Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

$5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me

Posted by Erik 
This forum is currently read only. You can not log in or make any changes. This is a temporary situation.
$5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 01:02AM
Hello,

I bought some time ago a 6 inch Norton Crystolon from Home Depot because at the time I didn't feel like boiling out all the impurities from my extremely clogged India stone, so I was going to use this 'Economy' stone to sharpen my machetes.

Upon sharpening I discovered that this stone produces a HUGE slurry of dislodged abrasive, very much like a King waterstone, and I have to say that I really hate slurries because with the way I sharpen, the slurry dulls away my edge at the very same time I'm trying to actually sharpen my knife. I'm wondering: am I simply sharpening incorrectly or are these Crystolon stones only to be used for shaping the edge? I don't deliberately microbevel, so when I sharpen I'm just trying to make one uniform plane from apex to primary bevel. So for me, shaping the edge ends up being the same thing as working the apex.

I'm used to using an India stone, Arkansas, ceramic and diamond to sharpen hitherto. A benefit of slurries is, I believe, that fresh abrasive is being revealed so cutting speed increases, but with the slurry whats the point? Even a heavily worn India stone or a Fine DMT can remove a lot of metal quickly and there's no slurry to combat.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 01:14AM
My Norton Economy behaves the exact same way, aside from the faster cutting, you get a finer finish due to the action of the slurry.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 01:16AM
Quote
Erik
I'm wondering: am I simply sharpening incorrectly or are these Crystolon stones only to be used for shaping the edge? .

They appear to be very inconsistent. The one I have has a very high bond strength and in order to see significant abrasive breakdown/release I need to do something like use a chisel and press hard to generate very high pressure (100+ psi). However if you check some threads you will find that other people have them and they can break down really fast under much lower pressure. It may be because these are the Economy line that the consistency is just really low. If you have one which breaks down fast then just use the stone where it will do well :

-cutting very high carbide steels like 10V
-conditioning and flattening other stones

Trying to set the apex with a stone that produces a heavy slurry is going to be an exercise in frustration.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 01:18AM
"you get a finer finish due to the action of the slurry"

Do you mean "finish" to be the appearance of the edge or how refined the apex is in its sharpness?

The slurry totally dulls my edge. Am I screwing up somewhere?
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 01:22AM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
Erik
I'm wondering: am I simply sharpening incorrectly or are these Crystolon stones only to be used for shaping the edge? .


-conditioning and flattening other stones

Trying to set the apex with a stone that produces a heavy slurry is going to be an exercise in frustration.

Yes, it is extremely frustrating!

Interestingly, I sharpened both Super Blue and ZDP-189 on the stone to check the action of the slurry. The Super Blue was almost immediately dulled by the slurry whereas the ZDP-189 actually resisted it and in some cases, if I wiped off the slurry, it would regain sharpness even though some of the slurry inevitably was left over and, as the passes increased, it grew back to its initial size and then the ZDP-189 retreated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2015 01:22AM by Erik.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 05:20AM
There's a few threads on this forum talking about this stone, along with several dicussing the effect of slurries.
Can I ask are you using the stone dry or with a lubricant? If so, what kind? And do both sides of the stone produce a slurry, or just one?
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 05:33PM
I always use lubricant of some kind when sharpening. In this case I was using Norton's own mineral oil.

I did not use the 'coarse' side as it was too coarse for what I was doing at the moment. The 'fine' side readily produced a massive slurry just from the weight of my machete (30+ inch Imacasa) and a little pressure.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 07:04PM
Interesting.
Can I ask also the procedure that you use for sharpening? Most of the suggestions I am thinking of are different than how you have described already, I would just like a more detailed description, if you could.
Thank you!
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 11:20PM
I don't microbevel, so my edge, the secondary bevel, is just one straight angle from the apex to where it begins at the end of the primary bevel.

I just make passes on a stone at the angle I think I want and grind accordingly until the edge is uniform. I sweep the edge across the stone and try to make sure that the edge is as parallel as possible with the surface of the stone so that the apex is ground as thin as possible. I've stopped doing passes away from myself, because its hard to really tell for sure where the edge is at since you can't see it, and instead I now switch the knife to over to my left hand and pass towards myself from each side so I can always watch the edge to make sure it remains parallel with the stone's surface. I keep doing this until I feel that I can't get the apex any sharper, which usually isn't very long, assuming I'm not grinding out a lower angle for the edge.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 20, 2015 11:48PM
Why no micro-bevel?
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 21, 2015 12:10AM
With all the old slurry removed and the stone cleaned it quickly built a (new) slurry when working only a hard steel like Super Blue or ZDP-189?
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 21, 2015 01:00AM
Quote
CliffStamp
Why no micro-bevel?

I'm afraid. I mean, I'm already roughly estimating the angle of the edge when sharpening and I can at least see the results of what happens. With the micro-bevel, I can't see clearly what's going on and I assume that since we're dealing with a much smaller surface area when doing micro-bevels, the angle estimates need to be that much more exact for the micro-bevel to be effective, and I'm really not sure how to measure my angles with certainty
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 21, 2015 01:03AM
Quote
Mr.Wizard
With all the old slurry removed and the stone cleaned it quickly built a (new) slurry when working only a hard steel like Super Blue or ZDP-189?

Yes. Whatever is used to bond the abrasive together must be really weak.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 21, 2015 02:42AM
Erik-
Thank you for the description.
I have a few more questions now. First, are you sharpening to a burr? Also, how are you determining the sharpness when you stop sharpening? What are you noticing that's different between sharpening with a slurry vs. without one (ie shaving, push-cutting, slicing cross grained on paper)? Have you tried flushing the stone just before you stop sharpening, and doing a few alternating passes per side?
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 21, 2015 02:45AM
Quote
Erik
... the angle estimates need to be that much more exact for the micro-bevel to be effective

Not really, once the edge is set the apex is set with a micro-bevel almost instantly. It in fact severely reduces the need for angle consistency.
me2
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
September 24, 2015 01:58PM
It appears to be a matter of pressure. I didn't get any slurry even when rebeveling knives. However, when regrinding a knife recently by putting the stone on the table, and pressing with both hands, I got lots of slurry. I normally use the stone in one hand and the knife in the other, so the pressure is much lower.

Oh, and microbeveling is much easier and faster. Like Cliff said, you're removing such a tiny amount of metal, you don't really need to be very precise. Any slop in angle is corrected in the next couple of passes. I would go so far as to say the notion that good angle control is needed is vastly over stated, with the exception being you do need it for pretty bevels. If that's not a concern, its a worry that inhibits many sharpeners from progressing. Going as fast as I do sometimes, and using both hands, there just isn't any way I have very precise angle control, yet I can get very sharp edges off the Norton Economy stone. Yes, I do use my sharpening blocks, but that's because I want them to look better and more even than I can manage without the blocks.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
October 09, 2015 03:39AM
Quote
me2

Oh, and microbeveling is much easier and faster. Like Cliff said, you're removing such a tiny amount of metal, you don't really need to be very precise.

So, about how many passes should I do for a microbevel? I assume that depends on the abrasive and steel.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
October 09, 2015 03:55AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Erik-
Thank you for the description.
I have a few more questions now. First, are you sharpening to a burr? Also, how are you determining the sharpness when you stop sharpening? What are you noticing that's different between sharpening with a slurry vs. without one (ie shaving, push-cutting, slicing cross grained on paper)? Have you tried flushing the stone just before you stop sharpening, and doing a few alternating passes per side?

I try to minimize a burr as much as possible.

To determine sharpness, I feel the edge and then gauge how easily it slices newsprint and shaves hair. I'm a bit worried about the feel test as I've had Super Blue on some occasions feel less sharp than ZDP-189 but it sliced newsprint and shaved better, which was strange. The Super Blue was 'apexed' on medium ceramic and the ZDP-189 on a DMT extra-fine plate.

The slurries I've experienced thus far have come from the 6000 King waterstone and this Norton economy stone. I frankly despise the King waterstone because of its friability. I've tried edge-trailing passes and flushed the surface with water after about 5 PPS. With 14c28n I saw a noticable increase in sharpness over a "surgical black" Arkansas, I think, with the edge-trail and flush, and ZDP-189 was still totally dulled with the edge-trailing passes.

So with a slurry, I figured that its nigh impossible for a mediocre sharpener to actually get a blade sharp, which is why I so enjoy cermic, diamond, india and arkansas stones. I still don't understand the value of a slurry, and indeed I am still new to the knife world so there is still much I do not understand. Perhaps slurry is good for removing burrs entirely so as to get as clean of an edge as possible for apexing?

The knife world is particularly vexing because there are so many conflicting opinions and no central authority by which they can be gauged.
Re: $5 Norton Crystolon stone's massive slurry is confusing me
October 09, 2015 05:39AM
Erik-
Double check the flatness of your stones that you are having issues with, that will make a huge difference, with a slurry, unless you are doing finishing passes, shouldn't cause that big of an issue. Most of the stones you like are almost always very flat, their being hard and not slurry formings is good for finishing, but not as important as them being flat as possible.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter