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Z-FiNit?

Posted by C Amber 
Z-FiNit?
May 26, 2014 07:29AM
Here's a newer steel to the knife market...seems very much so different than the HCV steels so commonly pushed these days.
[www.alphaknifesupply.com]

And here's a thread on bladeforums, where Michael Radar, a ABS Mastersmith, talks about forging it.
[www.bladeforums.com]

I don't really know what else it would be comparable to, or what class it falls into, but interesting nonetheless.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Z-FiNit?
May 26, 2014 10:18AM
The Aerospace tag is fairly meaningless, but sounds impressive to some. The only benefit this has over 14C28N is the much greater corrosion resistance because nitrogen doesn't bond with chromium as carbon does and thus there is more free chromium. However this also means less chromium carbides and less hardness (as the carbon content is reduced). It would thus be of interest to compare it to 12C27M which is has reduced hardness, wear resistance compared to AEB-L but greater grindability, corrosion resistance and toughness.

I would expect it to be very expensive though and given the high corrosion resistance of 14C28N and 12C27M when properly hardened, this is not a steel which is easy to argue for performance wise. Unless there are other issues such as ease of availability of stock, etc. .
Re: Z-FiNit?
May 26, 2014 02:49PM
Apparently it's the pretty much the same as Cronidur 30 which is pretty old.
I think it's even featured in Landes' book which is several years old.

Boker has had some sort of exclusivity over Cronidur 30. They use it for small folder but apart from the "space program" tag and the exoticsm it hasn't particularly shined.
Re: Z-FiNit?
May 26, 2014 04:09PM
Cool. Appreciate the perspective.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Z-FiNit?
May 26, 2014 06:26PM
As an aside :

- [www.spyderco.ca]

Ref : [www.spyderco.com]

Quote

Hi Grizz,

LC 200 N was probably the first Nitrogen steel made. I first heard about it about 15 years ago when NASA was looking at it. It went by the name of Cronidur 30. It was difficult to get. We've been looking for salt water friendly blade materials for many years. We've tried many steels and ceramics looking for that great salt water material. Being a sailor and a diver, I felt the need. When H1 became available, we felt that the technology was starting to get there.

When Zapp made it available under the LC name, they showed it to us. We had some connections with the people involved. The tusk is our first model with it. Now the "Real world" study begins.

sal

Very special purpose knife though.
Re: Z-FiNit?
May 26, 2014 06:45PM
Thanks Cliff.

Funny how "new" and "cutting edge" materials were around a long time ago when someone bothers to dig it up. Which probably means it might not be the "breakthrough" in knife performance everyone (including myself to an extent if I'm being honest) is hoping it will be.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Z-FiNit?
May 26, 2014 06:45PM
I like the look of that knife.

I wonder if it work hardens like the h1?

Cliff get one for your brother, he does decorative knots and such doesn't he? He would like it and you could test it.
Re: Z-FiNit?
October 04, 2014 07:41PM
Ferrum Forge Gavko Colab 2014
Product Classification
Type of knifeFolding Knife - Framelock
Overall Length (inches)8.6000
blade length (tip to handle)3.9000
Thickness (inches)0.1800
Handle Length4.7500
sharp edge length (inches)3.7500
Main Handle Materialtitanium
steel insert with build in overtravel, HRD (Hoback rolling detend)
ceramic caged bearings (gtc), sculpted titanium pocket clip with hidden screws, 0.175" thick Z-FiNit steel @61-62HRC heat treated by Elliot from Ferrum Forge

link: [data.gearbastion.com]


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
KWB
Re: Z-FiNit?
October 13, 2014 06:43PM
I would like to try this steel, but really only for its rust resistence

Contact 570-486-9095
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 22, 2017 08:19PM
Quote
CliffStamp
... this is not a steel (Z-FiNit) which is easy to argue for performance wise. .

I would appreciate a lot if you explained why...

Thanks a lot in advance!
KWB
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 23, 2017 05:00AM
Not Cliff but have worked with it and have noted it is similar to aeb-l in many aspects but tougher and more rust resistant. What one would need to look at would be how much do you really need if your knife edge is not rusting away functionally you dont need finit.

The last thing to note it is expensive like m390 expensive.

Contact 570-486-9095
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 23, 2017 05:39AM
Has anyone used Cruwear? Is it in the Super Blue or AEB-L/13C26 style of steels?

---------------------------------------------------------
Stone Sharp Edges
[www.youtube.com] [www.facebook.com] [www.instagram.com]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage.

-Cliff"

"Roman Landes said:
Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"

Sal Glesser -
".But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "designing in the dark"...

sal"
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 25, 2017 07:36PM
Quote
KWB
...have worked with it and have noted it is similar to aeb-l in many aspects but tougher and more rust resistant.

Well, sounds high performance to me.

I remember that Cliff said in this thread that Z-FiNit « is approx. AEBL with much higher corrosion resistance » and because of that I don't understand why he said in the present thread that Z-FiNit « is not a steel which is easy to argue for performance wise ». I'm kind of confused...confused smiley
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 26, 2017 03:33AM
I think he was saying something to the effect of: Why would you pay a large premium for a steel with less hardness potential and reduced chromium carbide volume in exchange for increased corrosion resistance and toughness that is unlikely to be of functional benefit over 14C28N?

Then, if you wanted that, you could just buy: "12C27M which is has reduced hardness, wear resistance compared to AEB-L but greater grindability, corrosion resistance and toughness."

-Nate
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 26, 2017 03:47AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Has anyone used Cruwear? Is it in the Super Blue or AEB-L/13C26 style of steels?

I have blades in all of those steels Jason, but unfortunately wouldn't venture to claim I could tell you much of any use about them lol.

I wouldn't say Cruwear is near AEB-L or Super Blue though, I think it's the most wear resistant in that group by a fairly wide margin. Then while Super Blue is relatively low in carbide volume compared to a lot of the extreme alloys that are popular, it has more carbides and is very high in carbon compared to AEB-L.

-Nate
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 26, 2017 05:05AM
Nate is correct, these steels dont have much in common as AEB-L is stainless
with good ratio of toughness and hardness and lower wear resistance.

Cruwear / PD1 is kind of semi-stainless with good wear resistance and
a bit higher hardness.

Aogami Super is highly reactive and very hard / strong with good wear resistance
I think It will be less wear resistant than PD1.

Crindur 30 / X15TN are a great steels same as this Z-finite.
Maybe more names exists..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
KWB
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 26, 2017 08:06AM
In the simplest of terms I can use to describe its only benefit is corrosion resistance. Unless you need a diving type knife as far as corrosion goes it doesnt pay to use it vs aeb-l

The one thing i have done in the past is send people blades to try in order to get a hands on feel. If you are serious about this inquiry pm me your address.

Contact 570-486-9095
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 26, 2017 09:37AM
Nate,
Thanks. On the Spyderco Forum those steels are often grouped together when mentioned, so it made me wonder, since I have only used the 13C26/12C27/12C27M and White Steel (No 1 or 2?).

---------------------------------------------------------
Stone Sharp Edges
[www.youtube.com] [www.facebook.com] [www.instagram.com]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage.

-Cliff"

"Roman Landes said:
Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"

Sal Glesser -
".But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "designing in the dark"...

sal"
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 26, 2017 01:10PM
I recently asked Gavko about one of his Z-FiNit knives...

Quote
Chum
Can you tell any differences between Z-FiNiT and AEB-L? Performance wise or grinding?

Quote
Gavko
They grind very similarly, but zfinit doesnt support super thin edge as aebl does, but zfinit blows pretty much every other steel in rust resistance.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 29, 2017 12:34PM
Quote
Chum
I recently asked Gavko about one of his Z-FiNit knives...

Quote
Chum
Can you tell any differences between Z-FiNiT and AEB-L? Performance wise or grinding?

Quote
Gavko
They grind very similarly, but zfinit doesnt support super thin edge as aebl does, but zfinit blows pretty much every other steel in rust resistance.

At this point we should know the heat treat behind..
because there should not be a noticable difference..
Any ideas why ?

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
KWB
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 30, 2017 05:49AM
I am not sure I really underatand your question.

The difference is finit is tougher but doesnt reach the same hardness aeb-l can. I support what Gav have said as I have noticed the same, finit is more likely to roll and edge or grind then chip, which could be a good thing provided the edge geometry and edge angle are balanced so you can fix the edge quick provided you didnt roll the grind.

Contact 570-486-9095



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2017 06:06AM by KWB.
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 30, 2017 09:18AM
Isnt it possible that z-finit was at lower hardness ?
Because it should perform almost the same at the same hardness.

I never used it but I have Nitrobe77 and I can tell you 0.9N and 0.1C
can hold pretty low angles anywhere from 61 higher..

Nitrogen is austenite stabilizer so nitrogen steel will have Mf temp lower.
Without proper cryo it wont be so good..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
KWB
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 30, 2017 02:42PM
It should yes, pht could only get my blades to 60 i guess gav had his at 63hrc?

Contact 570-486-9095
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 30, 2017 04:26PM
z-finit at 63HRC ? that should be capable of holding a very low angles..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 30, 2017 06:39PM
For anyone who may be interested and doesn't follow the Spyderco forum/newsletter, the LC200N mule is going on sale April 12 for $69.95.

-Nate
KWB
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 30, 2017 06:46PM
I dont think its low angles that I seen as a problem. It just doesnt seem to have the lateral stability aeb-l does. finit i had was 60, aeb-l was 63 knives were near identical in stock, grind, and edge angle.

Contact 570-486-9095
Re: Z-FiNit?
March 31, 2017 07:21AM
That is exactly my point, it was weaker significantly than your AEB-L
of course it wasnt able to hold so well at low angles. 60 and 63 is quite a difference.

Now I will be guessing, but I think all your blades were hardened by same procedure.
put to the same furnace, same quench, same cryo, same temper..

when nitrogen substitutes carbon max attainable hardness may drop by a little,
but that doesnt mean you will get 1HRC less with finit by the same procedure
as for AEB-L.. There needs to be adjustments and most likely werent
and that is why the difference was 3HRC points.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
KWB
Re: Z-FiNit?
April 02, 2017 01:50PM
Pht said 60 was that max hrc they could get. I dont have my own oven so pht is who I use. Is everything always ideal? Well no because I dont have control of every aspect.

But for the price and the amount I pay I think I have a decent product.

I will note however ferrum forge ht Gavs blades if I am not mistaken and they were said to be at 63hrc? But Gav has stated the same things I have noted.

If you have experience in the ht of this steel I think PHT and myself would be interested in ht protocols. I would prefer if finit would be 63hrc it seems to have a good amount of toughness.

Contact 570-486-9095



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2017 01:55PM by KWB.
Re: Z-FiNit?
April 03, 2017 01:29AM
I ve never used it because I never assumed its cost to be worth the same performance as AEB-L.
Now it seems it wont even have the same performance..

I think 61 for sure would be possible, however after better look I have to admit probably
it wont get harder than that because those extra 2% of Cr have to influence this.
That is the reason why AEB-L do not contain over 13% Cr..

Not only it has more Cr but because part of C was substituted w N with low affinity.....
it results in even more Cr in the solution and it lowers the max hardness of the matrix.

But it makes sense, these alloys were designed as improvement for bearing alloys
to become more corrosion resistant and tougher at cryo applications.. there was no
requirement for higher strength.. also the friction was lowered..

I dont think such scheme is something hard to figure I dont mind to share
with you here but I dont think peters lacks such basic knowledge.
I have no experience with petersht but I have with others big ht corps as BU
here in Europe and basically no batch hardening can achieve the results
of piece hardening. I confirmed that to myself already many times.

I didnt try to criticise your product or you, 60HRC is a decent edge anyways.
Only wanted to explain what made the difference.

However I see the reason to use N in steels like RWL-34 where you almost
completely substitute C with N with some other minor changes.
And get Nitrobe77 that is the steel with the structure approximately as fine as AEB-L
higer strength, improved corrosion resisitance, wear resistance, and still tougher than 440C or similar.
For something like that I am willing to pay so I bought all stock I could find in Europe for reasonable
price. But still only about 4x38x1500mm and cut part of it for about 70 euros into 36 samples to test the ht..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
KWB
Re: Z-FiNit?
April 03, 2017 02:18PM
I would like to try nitrobe 77, just need to source it.

Although the ht for that steel from what I understand is quite intensive and PHT would need to handle that.

Finit is good for kitchen and diving knives but thats about it unless you want a tougher aeb-l with much higher corrosion resistance at a much much higher price.

I should note however in use even at 60 it is hard to distinguish aeb-l from from finit. Cliff has a video explaining the difference in cutting material is greater than the difference in steel.

Contact 570-486-9095
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