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HAP40 Endura 4?

Posted by StanLee 
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HAP40 Endura 4?
March 14, 2015 04:32PM
Hey Cliff and gang, I was browsing Spydercos forum and noticed there is talk of an Endura 4 sprint run in HAP 40. I hadnt really heard of the steel. Figured I would cut through the hype and see what you had to say about it. I wish they were picking a different platform mainly because of the Endura's geometry being a bit thick behind the edge. And if its a steel capable of high performance, it would be nice to see it in like the Caly platform or something similar.

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question, than a fool can learn from a wise answer.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 14, 2015 04:54PM
HAP40 looks to be pretty heavily hyped in the kitchen knife industry, being used in a lot of high end Japanese kitchen knives. Zknives steel chart says its comparable to Bohler Vandais 30 or AISI M3.

I have no idea about performance other than the fact it's a tool steel.

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Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 14, 2015 05:12PM
HAP40 is an odd HSS for cutlery as it is a high-cobalt HSS. Cobalt is used to significantly increase hot hardness as it delays the precipitation of secondary carbide formation and thus allows running tools hotter for longer. It makes little sense to look at those steels for cutlery in hand held knives. I suspect that these kind of choices start because either a steel is made available from the manufacturer for some reason.

Ignoring the cobalt, it is a modification of M2 to increase carbon/vanadium to increase maximum hardness and wear resistance. However if you actually want that then you would just get M4 which does the same thing, just doesn't have the Cobalt.

While I can appreciate Spyderco looking at new steels, I think it is unfortunate the way they are being presented. It used to be that Spyderco would present data when they used new steels; q-fog, catra, HRC ranges, and make an actual argument that the steel actually does something productive. However now it just looks like as a steel gets a name then it gets a knife, it is just leveraging branding.

Now this is a sensible way to make money sure, but it used to be Spyderco was more than that.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 14, 2015 05:27PM
Quote
CliffStamp
HAP40 is an odd HSS for cutlery as it is a high-cobalt HSS. Cobalt is used to significantly increase hot hardness as it delays the precipitation of secondary carbide formation and thus allows running tools hotter for longer. It makes little sense to look at those steels for cutlery in hand held knives. I suspect that these kind of choices start because either a steel is made available from the manufacturer for some reason.

Ignoring the cobalt, it is a modification of M2 to increase carbon/vanadium to increase maximum hardness and wear resistance. However if you actually want that then you would just get M4 which does the same thing, just doesn't have the Cobalt.

While I can appreciate Spyderco looking at new steels, I think it is unfortunate the way they are being presented. It used to be that Spyderco would present data when they used new steels; q-fog, catra, HRC ranges, and make an actual argument that the steel actually does something productive. However now it just looks like as a steel gets a name then it gets a knife, it is just leveraging branding.

Now this is a sensible way to make money sure, but it used to be Spyderco was more than that.

Yes I recall some of the earlier sprint runs/mule releases. They generally all at least had a non generic desprecption of the steel and what it originally was designes to achieve.

Like you said, now it just seems as a steel gets popularity in one area it then gets hyped up for how it would work in a knife steel.

One thing that did shock me on Spydercos forum was that 52100 got picked over many high carbide steels/hyped steels for a UKPK sprint. A bit of hope Still. Ut but that was a theoretical poll.

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question, than a fool can learn from a wise answer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2015 05:28PM by StanLee.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 15, 2015 02:38PM
HAP40 seems to be the current "steel of the hour." makes a dandy drill bit or end-mill or broach. here is a sample of the current ads
Many years of experiments led to the decision to use a powder metallurgy steel, HAP40 from Hitachi. HAP40 is fine-grained enough to sharpen very well and rates 64 - 68 on the Rockwell Hardness Test (HRC) - even harder than the traditional carbon steels used for knives. Contrary to other HSS steels, it can be relatively easily sharpened on normal waterstones, if not quite as easily as traditional steels. Knives from this steel keep their sharpness 3 to 5 times longer than traditional knives. HAP40 is extremely tough, and so not as likely to chip along the edge as the steel used in traditional knives. The knives are manufactured in three layers, HAP40 is used only in the "Hagane" or middle layer, that becomes the cutting edge. The use of the stainless steel grade SUS405 for the "Jigane", or the two outside laminates, solves the rust problem elegantly. All knives illustrated on this page are made of three-laminate steel. Please: Do not put these knives into the dishwasher!
After use, wash off and dry - stainless steel can rust if left wet for long periods.
Never cut deep-frozen meat or vegetables!
These knives are intended for cutting vegetable and meat. They are not designed to cut bones in meat, poultry, or fish!
With the knives made with smoked Magnolia wood grips, illustrated below, the blades are made of industrially produced laminated blade blanks.
[www.fine-tools.com]
reads like the standard "New Steel" write up. remove HAP40 and insert Vanadis30 or CPM Rex45 and you have the new steel write up from last winter.
scott
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 15, 2015 03:23PM
The parts I find interesting are :

-toughness/chip resistance, compared to what?

-easy to grind compared to other HSS ?
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 15, 2015 08:36PM
Why would the steel being "fine-grained enough" influence it's ability to "sharpen very well"? What does "sharpen very well" even mean? That could be grindability, resistance to burr formation, any number of things. But nothing, as Cliff noted, is even used as a comparative benchmark. I'm sure people will rave about it's cutting ability and edge retention.

Does anyone have a guess on when (or if) the steel hype and marketing will stop? It seems to me that as long as people keep buying knives because of the "new steel" that makers will probably keep doing it. If the steels don't even need to be ideal for knives then they sure have a lot of possibilities.

Now admittedly I did buy into the hype when I was first getting into knives seriously, but after a while I started to realize that the majority of people who made claims about steel performance weren't really citing anything specific, or just had poorly designed testing that showed nothing, making me look for some meaningful data. Even a simple man like myself could understand that Cliff's statements about edge angle, finish, and thickness being more important than exact steel type made MUCH more sense than a steel vs. steel debate. Not to mention Cliff had real data and evidence to support what he was saying.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2015 08:40PM by Ryan Nafe.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 15, 2015 08:56PM
The problem is compared to what? HAP40 isn't going to have an austenite grain significantly finer than M4.

But you asked the critical question, what do they mean? That is the problem with marketing claims. They are intentionally often so vague they can't be held accountable as there is no real understanding of what they are really saying.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 23, 2015 02:04AM
Are there really that many people out there that don't question things like this?
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 23, 2015 02:35AM
Yes, hence why marketing is based on bias not hard data.

Kevin Cashen spoke at this at length about how at times he would talk to people about steels, discuss in depth a point which was justified based on actual science. Often times the response he would get would be "Well ..." and then they would cite how someone else said/claimed the opposite. He began to realize that to a lot of people there was no difference in the claim. The fact that he could justify what he said didn't matter. What most people saw were two people telling stories and so they listened to the story that they liked the most. That is how a lot of people judge what is true.

Now that sounds pretty silly, but start reading around. On Spyderco's form I can make a fairly detailed post referencing actual metallurgy and it is very frequent to have someone response "but" and then note that they heard someone make a claim with no evidence at all, they just say it. Again it sounds ridiculous as anyone can say anything, why would that make you believe it. But for a lot of people demanding evidence/justification simply isn't done. One of the reasons was as Feynman used to note, people just don't want to do the work that is required to know. But even more common is the fact that most people want to believe something more than they want to know the truth of a thing.

Beyond that, it gets even crazier as a lot of people will take this to the extent that they will just ignore obvious evidence :

- [www.cliffstamp.com]

How can you dispute AEB-L has chromium carbides, there are pictures of them? There are detailed calculations showing the volume. It is noted in peer reviewed papers. How can you possibly make some of conspiracy about the most minor things. Who knows, some people mix single malt scotch with Pepsi and put ketchup on month old dry aged steak which was requested to be cooked well done.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 23, 2015 12:49PM
Quote
CliffStamp

Ignoring the cobalt, it is a modification of M2 to increase carbon/vanadium to increase maximum hardness and wear resistance. However if you actually want that then you would just get M4 which does the same thing, just doesn't have the Cobalt.

If I recall correctly, that was actually the primary motivation for selecting HAP40 as one of the steels. As the Japanese manufactured patterns can only be made with Japanese steel, HAP40 was essentially a way to get an M4 Delica/Endura/Stretch.

Also, sorry for the partial derailment of this thread, but Cliff, what do you know about SG-2? It's the other Japanese steel they'll be using for sprint runs of the Japanese models this year and I'm not that familiar with it.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 23, 2015 02:13PM
SG-2 is SGPS, it is a PM steel with a slightly lower vanadium content than S30V but similar carbon so it has higher maximum hardness. This is why SGPS/SG-2 is normally ran at 61/62 while S30V is 59/60.

I have used it in a few knives. It is nice for people who are willing to work something a bit more difficult than VG-10 but don't want to jump up to S30V. The higher hardness and lower carbide volume raises the apex stability and strength/toughness.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 23, 2015 08:24PM
Quote
CliffStamp
SG-2 is SGPS, it is a PM steel with a slightly lower vanadium content than S30V but similar carbon so it has higher maximum hardness. This is why SGPS/SG-2 is normally ran at 61/62 while S30V is 59/60.

I have used it in a few knives. It is nice for people who are willing to work something a bit more difficult than VG-10 but don't want to jump up to S30V. The higher hardness and lower carbide volume raises the apex stability and strength/toughness.

Thanks for the information. It's too bad I couldn't convince everyone that a White #1 sprint run was a good idea...
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 23, 2015 08:34PM
On Spyderco's forum? Not likely.

I do wonder how much of Spyderco's position on steels was influenced by the CATRA tester they bought/own. High carbide steels do very well there and when Sal talks about steels and edge retention he does reference that heavily. It is unfortunate that the understanding of what that actually measures isn't well understood.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 23, 2015 08:53PM
Quote
CliffStamp
On Spyderco's forum? Not likely.

I do wonder how much of Spyderco's position on steels was influenced by the CATRA tester they bought/own. High carbide steels do very well there and when Sal talks about steels and edge retention he does reference that heavily. It is unfortunate that the understanding of what that actually measures isn't well understood.

While that's true, I would have thought the strong sales success and forum opinion on the Super Blue sprint runs would at least put some weight on the scale for higher apex stability steels. While Spyderco may not do that much in that vein, they still do more (as in any) than any other production folder maker. It even looks like the UKPK sprint might end up being in 52100, I don't see any other production knife makers trying *that*.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 24, 2015 07:14PM
They liked super blue because it's Japanese, it's called Super Blue, it has tungsten, and is not stainless. It has nothing to do with high edge stability.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 24, 2015 08:28PM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
They liked super blue because it's Japanese, it's called Super Blue, it has tungsten, and is not stainless. It has nothing to do with high edge stability.

Yes, but the many positive comments on the ease of sharpening and ease of attaining high-push cutting sharpness on the forums, as well as the general high level of positive comments about the steel on their forum would seem to indicate an appetite for a few more steels in that vein. We will see the reception 52100 gets if it ends up being used for the UKPK.
Eli
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 25, 2015 05:49AM
The Japanese seem to avoid tool steels in their kitchen knives. The exceptions to my knowledge are Carbonext (a mystery steel) and HAP40, which is pushed hard by CKTG and is available cheaper on some German sites. I suspect both are produced for export. I like my Carbonext 270mm gyoto. It can nearly be touched up using natural stones. Its geometry and balance are well done. Corrosion resistance near stainless. Who cares what the steel is if the rest is near optimal? Maybe the HAP40 knives are good as well, but I have not seen a 270mm version. I suspect they are ground a little thick. (The Spyderco forum asked for another non-boring Japanese steel, and HAP40 was corrosion resistant enough and M4-like enough that it was ordered.)

Unlike these two steels Aogami Super actually is marketed (pages 4/5) towards use in the kitchen. I had prior experience with a Hiromoto petty and liked that very much. Also I knew it responds reasonably to natural stones. So I got the Stretch when it came out. (Ahem, actually several of them, but this is the genius of Sal - namely getting wealthy.) The Stretch was ground much thicker than the Hiromoto, which was and is disappointing. While I have not matched the Hiromoto's thinness I have reduced it greatly. I live in a dry climate, but wearing makes AS slightly rusty and dull over time. I get the feeling it is not a great EDC steel for most people (and believe Shirogami would have been worse). As has been noted elsewhere, the clad AS is fragile (with respect to bending and probably chipping). Still, I like it for nostalgic reasons. But also for one specific application: I camp every year around Mendocino and dive for Abalone. These snails are sandy and slimy. I have tried most of my kitchen knives to clean and slice them, with dubious results (dulling VG10 and Carbonext, also rusting both). I did not expect this due to the small size, but the Stretch was great: fantastic grip, not much rusting due to the cladding, and stayed sharp through the job. Thin sashimi slices at the end with no problem. Maybe the ZDP-189 Stretch would have stayed sharp as well, but due to lack of cladding I believe it would have rusted. Seems like I found a purpose! (Unfortunately abalone have not spawned much since the 80s, so I may have to find another one day.)
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 26, 2015 12:48AM
Quote
Steel_Drake

Yes, but the many positive comments on the ease of sharpening and ease of attaining high-push cutting sharpness on the forums, as well as the general high level of positive comments about the steel on their forum would seem to indicate an appetite for a few more steels in that vein. We will see the reception 52100 gets if it ends up being used for the UKPK.

Perhaps you're right, but I don't really remember a lot of specific references or comparisons being made on the Spyderco forum when I was over there. Most of what I remember was very general amd vague. Along the lines of "it takes a razor edge", "it's easy to sharpen", "gets very sharp" etc. Now this might indicate a general approval of the steel, but to me it seems that more information is needed. I say this because of most members' lack of comparisons, performance benchmarks, or measurments to a somewhat accurate degree. For instance, if someone said something like "it takes a razor edge" in reference to Super Blue, couldn't I say the exact same thing about the steel in my Buck 119 since I can get it to shave above my skin?

I can make the knife do that because the steel is (at least in terms of what I'm able to do with it) properly hardened, and the edge bevel is around 12.5 degrees per side, so that it's very easy for me to consistently hit the apex when I'm applying a micro bevel. To me, their generalizations and the fact that they seem to mostly rave about high carbide steels like S110V being superior would indicate that they may not be concerned with things like grindability, edge stability, or resistance to burr formation because they rarely notnote any of those things in their posts. But they always talk about steel type like they're able to tell a significant difference based on no measurements or calculations.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 26, 2015 01:07AM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
.... But they always talk about steel type like they're able to tell a significant difference based on no measurements or calculations.

There is a very simple solution, just ask people "How do you know that?" and then look at what they claim and see if it provides reasonable justification. This is a very simple step but it cuts through the vast majority of arguments as it exposes that in most cases people have no justification at all.

The next step is to look at "what else" scenarios. If what they are claiming is true then what else would also be true? If these things are not true then the original claim has to be false. This is one of the core methods of scientific investigation. However it is rare to even get to that stage because the first approach usually is enough on its own.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 26, 2015 05:15AM
Cliff, those are good points. I am not in college (tried, not for me) but I have been trying to learn about things like logical fallacies, ethics, morals, scientific method, and similar things. Do you know of any online resources or books that I could read to learn some of these things? I have absolutely no problem comprehending anything I put my mind to, but my low processing speed makes it harder for me to engage in productive debates or arguments with people in real time. But the more I learn and store away, the easier it is for me to think reflexively and I start to catch up to most people's pace. Any links or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 26, 2015 05:43AM
Quote
CliffStamp
One of the reasons was as Feynman used to note, people just don't want to do the work that is required to know. But even more common is the fact that most people want to believe something more than they want to know the truth of a thing.

Beyond that, it gets even crazier as a lot of people will take this to the extent that they will just ignore obvious evidence :

- [www.cliffstamp.com]

If this is true, I'm a little scared.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 26, 2015 02:09PM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Perhaps you're right, but I don't really remember a lot of specific references or comparisons being made on the Spyderco forum when I was over there. Most of what I remember was very general amd vague. Along the lines of "it takes a razor edge", "it's easy to sharpen", "gets very sharp" etc. Now this might indicate a general approval of the steel, but to me it seems that more information is needed. I say this because of most members' lack of comparisons, performance benchmarks, or measurments to a somewhat accurate degree. For instance, if someone said something like "it takes a razor edge" in reference to Super Blue, couldn't I say the exact same thing about the steel in my Buck 119 since I can get it to shave above my skin?

I can make the knife do that because the steel is (at least in terms of what I'm able to do with it) properly hardened, and the edge bevel is around 12.5 degrees per side, so that it's very easy for me to consistently hit the apex when I'm applying a micro bevel. To me, their generalizations and the fact that they seem to mostly rave about high carbide steels like S110V being superior would indicate that they may not be concerned with things like grindability, edge stability, or resistance to burr formation because they rarely notnote any of those things in their posts. But they always talk about steel type like they're able to tell a significant difference based on no measurements or calculations.

These are certainly all very good points, though I will say that my own experience does appear to indicate that it is easier to achieve a high level of push cutting sharpness with Super Blue than with most other steels used in Spyderco knives. That actually leads me to wonder why that is

My own experience with steels like Super Blue and 52100 as compared to other steels including VG-10, 8cr13mov, S30V, and 154CM is that the Super Blue and 52100 are much more forgiving to sharpen to high levels of push-cutting sharpness. By forgiving I mean I can pay much less careful attention to minimizing pressure on the stones, and can leave the edge-bevel at a coarser finish prior to micro-beveling with a very fine finish, while achieving similar levels of push-cutting sharpness that would require much more care towards pressure on the stone and finishing the edge bevel to a much finer polish on other steels.

I don't really understand *why* this is the case precisely, I would think the greater resistance to carbide tear out at the apex would be the major part of the answer but I'm not really sure about that. All I do know is that subjectively it appears much easier from both a skill and time perspective to get high levels of push-cutting sharpness from steels like Super Blue and 52100, and I'd just assumed that ease of sharpening to high levels of push-cutting sharpness is what was meant by comments about it being easy to sharpen and easy to get to a "razor edge" on the Spyderco forum had been referencing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2015 02:10PM by Steel_Drake.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 26, 2015 03:07PM
Ryan,

Feynman has very nice video's on what is science and how you know through science, lots of videos on YT.

The best way to learn something is to simply discuss it with someone, don't worry about bring right as much as just asking the question which are raised as you think. Ideally do it with someone that you can talk freely without being self-conscious as the more you filter yourself the slower you will learn.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 26, 2015 03:42PM
Thanks Cliff, I'll give those videos a look.

Steel Drake, just to clarify, I was not saying that Super Blue does not have the properties that you describe, I'm just saying that I haven't seen a lot of specific data or information from the folks on the Spyderco forum, but I also haven't been actively asking questions either.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 26, 2015 08:20PM
some comments on the ad: [www.fine-tools.com]

After use, wash off and dry - stainless steel can rust if left wet for long periods. HAP40 is not stainless, but i guess will rust.

Never cut deep-frozen meat or vegetables!
These knives are intended for cutting vegetable and meat. They are not designed to cut bones in meat, poultry, or fish!

what fun is this? I make the same warnings for the knives i make of thin, high hardness O1 and 1.2519.

blades are made of industrially produced laminated blade blanks.
I wonder if Hitachi is having a hard time selling this steel to toolmakers and is trying to move old stock.

an aside, everyone knows single malt Scotch goes best with Mountain Dew

scott
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 27, 2015 12:19AM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Thanks Cliff, I'll give those videos a look.

Steel Drake, just to clarify, I was not saying that Super Blue does not have the properties that you describe, I'm just saying that I haven't seen a lot of specific data or information from the folks on the Spyderco forum, but I also haven't been actively asking questions either.

Ryan,

I've seen it mentioned a fair few times when steels get discussed over there, though not so much recently, to be honest.


Quote
oldsailorsknives
These knives are intended for cutting vegetable and meat. They are not designed to cut bones in meat, poultry, or fish![/i
what fun is this? I make the same warnings for the knives i make of thin, high hardness O1 and 1.2519.

To be fair, typical Japanese kitchen knives would be relatively thin and high hardness, at least by comparison to typical Western kitchen knives, and thus probably should carry similar warnings.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 27, 2015 03:42AM
Quote
Ryan Nafe

If this is true, I'm a little scared.

In general, it isn't uncommon for that kind of response :

- [www.spyderco.com]

Note that I argued based on evidence, cited multiple sources, suggested very simple experiments which could be done, pointed out that the justification being used would be rejected by the same people if I tried to apply it. And what was the result - ad hominem attacks at the end when the irrationality was clearly noted.

I am curious if this is a general reaction or do discussion forums tend to attract such people.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 27, 2015 01:14PM
Quote
CliffStamp
I am curious if this is a general reaction or do discussion forums tend to attract such people.

I've been wondering exactly this for a while now, do you think there's any way to answer the question? By the way, I get lighters wet every once in a while, even fully submerging them, and they all work fine once the water has evaporated..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2015 02:20PM by Ryan Nafe.
Re: HAP40 Endura 4?
March 27, 2015 02:51PM
It is an interesting question. Why people will not accept evidence is well known, it is simply a form of bias (confirmation bias), we want a particular conclusion to be true so we seek out things to justify it and ignore things which show it is false.

Imagine if I said this argument :

I had a Spyderco lock fail on me once, I have never had a Benchmade lock fail, therefore it is true that Benchmade locks are not a risk for failure but Spyderco's are.

Would this argument be accepted on Spyderco's forum? No. But that is the exact argument being used against lighters to promote ferrocerium rods. Why is that argument used in one case but considered invalid in another? It is special pleading, just a specific case of confirmation bias.

It is an interesting question if forums tend to promote that. I don't think it is restricted to forums though, I think any large group would tend to be like that when they form because of a particular view that they all share. The sharing of that viewpoint is likely to be a strong enough driver to distort evidential arguments.