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How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?

Posted by Any Cal. 
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How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 21, 2016 06:17AM
The question I ponder...

Since edgeholding superiority of steels changes with different parameters- Which steel can take an amazing edge, and keep it the longest? Referring specifically to only losing perhaps 10% of sharpness, and a 1200g or finer edge. Cutting cardboard, paper, etc.

Are we back to razor blades? Would it make sense to think that anything can outcut a razor?

The thought occured to me today that razors are likely not limited by cost, but by performance. Consider, the construction of them leads to huge economies of scale, and the cost is quite variable. I would guess that there could still be a large market even if the price rose 10-20%, meaning that other steel types could still be viable, I think. If a steel worked significantly better, it seems that it might be used by now?

Interested in this because I am wanting to build a boot knife for myself, and am most interested in very sharp knives. My experience with several steels shows that the first 10% of degradation comes quickly, so wondering if there is a significant (2-3x) difference in ANY steels, barring some extremely poor choices. Does it just come down to the steel matrix always being the weakest link in the apex?
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 21, 2016 03:20PM
I am just taking a guess, but high apex steels could be what you're looking for.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 01:56AM
Quote
jasonstone20
I am just taking a guess, but high apex steels could be what you're looking for.

Like ABE-L AEB-L ? A low carbide, landes type I steel smiling smiley

____
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I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 02:11AM
I have an AEBL blade I need to test, but curious as to what might have similar edge stability but higher wear resistance.
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 02:23AM
SandM,
Yes, a type I steel. I have know idea however if that will work. My thinking is that if a steel can get to higher level of sharpness it might give it longer time being sharp. Just guessing however.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 02:23AM
M2...or if you can find an F class steel

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Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 02:25AM
Collin-
That's an excellent suggestion.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 06:36AM
Quote
Any Cal.
I have an AEBL blade I need to test, but curious as to what might have similar edge stability but higher wear resistance.

If it has good hardness then just drop the edge angle and leave a coarser edge. Works similar to serrations then. My mileage at least experimenting with different steels: Low carbide steels with good hardness gives greatest range of "catering the edge" for a specific application.
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 06:38AM
Hmmm. I do have what 'should' be an M2 blade, a NOS power hacksaw blade, that would make a good test subject.

Must plead ignorance on the 'F' class though. What is it?

Are there any comparisons already done somewhere on some of these steels? I don't mind trying on my own, but hate to redo work that has been done before.
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 07:32AM
Any Cal-
Dr. Landes' book has charts and graphs about this subject. It's written in German.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 08:25AM
Oh. The german thing may be out... smiling smiley

marthinus, thank you for that. Sounds like a good way to start. It was a Chef's knife I started specifically to try out the steel, but never got around to finishing. It is hardened and rough ground, but no handles.

Well, shoot. Any references to other type 1 or F class steels, or simple way of classifying them? More info on the system? Will be searching them shortly, but Fclass covers quite a few disciplines...

-ohh, f class as in european tungsten steels, copy that. Will keep an eye out just in case-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2016 09:04AM by Any Cal..
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 09:27AM
Quote
Any Cal.
Well, shoot. Any references to other type 1 or F class steels, or simple way of classifying them? More info on the system? Will be searching them shortly, but Fclass covers quite a few disciplines...

-ohh, f class as in european tungsten steels, copy that. Will keep an eye out just in case-

Try googling "Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel" to find "verhoeven.pdf" it says things like
Quote

From this discussion it appears that the two steels discussed in Chapter 13, Uddeholm
AEB-L and Sandvik 12C27, along with the similar steels of Table B1, (DD400 and AUS6)
provide the best combination of properties desired in a knife blade:
(1) An as-quenched hardness in the 63 to 64 R c range which should provide high wear resistance.
(2) An adequate level of Cr in the austenite formed prior to quenching to provide good corrosion
resistance, a bit above the minimum 12 %Cr.
(3) The presence of fine arrays of the K 1 + K 2 chromium carbides to enhance wear resistance plus
the absence of the larger primary chrome carbides that promote pull-out at sharpened edges.

Keep in mind, cliff is always talking about how cardboard can be very abrasive, so you can lose sharpness rapidly
how angle / grit finish plays a bigger role than steel type
but then he also has video making 1000 slices into hardwood and it still push cuts at 45 and shaves hair

____
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I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 01:48PM
Any Cal.
Right, Dr..Verhoeven says a similar thing as Dr. Landes. Funny how science works! winking smiley

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 22, 2016 09:13PM
Got the PDF. I seem to recall reading it, but it has been years. Glad to get it again!
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 24, 2016 02:32AM
ShaperAndMower-
That's a good point. Any Cal., what type of cutting are you planning on doing? Push cutting and slicing are different, and the so are the respective types of sharpness, so the edges degrade differently.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 24, 2016 02:48AM
Yeah, the problem is I really like the ultra fine edges, and often use them on abrasive media. Think pushcutting cardboard longer than currently...
Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 24, 2016 02:56AM
Have you tried a coarse edge for cardboard? I like ultrafine edges also, but I find coarse ones are useful, behave different with different materials.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: How long can the best steel hold a super fine edge?
January 24, 2016 02:59AM
Sure, but then I can't cut the top off both sides of a freestanding bag of chips by pushcutting... grinning smiley