.

That has a one time only correction and the goal isn't possible. The teacher is creating a situation where student will fail and they will see the consequence as unfair (because it can't be avoided) and it will have a negative impact on learning (plus create a psychotic break in the child).

If you view making a mistake on grinding a knife similar to your parents being shot and doing a regrind similar in skill/accomplishment as to creating one of the greatest pieces of art ever made - then maybe grinding knives isn't the thing for you.

What I noted is just one part of teaching, there are others. In particular :

-segmentation of the end goal into very small (practical) incremental steps
-visualization of the perfect realization of each step
-immediate and forceful feedback on each attempt
-constant progress (again in small steps)
-rewards for success (start off every one, but then are randomized) [*]

If you are constantly being disappointed then it simply means that you don't know how to set practical goals. If you are constantly being forcefully corrected, the problem isn't with the correction, it is that you are not working on a sensible program of advancement at all and have no idea how to move from where you are to your end goal.

Is it possible to make the correction so powerful it undoes the learning, sure. If damaging a knife would be so traumatic to you that you would stop grinding then don't do that. Pick the knife that you would not have a breakdown over, but you do not want to damage, and grind that. Again, if you want to learn effectively and not develop bad habits.



Quote

After you have some of the basics covered, after you have successfully produced a nice regrind, THEN I think your "force/impact of correction" theory will have more merit.

Every time theory is used that sense, someplace, somewhere, Greg Medford smiles and baby jesus sheds a silent tear.


[*] If it sounds like this would be a poor way to reward someone, it isn't. There is a wealth of data on reinforcement. Constant reinforcement basically breeds contempt for the reward, a random reward pattern after the initial provokes the strongest feedback response.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2014 03:39PM by CliffStamp.
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 03:29PM
Quote
Chum
Quote
Mark a
Ant regrind on a Medford would be an improvement so your entire argument is invalid.

What's an "ant regrind?" I used Medford as a joke reference you silly rabbit.

Any. Been drinking.

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 04:37PM
I agree with the pedagogy Cliff describes of breaking complex tasks into simpler components, visualization, feedback, achievement of selective reinforcement. In fact, it's part of the teaching method I utilize as a professor. There are other components, such building rapport, trust and effective communication including the use of story and real world application, recognition of alternative methods and outcomes, and helping students to parlay their past experiences into the concepts being taught. Of course, I probably learn as much from my students as I teach them. As we approach problems together from different perspectives, my own understanding of the nuances of complex principles expands and the basics continually get hammered on.

However, I agree with Chum that increasing risk and stresses an initial matter is likely to be counter-productive. If the average user has to start re grinding on their most expensive knife, the most likely outcome is that none or maybe one will be reground. They'll never learn the positive points for fear of mistake. Surgeons start off suturing on porcine skin for a reason.
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 04:59PM
Quote
CliffStamp
That has a one time only correction and the goal isn't possible. The teacher is creating a situation where student will fail and they will see the consequence as unfair (because it can't be avoided) and it will have a negative impact on learning (plus create a psychotic break in the child).

If you view making a mistake on grinding a knife similar to your parents being shot and doing a regrind similar in skill/accomplishment as to creating one of the greatest pieces of art ever made - then maybe grinding knives isn't the thing for you.

I did say "this is an extremely over the top example."




Quote
CliffStamp
Every time theory is used that sense, someplace, somewhere, Greg Medford smiles and baby jesus sheds a silent tear.

You added to your original statement and offered, in part, what I was suggesting...

"constant progress (again in small steps)" vs. "After you have some of the basics covered"

I think it is silly to tell someone who has never done a regrind to take their most prized knife and git to it! That actually sounds like something Medford would cook up... Sometimes on the battlefield, when the bombs are exploding over your head, your buddy is gushing blood out of his windpipe, and the whole world is FUBAR... you just gotta put on your warface and rush the enemy with everything ya got... and don't forget to carry a really thick knife.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 05:48PM
Quote
Chum

I think it is silly to ...

When I started studying quantum mechanics I thought it was absurd, I still do, doesn't make what is said about it any less true. It is simply mental to think that when you fire an electron at a target it actually takes all possible paths to that target and those paths actually infer with each other as if there were multiple electrons all traveling all those paths at the same time. And the really crazy part is that this only happens if you don't look at it because if you look at it then it doesn't do that, it just travels one path. But as soon as you turn away it starts doing all the crazy multiple path interference travels again and then if you turn around it goes back instantly to just moving in one path.

What I said specifically was if you want to learn fast then start on your expensive knives. I further explained why this enhances learning, and why using inexpensive knives you don't care about is very likely to cause problems. This is based on what is known about how the brain learns. The fact that you find that silly doesn't make it less true. I find lots of things silly when I first learn about them, it is just because when you hear something new you judge it against what you know/have seen. If you have not experienced it then many things seem absurd but again that doesn't make it any less true. Yes, lots of people don't do things this way - that is why lots of people learn extremely poorly.

--

Again, if the negative feedback is actually so strong that it prevents learning then the program is horribly designed because negative feedback should be extremely minimal (in frequency) compared to positive feedback. The only reason negative feedback is there is that it is needed on occasion to make the positive feedback worthwhile because you judge things always in a relative sense not an absolute one. If you are constantly getting negative feedback then you are always doing things wrong, there are many problems which will result from that, you need to be doing things right in order to learn efficiently.
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 06:01PM
The idea (or theory) of learning to grind on your most expensive knife as a means of not learning bad habits reminds me of an old saying: "the difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference and in reality there is." It also sounds like an argument one might make after being "visited by the good idea fairy", to use an expression from a prior career.
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 06:02PM
Quote
Cliff
Again, if the negative feedback is actually so strong that it prevents learning then the program is horribly designed
Right, like ruining your best knife by toying around with a grinder.....
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 08:41PM
The Mona Lisa is a bit overrated.

Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 15, 2014 10:52PM
Quote
Old Spice
The Mona Lisa is a bit overrated.

Argh! i know. it was just to illustrate a point!


Quote
Cliff Stamp
Again...

Again you are adding to your initially flawed, or incomplete, premise.

Please note how I actually agreed with you, or at least didn't disagree with you, regarding your initial statements on delay between action and correction & force/impact of correction. I simply stated that this premise was incomplete, and effectively flawed without the addition of some basic understanding of what you are trying to learn.


Quote
Cliff Stamp
if the negative feedback is actually so strong that it prevents learning then the program is horribly designed because negative feedback should be extremely minimal (in frequency) compared to positive feedback.

Chad nails it...

Quote
chad234
Right, like ruining your best knife by toying around with a grinder.....




Quote
Cliff Stamp
When I started studying quantum mechanics I thought it was absurd, I still do, doesn't make what is said about it any less true.

Explaining how you used to not understand something, and still don't understand that same thing even after studying it, in no way strengthens your argument. If you want to say that me saying a notion is silly doesn't do anything to strengthen my argument, fine. You could be more concise by simply saying...

"Calling something silly doesn't make it not true."

Or perhaps you were trying to strengthen your own argument, not on basis of its own merit, but by citing your scholastic endeavors.



Quote
Cliff Stamp
I further explained why this enhances learning, and why using inexpensive knives you don't care about...

And I have explained that it is quite possible to care about inexpensive knives. You can choose not to believe this, but this brings us down the road of things being true or not true regardless of what you believe.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 16, 2014 03:39AM
Where I think Cliff's theory falls, as Chum has pointed, is that it ignores that learning to grind is not just avoiding "bad habits", it is about learning good ones. At least for me, learning how much pressure, what time, how to orient and move the steel across the belt. Watching the grinding videos of the makers here, they make it look simple. I admit, I am terrible at it. Having started with an expensive knife would not change that, it just would have ruined an expensive knife. There is a learning curve. That's why Cliff started grinding on cheap knives, like everyone I know that has tried. It's why knife factories train new employees on mild or cheap steel blanks.

Would you give a teenaged new driver a very expensive car on the theory that there less likely to run into things? Learn how to sear protein by starting with a $200 piece of wagyu or sashimi grade toro? Learn to paint cars by starting with a Bentley? And on and on it goes.

Yes, a certain level of disincentive (negative response) avoids horseplay. But too strong a negative response ruins learning, not just in frequency but in magnitude. As Chum points out, the real incentive in learning is the desire to get it right. Even if the knife is a 2 dollar budk. I think Chum has covered it all here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2014 03:58AM by chad234.
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 16, 2014 04:45AM
I remember when I was learning to drive I took lessons and I was a bit older 18 instead of 16. When it came time to parallel park the instructor had me do it in between two expensive cars, a jaguar and I think it was a bmw maybe a Mercedes. And at the time I felt the incentive to get it right was very high.
I agree with Cliff. If I had been practicing between two beaters I doubt I would have had the same pressure. At the same time I still have a desire to do things properly.
Chad, you say would you experiment on a $200 piece of meat. Yes I would. Many times while working I have been in a situation where I have something very expensive and I have to do something to it that I may not be a master of or in my younger years I may have never done before.

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 16, 2014 06:40AM
I bet the driving instructor has had a few laughs over the years at the expense of the owners of fine automobiles. Do they teach basic finish carpentry using expensive exotic hard woods?
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 16, 2014 07:50AM
not typically, however I have been working for myself from very early on in my career.

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 16, 2014 08:23AM
Quote
Mark a
I remember when I was learning to drive I took lessons and I was a bit older 18 instead of 16. When it came time to parallel park the instructor had me do it in between two expensive cars, a jaguar and I think it was a bmw maybe a Mercedes. And at the time I felt the incentive to get it right was very high.

But you already had a basic understanding of how to drive and park. "When it came time" is the key phrase here. The Instructor didn't stick you in a car for the very first time and say... ok, go parallel park between those two expensive cars. You had already learned some basic driving techniques.

My father, could be called a stern man (certainly by today's standards.) He was all about firing me into a high risk situation quickly so I would learn quickly. It often worked. I did often learn quickly. In regards to driving... day 2 I had to drive backwards through a crowded parking lot and park repeatedly in all sorts of ways (ie. parallel, head in, back in.) It was highly stressful. However, that was day 2 and he was with me the entire time. Day 1 there was a lot of driving around in a big, unoccupied, parking lot so I could understand the basics.

My very first regrind attempt was with a knife that was originally the most expensive knife I had ever purchased. It no longer is and it wasn't at the time of the regrind, but it is still on the high end (for me) for a production knife. It was a Boker Vox BOB. I fucked it up something awful. It is so ugly now that I dare not show it in pictures here, for the shame of it smiling smiley

Seriously though, I'm not even sure I feel shame... ok I do feel shame, just not often or to a great degree. Anyway, I really messed up that knife, and I very much wish I had started with something that didn't have quite as much value to me. It wasn't a monetary issue at all because I had long ago purchased the knife and I have no intentions to sell it. It was more symbolic in that it was the first knife that I purchased after I joined what I call the online knife knut community. I learned a lot about knives from using that Boker Vox BOB. However, it put me off from regrinding for quite some time.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 16, 2014 08:42AM
pictures or it didnt happen....

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 16, 2014 08:57AM
Quote
Chum

Explaining how you used to not understand something, and still don't understand that same thing even after studying it, in no way strengthens your argument.

My point was that simply because something seems silly doesn't mean anything and isn't an argument for something not being true. I understand it (Quantum Mechanics) decently well, enough to write peer reviewed published research on the subject, it still seems silly and absurd and quite frankly I have never met anyone who thought otherwise. The way things behave on a quantum level are nothing like what is seen on the level for which we interact with the world. But the fact that it is silly/absurd doesn't mean anything aside from the fact that we have preconceptions of reality which are flawed to such an extent they provide an extreme and absurd contrast. This is true because our senses simply don't operate on that level at all and how we think is determined by our senses. This is why it took so long for QM to be accepted, as Thomas Kuhn wrote, it took a complete paradigm shift where a group of people just had to accept that it didn't matter if it was absurd, that was simply how it was - and quite frankly it went downhill from there with future ideas of entanglement and modern work in high dimensional space which is so abstract it doesn't mean anything to anyone but again, it explains the observations which again can't be seen by eye or sensed directly at all.

Quote
chad234
Where I think Cliff's theory falls, as Chum has pointed, is that it ignores that learning to grind is not just avoiding "bad habits", it is about learning good ones.

It isn't my theory, and it isn't even a theory, though the idea contains several of them including the way in which particular feedback influences the strength of brain coding responses.

The fundamental work was at least popularized by B.F. Skinner (who may or may not have conceived or formalized of the idea) and was greatly expanded through other work and eventually formalized to the perspective that conditioning is nothing more than the mechanism of feedback which shapes the frequency of future events.

Recently a lot of study has gone into how our brain adapts, often a lot faster than people realize and that "bad habits" are nothing more than the brain creating patterns because of very poor conditioning because it thinks you want the outcome it is programming into it as being success. Because undoing unwanted patterns is extremely hard (for most people it is practically impossible) it is becoming more clear that for efficient learning the focus has to be on proper habits initially because the cost of undoing poor ones is extremely high often unachievable.

As noted, if your learning program has you in trepidation because you are constantly failing and getting negative feedback, or the fear of negative feedback is so high it prohibits trying, the problem isn't the extent of then negative feedback. The problem is whoever designed your program doesn't know how to create proper goals because you learn through success, i.e., you get good at something by becoming better at it. In short, you don't know how to learn properly because you never had someone who was even competent at teaching and you don't even have the proper basic mindset as your visualization is on failure and not success.
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 16, 2014 09:02AM
Quote
Mark a
pictures or it didnt happen....

Alright, I'll take pictures of it tonight and post them. btw the Aus8 in that Boker is noticeably harder to grind than the Aus8 in the CS knives I've worked on.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Harbor Freight 1x30 Belt Sander
August 16, 2014 09:25AM
Quote
CliffStamp
My point was that simply because something seems silly doesn't mean anything and isn't an argument for something not being true.

I already noted this. I also noted how you then went on to do a version of scholastic acheivement name dropping. A sophist trick as Molyneux has been apt to say as of late.



Quote
CliffStamp
This is why it took so long for QM to be accepted,

It will be interesting to see when QM is completely abandoned as being false spinning smiley sticking its tongue out


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login