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My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2

Posted by marthinus 
My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
June 24, 2012 12:00PM
Manix 2 DLC
This is a cryptic review style of my thoughts as I use the knife and feel like writing them down. So this will not read like a good story.

Stats according to the Spyderco website:
Code: C101GBBK2
Length overall 8 " (203 mm)
Length closed 4.625 " (117 mm)
Blade thickness .125 " (3 mm)
Blade length 3.375 " (86 mm)
Cutting edge 2.875 " (73 mm)
Handle material G-10
Blade steel 154CM
Weight 4.25 oz. (120 g)






Initial impressions

• Blade looks good, really like the black coating, my first.
• Like the CBBL. Has a learning curve of slight manipulation when use to Axis. No blade play in any direction.
• Slight side to side when blade is in the opening and closing arch.
• Edge is ground even and Spyderco sharpness.
• G10 is a medium coarseness.
• Knife feels good in the hand and has some heft to it, not as heavy as I expected. Good solid feel in the hand.

Fit and Finish

• Well within the price range IMO. Slight tooling marks on liners and the lanyard tubes spacer between liners are not flush.
• Those are the only two issues, but I am nit picking to find something wrong such as the tooling marks. These are slight things that won’t affect the functionality of the knife. The scales are flush and the blade is centred.

Ergonomics.
• The knife fits well in the hand in most common grips in the hand. The handle seems to suite me slightly better than the Para2.

Updated after two weeks (15 May 2012)
• Blade has not shown any marks of use. DLC seems to be holding up well.
• BBL is sturdy, no real movement since I recieved it, maybe half a milimeter in the first 2 days and since then nothing.

Edge and Edge geometry
• I like hollow grind knives. I have always since it functions well. It ground really thin with a slight convexed edge initially out of the box, much the same as on a Sebenza.
• Slightly reprofiled to a lower angle and polished on the UF stone of Spyderco, tried to keep the slight convex, then applied a micro bevel of 600grit after using it for a while with the UF edge.
• I use this on most of my knives that are theoretically higher in carbide content.
• When in use 154CM performs as expected and with no real deformation in normal everyday use. On site it loses some of its initial sharpness but remains cutting effeciently.
• The knife can still peel an apple at the end of the day so I am happy. I however did not cut materials such as sand bags. In my experience this destroys any plain edge and therefore I use my Atlantic Salt.
• The tip is thin and one should not try to pry with it
The tip:


The polished edge:



Ergonomics
• I really dont notice any difference between the Para2 and Manix in use.
• However I do feel that the Manix's shallower thumb ramp suites me better when using the choil or I want to do more precise cuts.
• The knife rides well in the pocket, I dont really notice the weight (some people complain about it) since my clothes are usually on the heavy side. So used to it probably.
• The jimping works well with gloves, however for extended periods of cutting with it without using gloves the jimping can become somewhat irritating to the hand.
• I used the knife while working on some fish for lunch, my hands were covered in oil, yet the knife would not slip out the hand when using the choil. I did notice (while I was washing the knife) that when the knife was held in the normal grip one could pull the knife out of the hand , therefore ones hand can slip off the knife towards the back. However when using the choil the knife would not slip at all. The deep finger groves prevent any forward slipping.

Oily hands:



Normal grip while washing


Using Choil

6 June 2012
• The knife has been working well. Had some pipes that the grind struggled with. Dont know if it was just my technique but did cut the pipe in the end (first pipe cut in the video).
• Been using the knife around water as well and no rust or other issues to report.
• The coating is still holding up well. The only real scratched has been due to my hand slipping while sharpening on diamonds, but the nicks have been minor.
• Knife has been reprofiled and it takes a polish well.
• The lock is still functioning well. No issues to report. Still solid.
Some use:


Video:

[VIDEO]

[/VIDEO
24 June 2012
• At this stage as expected the clip and coating is showing some wear. The coating however has not come off, showing some signs of wear but it is still on the blade (if that makes sense?)
• The G10 has some flat spots on it from use, but that is normal for me.
• Nothing more to report that has not been stated
Clip wear

Conclusion

This is a workhorse of a knife with a reliable lock and good design. The knife is kept within Spydercos design philosophy of Reliable High Performance and it delivers IMO.

The most important test it passed:




Some beauty shots:




Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
June 24, 2012 12:17PM
A few questions :


a) Any concerns with the steel as compared to the trend of very high carbide stainless which is now popular, i.e., did you ever feel the performance was lacking?

b) Thoughts about such an ultra fine tip on what is otherwise a very heavy duty knife?

c) Any reactions from other people when using such a large knife?

d) Differences felt in use in any thick/binding materials compared to a high flat ground knife?

e) How does the lock operate if you wear gloves?

f) If the knife gets dirty, will the lock self clean?




Very comprehensive and detailed commentary, and very nice mirror polish.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
June 24, 2012 12:52PM
Nice summary Marthinus, and great photos at the end there.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
June 24, 2012 01:34PM
Nice writeup.

Cliff, what do you mean by big knife? Overall it's a bit smaller than a Paramilitary. I think it was the replacement of the Mini Manix.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
June 24, 2012 01:38PM
Quote
CliffStamp
A few questions :


a) Any concerns with the steel as compared to the trend of very high carbide stainless which is now popular, i.e., did you ever feel the performance was lacking?

Not in my uses. I do not have any of the major high vanadium steels such as M390 or S90V so I really cant compare it to them. 154CM has worked well for me and my tasks. It might require 2-3 strokes on a 600grit diamond stone at the end of 2 days of cutting farious things compared to 3-4 days in S30V but I am not dissapointed. It takes and holds a good enough edge for me and if required I will use a piece of wire or even the back of the steel saw on my Swiss Army Huntsmen just to steel the edge as good as I can get it. A knife does not need to be hair shaving sharp all the time for me.

b) Thoughts about such an ultra fine tip on what is otherwise a very heavy duty knife?

I could understand that most would like a thicker tip, but I grew up with thin knives and thin tips and learned how to use a knife and make it work for me. So no real issue for me, I just concentrate more on the cut rather then just going at it

c) Any reactions from other people when using such a large knife?

Not in our country, maybe in a office environment, but on site people dont even notice, just get the job done. It is a tool part of my trade

d) Differences felt in use in any thick/binding materials compared to a high flat ground knife?

That first pipe I cut definatly, I was actually surprised because it kept up quate well with the high flat grinds in many of the other materials.

e) How does the lock operate if you wear gloves?

It can be done with some gloves one-handadly.





However not with heavy winter gloves. I struggle to 'feel' the lock proparly with one hand and the repositioning it requires in one hand

Here you can see me opening and closing an Atlantic Salt, I basicly apply the same principle of two hands when wearing winter glothes for night shift. One hand holds the blade, the other depresses the lock and fold close


For this discussion it is only worth watching from 2:58.

f) If the knife gets dirty, will the lock self clean?

In my experience with fly ash bags I cut yes. I will have to really get the knife dirty and get it on camera for you but it will have to wait a while. Night shift is coming up and cant make videos then.


Very comprehensive and detailed commentary, and very nice mirror polish.

Thank you, the Spyderco UF stone (small one) does a great job smiling smiley

I hope this answers some of your questions, my apologies for any spelling, I am really getting tired and struggling to type.

Thank you all for the kind words.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2012 01:40PM by marthinus.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
June 24, 2012 02:24PM
Quote
styx

Cliff, what do you mean by big knife?

Just a relative term, mainly comparable to the size of the hand, width of the blade, size of the handle.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 05, 2012 07:35AM
Well today was a long day and I cut a lot of bags containing fly ash. The 154CM seemed to have met its match as the edge was rolled significantly and I also had a chip when my hand slipped and I hit a nail. The roles were delt with by steeling on the Swiss Army knife saw and I continued to do the work.

Cliff.

After the weekend passed I got my largest Carbide containing folder (I believe). My Gayle Bradley with CPM-M4. I will carry it for some time again and see if I can't get to cut the same amount of bags.

Of coirse there are many variables but it should be interesting.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 05, 2012 07:44AM
That will be interesting as the argument from the people who use M4 in the cutting competitions argue that at the same hardness it has a higher resistance to denting/rolling than other steels. It would be interesting to see this confirmed/refuted with a few side by side comparisons, repeated a few times to see if a pattern emerges.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 06, 2012 03:11AM
That comparison will be interesting on the level of very hyped folder steels. M4 is seen as great and many count on 154CM as inferior to it on a work horse knife.
SO it will be interesting to see how they compare.

Martin how are you satisfied with the performance of the knife when it comes to comfort during hard cuts and the steel in general?
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 06, 2012 07:47AM
Quote
styx
That comparison will be interesting on the level of very hyped folder steels. M4 is seen as great and many count on 154CM as inferior to it on a work horse knife.
SO it will be interesting to see how they compare.

Martin how are you satisfied with the performance of the knife when it comes to comfort during hard cuts and the steel in general?

When using gloves the knife has little issues when doing hard cuts, however when not wearing gloves the jimping towards the base of the handle can become irritating. Most of the time for hard cuts I wear gloves as it is a requirement according to health and safety rules on site.

As for 154CM. I feel in the Manix line it is a fine steel choice. It sharpens easily, keeps a edge well in my uses. I would love to get out hunting, some of the hardest work for a knife, but I feel I am out of luck this year.

Truth be told: comparing the two steels I am at a bit of a loss. I am thinking of doing two things. Comparing both at a high polished edge and then do a 600grit course edge and see how they perform.

My hypothesis is that with the high polished edge I will experience the same edge rolling on both, but with the 600grit finish the M4 will pull ahead.

That's based on my understanding of the composition differences in the two steels and 'carbide breakout'.

Feel free to correct me.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 08, 2012 06:17AM
Yet oddly Spyderco put S30V on the Manix line now over 154CM.
The steel comparison sounds good. You'll see how the edge retention is and how much damage will the steel take. Just don't forget the geometry
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 09, 2012 12:45AM
Quote
styx
Yet oddly Spyderco put S30V on the Manix line now over 154CM.
The steel comparison sounds good. You'll see how the edge retention is and how much damage will the steel take. Just don't forget the geometry

I cant help think that this is due to public demand and perception that 154CM is "bad". In my experience 154CM and S30V perform very similar at the same angles. I actually just went very low on my S30V Para2 to see if I cant get better performance from it 10 degrees per side:



I am expecting some chipping rather then rolling with this edge and think I will have to apply a micro bevel (also going to be 600grit and then maybe it will outperform 154CM, but only with a LOT of cutting)

Here is some cutting done with the GB. High polished.






That damn cement gets everywhere:




Findings so far: It seems that both knives dull via edge rolling after 6-7 cuts as shown in the video.

The edge rolling seems to the naked eye to be very similar in size at this point.

As the day continued and cutting went on I found that the rolled part of the M4 seems to stay the same size in width, but on the 154CM increased slightly, this is to the naked eye.

Both steels had chipped at the end of the day, the M4 having the smallest chip.

Conclusion so far:
Both edges rolled at the same rate, only after a days work was there SOME precieved difference to the naked eye on the edge. I feel one would have to do a LOT of cutting in order to really experience any advantage of M4 if both are sharpened to a high finish.

Next round is both with 600grit finish.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 09, 2012 12:51AM
On a side note regarding the GB and people complaining about the relief for the lock:

It is difficult compared to something like the military or a knife with a big cutout, but it can be done with some practice.



Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 09, 2012 03:18AM
Great, thanks for the vid of opening and closing the GB.

I think you're starting to show the main flaw of CARTA tests. And the steel fans that act like pushers.
At the same geometry and finish steels will react differently on the amount of material being cut. With this it's easy to note that if you had gone further without resharpening the knives, like for a whole week, there would be a more noticeable difference between them.

I just hope you won't get spammed with comments about S35VN, ELMAX, D2, S30V and CTS-XHP and their performance.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 09, 2012 11:04AM
Styx

So far IMO unless one is going to do a LOT of cutting without maintenance like Ankerson does in his tests a person that has the same school of thought as me (namely: everyday maintenance is part of the tool) I doubt a person will see significant edge retention differences unless there is something very wrong. I don't mind sharpening or removing steel everyday, it is somewhat relaxing and I think: 'getting some good character on this knife now'. I LOVE Ankersons's picture of his S90V Para2 that shows the wear. I want my knives to look like that! Users, character, a soul like an old car. Even if it takes years of use, mistakes, dings...

I doubt I will get spammed. My answer is simple: all of today's steels are good if heat treat is correct, how good is your maintenance and sharpening skills? (Talking about folders here mainly for cutting, chopping is a whole other story)
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 09, 2012 12:16PM
I decided to through in another steel just for fun.

Tonight its the Para 2....the S30V acts much the same as the M4 and 154CM with the high polish rolling at 7-8 cuts despite the different grinds and 2degrees per side angle difference sliding of the nail and not catching any more. Really surprised by that. I thought I would get chipping or dramatic edge failure at 10degrees per side. I have my diamond paddle with 600grit and applied a micro bevel.

DAMN! What a difference! (Approx 15degrees per side, will measure tomorrow to make sure) 18 cuts through the cement bag, no rolls, no chips, and it still catches the thumb nail all the way to the tip. Curious to see how the other two compare with the same 600grit micro bevel (will try and keep the angles close as possible).

Will try and get a video on me steeling or sharpening tomorrow. Dont have to camera, my co-worker has it for his shift.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 09, 2012 12:16PM
Quote
marthinus
I cant help think that this is due to public demand and perception that 154CM is "bad". In my experience 154CM and S30V perform very similar at the same angles.

This mainly comes from the CATRA data and people not understanding what it really means. If you look at the CATRA data, you can find that these compare as close as 15% in the difference, that is a tiny amount and CATRA goes to a huge amount of cutting to drastically increase blunting of the edge. I doubt anyone who sharpens knives uses their knives to the point that they are even close to how dull they are on a CATRA run, as a rough benchmark I would say most people would sharpen at 1/4 - 1/2 of the length of the run and thus you are looking at maybe a 5-10% difference, good luck trying to see that in regular use without recording a lot of numbers.

Interesting what you have found in the rolling on 154CM and M4, it is what you would expect as M4 should have a higher edge stability.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 09, 2012 12:45PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
marthinus
I cant help think that this is due to public demand and perception that 154CM is "bad". In my experience 154CM and S30V perform very similar at the same angles.

This mainly comes from the CATRA data and people not understanding what it really means. If you look at the CATRA data, you can find that these compare as close as 15% in the difference, that is a tiny amount and CATRA goes to a huge amount of cutting to drastically increase blunting of the edge. I doubt anyone who sharpens knives uses their knives to the point that they are even close to how dull they are on a CATRA run, as a rough benchmark I would say most people would sharpen at 1/4 - 1/2 of the length of the run and thus you are looking at maybe a 5-10% difference, good luck trying to see that in regular use without recording a lot of numbers.

Interesting what you have found in the rolling on 154CM and M4, it is what you would expect as M4 should have a higher edge stability.

I'm still very interested in 154CM because of this knife...
Ontario SK5 Blackbird


I have gotten 154CM confused with CPM 154. Which one are we talking about here?
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 09, 2012 01:03PM
154CM the normal Ingot steel. The Paricle alloy CPM 154 would be an amazing all around good choice for the Manix design IMO. I have the equivalent alloy RWL-34 in a folder. It takes a great polished edge or a course edge. The user can decide what works best for them IMO with CPM 154 or RWL34. I have used my Gareth Bull SA Hunter and Warlock with RWL34 for some time on site, camping etc and it is a great all around steel.

Cliff

I am really surprised at the S30V. I did not expect the same type of rolling as the other two . I expected chipping. Don't really know how to interpret that?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2012 01:09PM by marthinus.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 09, 2012 03:21PM
S30V is a pretty interesting steel from a historical perspective. It was promoted as being a super tough stainless and thus impressions of it were extremely high, this was a stainless steel people were going to use for swords. When it first came out the reports of chipping were very common (relative) and I handled quite a few of the blades myself and verified that they would chip very easily, in fact some of them were even difficult to sharpen as they chipped just in honing. There was quite a blow up about this and there were vague implications and assertions that changes were made to the mix and of course the heat treatment to resolve the problem.

In reality I think all that happened was that people realized that it really wasn't significantly different from any of the high carbide steels (which is born out by the actual impact numbers) and they relaxed their impressions and possibly Crucible reduced the carbon content and the manufacturers may have lowered the soak temperature or increased the tempering temperature - however it is impossible to get anyone to admit that and give hard numbers, just a lot of conjecture. Bottom line though, it is a high wear steel, fairly stainless and as tough (or lack of toughness) as any of the very high carbon stainless steels like 440C / ATS-34.

Note even fully hardened steels have a plastic region and properly hardened should show it visibly, if an edge cracks without any deformation then it would be hard to imagine that it was hardened properly. Even full hard 1095/M2 (which I own), and ZDP in the mid sixties, will show edge roll after use if you look at them under magnification. Of course it depends on what you mean by roll, if it is just blunting then it should be roll, if it is visible deformation as in actual damage, those steels tend to chip as the plastic region is pretty small in a small cross section as the carbides limit it.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 10, 2012 12:27AM
The Para 2 thoughts:



Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 10, 2012 01:08AM
I agree with maintaining your tools. Sometimes sadly that's not possible (40+ hour shifts). Only then is the difference in steel visible to some degree.

Still gotta watch the Para2 commentary
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 11, 2012 10:13AM
Styx

You working 40hours? Ouch! I do about 15 a day and then work in a gym session as well to get rid of the stress. Almost finished with this project, don't know what will happen from there on, will have to wait and see.

Here are the preliminary results on 600grit:

154CM
15 cuts through the bags: some rolling started
18 cuts: still grabbing the nail, but starting to slip.
20 cuts: slipping of the nail

M4
15 cuts: no edge damage, still biting the nail
20 cuts: no edge damage, still biting the nail
30 cuts: starting to slip of the nail, but sill biting, noting some edge rolling.

After the shift: 154CM rolled quite significantly not catching the nail at all. M4 still catching the nail at certain places.

It seems as iff the M4 is rolling less then 154CM and chipping less then S30V gevin the same tasks. I still have to inspect the M4 under magnification and then do the steeling to see how well the edge can be re-alligned on both. I had to resist touching up the 154CM today because my Ipods battery was flat and want to catch it on video.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 11, 2012 12:18PM
That is a pretty impressive feat of precision, if you compare it is 30 vs 20, so a 50% advantage. Now if you look at Bohler's CATRA of the same two steels it is 65% in favor of M4, very strong agreement with your results.

If you go back quite a few years, Alvin Johnson also competed ATS-34 vs M2 and found the same, far less damage and far greater edge retention with M2. It was more than 50% there, but he was comparing full hard M2, hacksaw blades (65/66 HRC).

Is there any significant difference in sharpening?
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 12, 2012 02:26AM
Cliff

Thank you for that information. Very surprised that my data is not that far off from Bohlers'. Maybe cement bags will become the new testing material for everyone rather then cardboard spinning smiley sticking its tongue out hot smiley

Here you can see how I touched up the edges to get them back to working capacity.



Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
July 12, 2012 06:31AM
Those are great results for both steels.
And nice to see that they come back fast enough.

As for working 40 hours, it happens ever now and then. Sadly the most tools that got broken were within the first 6 hours of working. Goes to show that if sth will break then it's gonna break no matter the length of usage
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
November 12, 2012 06:58AM
Some further thoughts:



Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
November 12, 2012 12:56PM
This is a nice test. Ever tried it with other locks?
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
November 12, 2012 11:29PM
Quote
styx
This is a nice test. Ever tried it with other locks?

Thanks for the kind words. I have not tried it with other locks. Might try it with a compression lock. The Para2 is also my yard knife as the Manix2.

Did you see the Axis lock tests that were done? They seem to be unavailable, or I cant find them on youtube. I have them on the home pc.
Re: My thoughts after some time with my Manix 2
November 13, 2012 01:53AM
No, I just saw the ZT560 thoughts. Left a comment on that vid
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