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Folders and pivot strength

Posted by Chum 
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Folders and pivot strength
December 18, 2015 08:46PM
I have been dealing with a lot of packing materials this last week. Primarily cardboard, zipties, nylon straps and plastic straps that look like this...



I have been using my Spyderco Delica Clipit, exclusively, for all my cutting.

The Delica has NOT failed, however... it has felt like it was going to fail on several occasions, each time at the pivot. The most noticeable times the Delica "felt" like it might fail was when I cut the plastic strapping off of bundled shipping blankets. These plastic straps have been sunk in deep and have been very tight. In order to even make a cut I had to work the tip underneath the strap and pull the cut through the plastic straps. This proved difficult at times. There was so little wiggle room that I was at risk of cutting into the shipping blankets. This process stressed the pivot.

It "feels" as though it wouldn't take much effort to break the Delica at the pivot. It hasn't happened though. I had been contemplating getting a new Spyderco, but this experience has pushed me towards CS, once again. I have stressed the pivot on my CS Medium Espada and CS Lawman much harder than I did my Spyderco. It never felt like the pivot was in danger with a CS knife.

This is an observation which makes me question the purpose of an EDC folder such as a Delica. I would not call cutting some plastic strapping "hard use." Medium use perhaps? If I had to do this kind of cutting regularly I don't believe the Delica would last very long.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 18, 2015 09:05PM
Is this one with nested steel liners? How tight was the pivot? Is the pivot loose after, or the knife action any worse for wear?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 18, 2015 09:11PM
Chum, what are you thinking is the mode of failure? The knife separates laterally, or the lock breaks?
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 19, 2015 03:23AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Is this one with nested steel liners? How tight was the pivot? Is the pivot loose after, or the knife action any worse for wear?

No, this is an old full frn, no liners, model.

There is a little bit of up-down, as well as side-to-side, play. It feels like there is more side-to-side play than earlier, but if there is it is so small that I can't be sure.



Quote
CliffStamp
what are you thinking is the mode of failure? The knife separates laterally, or the lock breaks?

It feels like the blade is going to twist out of the pivot and either break the handle at the pivot, or it will disengage the lock. I know I was worried the lock would disengage, because I could suddenly feel more slop in the blade. Once I finished the cuts the knife felt normal (as I said above there may be a little more side to side play, but it is hard to tell for sure.)

The knife did not fail. It just became a little more loose at the pivot when trying to twist the blade into the cut. I have never felt any concern about applying a lot of downward force with the Delica. It is the torquing of the pivot that feels like a weak point.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 19, 2015 01:45PM
I have felt the same chum, I have a 20 plus year old full frn endura and I have often felt like the handle could just twist off the blade at the pivot.

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Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 19, 2015 03:57PM
@OP

I have the same experience with my Endura, I think it's partially because the Endura/Delica tang is rather small. That's the main reason why I keep going back to the Griptilian: it has a robust tang and is generally stronger than the Endura.
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 19, 2015 04:21PM
Mark, what have you been carrying lately? Still the Opinel and SAK?

Eric, are there any tasks that you think are too harsh for the Griptilian?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 20, 2015 01:50AM
Chum-
I used to own a few original Benchmade Eclipse/Ascent/Pika witb just the FRN or Zytel handles, and it used to do a similar thing, especially if I had the action tuned for quick opening. It wouldn't do it as much if I tightened the pivot before doing jobs like that, with the lateral forces applied. Never hurt the knife, just the action would be a little looser after use, but I would just tighten the pivot a little and no issue. I have found the Pika II with the nested liners (titanium or steel) and the newer Spyderco's, also with the nested liners, seem more stiff with lateral strain.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 20, 2015 02:20AM
Chum, I actually haven't been paying any attention to what I carry. as a frightening matter of fact, weeks have gone by with out me carrying anything. My gec was in my jeans for so long without use it actually got rusty.
Fear not friends, for not all is lost I have an incredible white #1 yanigiba that I have been having an affair with.

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 20, 2015 02:26AM
Ok Mark, tell us about the white #1 yanigiba.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2015 02:27AM by curmudgeon.
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 20, 2015 05:22AM
Quote
Chum

Eric, are there any tasks that you think are too harsh for the Griptilian?

I wish the Axis-lock's bar did not rest on the very edge of the blade tang: because of this it is possible to disengage the lock with extreme quick torques, as with CS's recent videos.

The Grip doesn't cut through material as cleanly as an Endura because of the thicker blade and lack of FF grind. However, for that reason the Griptilian's blade is stronger and tougher as there's more steel to absorb abuse.
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 20, 2015 04:51PM
Quote
curmudgeon
Ok Mark, tell us about the white #1 yanigiba.

Yes, do tell Mark.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 21, 2015 01:18AM
I will. I am off next week and I will get a write up done

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 21, 2015 01:43AM
I have a couple of new style Enduras. I never noticed a lack of lateral strength at the pivot, probably because I rarely use them in a manner that subjects then to lateral loads. Out of curiosity, I put side pressure on the pivots by hand (blade locked open). I was amazed at how much they would flex. Even with liners, the Spyderco Endura and Delica folders don't offer much lateral integrity. I took a Cold Steel Voyager (large) and did the same thing to it. I could not detect any flex. Interesting.
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 21, 2015 01:58AM
Quote
curmudgeon
I have a couple of new style Enduras. I never noticed a lack of lateral strength at the pivot, probably because I rarely use them in a manner that subjects then to lateral loads. Out of curiosity, I put side pressure on the pivots by hand (blade locked open). I was amazed at how much they would flex. Even with liners, the Spyderco Endura and Delica folders don't offer much lateral integrity. I took a Cold Steel Voyager (large) and did the same thing to it. I could not detect any flex. Interesting.

Does this change your view on what you might edc?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 21, 2015 09:26PM
Chum.
It well might change what I edc. I will note that I have not run into that situation before, so it hasn't been an issue. If I thought that I would have to cut something that caused the pivot to flex, I would definitely carry for something else. I guess I will have to relegate the Spyderco Endura and Delica to light duty status.
Eee
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 24, 2015 10:10PM
I've just had a look through my knife drawer wiggling pivots. I don't have a Delica, but do have an Atlantic Salt and a Pacific Salt. You can feel the flex in the FRN and the pivot. Ironically there is less flex in the FRN UKPKs, which does make me wonder if the riveted pivot is part of the issue. There must have been a lots of Salts, Delicas and Enduras sold over the years and I would suggest they are in the price range where they actually get used. There aren't many examples of failures in internet world. This could mean that people don't over stress them because they can feel the flex or it just mean that failures are unlikely.
Re: Folders and pivot strength
December 25, 2015 04:44AM
Now that you mention it, I have had the pivot feel a bit weak on the Spyderco Delica before when cutting real heavy material. It is a little disconcerting.

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Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 21, 2016 07:48PM
On the one hand, the FRN is pretty flexible, so it stands to reason that it would flex... Also, it would have to flex a lot for a back lock to disengage. One thing that Spyderco had a tendency to do was NOT overbuild. You could consider it an early warning system, as the flex would let you know you were doing something less than bright. Is that a bad thing? Really, the knife is plenty strong for proper use.

On the other, I am personally not a big fan of many Spydies because of the small blade cross section at the pivot point. In my case, the Endura and Police were a big turnoff.

It reminds me of primary and secondary stability in a canoe. A stable canoe would have little stability once it tipped partway, while a tippy one was more difficult to actually roll completely. Would you want a knife that seemed like there was no problem until it suddenly gave way?

What I ask of a knife is that it hold together long enough for me to realize that I am doing something stupid, though with the caveat that I will have to bring a knife suitable for the range of work...
Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 21, 2016 08:30PM
I recently bought a Pacific Salt (yellow handle). It is not nearly as flexible as the Enduras even though they are roughly the same size. I find that interesting since the Pacific Salt does not have liners and the Enduras do. I wonder if the same is true for the black Pacific Salt. It might make a difference in that the Salt I have has a particularly well fitted lock. Much tighter than most FRN Spydercos. Did I just get lucky with the Pacific Salt?
Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 22, 2016 09:11AM
Quote
Any Cal.
You could consider it an early warning system, as the flex would let you know you were doing something less than bright. Is that a bad thing? Really, the knife is plenty strong for proper use.

Can you please define "proper use?"




Quote
curmudgeon
I recently bought a Pacific Salt (yellow handle). It is not nearly as flexible as the Enduras even though they are roughly the same size. I find that interesting since the Pacific Salt does not have liners and the Enduras do. I wonder if the same is true for the black Pacific Salt. It might make a difference in that the Salt I have has a particularly well fitted lock. Much tighter than most FRN Spydercos. Did I just get lucky with the Pacific Salt?

Interesting observation curmudgeon. Does the Pacific Salt have more mass around the pivot than the Eundura?


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 22, 2016 06:46PM
Chum,
The blade looks very similar. I didn't measure it. The PS uses the old style Endura FRN handle. I doubt it or the blade shape has changed, but it could have.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2016 11:26PM by curmudgeon.
Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 22, 2016 09:12PM
IMO, proper use means loading the knife in the direction of the edge. Basically, pushing it down w/ little lateral force.

The only time the lock is loaded is when the blade is levered against the tip, or pushed down when the blade is stuck. The only time the scales are loaded is when prying or sideloading the blade/edge. If there is a fear of the scales flexing and disengaging the lock, then both mechanisms are at play, which is a sign of operator error, IMO.

I have tested several lock designs, but one of the biggest things that it taught me was that loading the lock always involved an improper or uneducated use of the knife. Just as cutting away from yourself or keeping fingers out of the path of the blade, an educated user will not heavily load a knife's lock, or put body parts in a dangerous path if they do.

A lightly built knife is typically designed for an advanced or light duty user, so proper use would imply understanding the general scope of use and force the knife was designed for, and to work within them.

A defective knife would be one that flexed the spine towards the user in an edge loaded configuration, under typical cutting forces.
Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 23, 2016 12:49AM
Any Cal...

There are times when you will want to pry, stab, drill, hammer or scrape with a knife. I would contest that most knife makers don't test for these uses, or at least they don't test for these uses thoroughly. One of the things people on this forum do is test the limits of knives. If everyone were to simply say "that isn't proper use" we wouldn't know what these knives are capable of doing.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 23, 2016 03:55AM
Quote
Chum
Any Cal...

There are times when you will want to pry, stab, drill, hammer or scrape with a knife. I would contest that most knife makers don't test for these uses, or at least they don't test for these uses thoroughly. One of the things people on this forum do is test the limits of knives. If everyone were to simply say "that isn't proper use" we wouldn't know what these knives are capable of doing.

You are right, most makers won't test for these uses. This basically proves my point that those things are generally outside the intended scope of the knife, and indicative of user error. If the knife was designed for those things, then it would function poorly at cutting, which is the primary purpose. Testing the limits is excellent, but if a person blames a tool when it doesn't function far beyond it's design parameters, it indicates a lack of knowledge.

I own a knife that was actually designed for many abusive tasks, but it is not less than 3oz, $65, or much of a cutter. I don't blame it for any of its flaws, as they weren't the primary focus of the design. Does that mean I haven't used it enough to know its limits, or that I have learned enough to work with the tool, rather than against it?
Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 23, 2016 05:17AM
Quote
Any Cal.
You are right, most makers won't test for these uses. This basically proves my point that those things are generally outside the intended scope of the knife, and indicative of user error.

No, this doesn't prove anything. Knife makers are trying to make a profit. I would guess that few knives get tested for anything other than initial sharpness and how smooth they open and close. The commonly accepted sign that a knife is "built like a tank" is typically how thick the blade is. The commonly accepted sign of how well a knife cuts is how smoothly it slices through paper.

Now, there are many knife makers who do a lot of testing, and you can find several of those makers here on this forum. Ask any of them if they just assume a knife can, or cannot, accomplish x, y or z tasks. Unless they have already tested it for themselves they are likely going to claim that they don't know, and that they will have to test it to be sure.




Quote
Any Cal.
If the knife was designed for those things, then it would function poorly at cutting,

No, there are many knives designed for multiple functions beyond just cutting that can also cut well. I own several. In fact I own folding knives that are roughly the same size and weight as my Delica that can handle more torque on the pivot area and cut as well as the Delica.




Quote
Any Cal.
Testing the limits is excellent, but if a person blames a tool when it doesn't function far beyond it's design parameters, it indicates a lack of knowledge.

I didn't see any comments that blamed anything on a knife. I, and others, simply pointed out that the pivot area on the Delica seems weak compared to those of some other folders in the same size and weight class (ie. Griptillian, various CS folders.) I was trying to determine what the knife is capable of... by using it.

I went to the Spyderco website to see if the Delica was designed to cut packing straps that were sunk deep into cardboard but unfortunately they didn't list that task. Perhaps if I was a more experienced knife user I would simply know by staring at the knife. I'll work on that.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 23, 2016 09:01AM
Chum, you had not said the Delica was bad, but your tone seemed to imply you felt it was poorly made because of its performance under misuse. You are more than welcome to any opinion you choose. I have not said anything about your choices or opinions, as of my last post you had not made a concrete statement about your opinon.

Before you decided completely, I was trying to offer to you what seemed to be a bit broader perspective. You are comparing to folders that are at least 50% heavier and built for different work to a knife with a very focused design. It appears that switching to the steel handle Delica would alleviate worries about flex at the pivot, but at the cost of 1.5oz.

If you like the Delica design, the best compromise may be the G10 model, which weighs 1.25 oz less than the Lawman, but have similar strength when loaded sideways. The flat grind would likely still not be much of a scraper or prybar, but neither are Cold Steel's hollowground blades. If it had the typical sharp Spyderco spine, the backside of the blade may make a decent scraper while saving your edge. It doesn't mean the FRN is bad, just designed to suit a different need.
Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 24, 2016 02:26AM
Chum-
Does the Delica have a plain edge, combo, or full serrated? I think that serrations might help cut the straps if the knife is on the left side if the strap, and with the chisel grind of the serrated edge, you could start a cut on the strap without having to torque the knife?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Folders and pivot strength
January 24, 2016 03:29AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Chum-
Does the Delica have a plain edge, combo, or full serrated? I think that serrations might help cut the straps if the knife is on the left side if the strap, and with the chisel grind of the serrated edge, you could start a cut on the strap without having to torque the knife?

Plain edge. I want to try a Pacific Salt fully serrated.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member