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M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS

Posted by jasonstone20 
M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 26, 2017 10:22AM
I have been wanting to see a HSS that had enough chromium in is to make it stainless, and similar to M2. I thing SG2 might be what I was looking for, here is the ZKnives charts of the two:

M2:
[zknives.com]

SG2:
[zknives.com]

The compositions listed on the steels:
--------|| C | Cr | Mo | V | Mn | Si | P | S | Cu | W ||
M2:---|| 0.78- | 3.75- | 4.50- | 1.75- | 0.15- | 0.20- | 0.03 | 0.03 | 0.25 | 5.50- ||
--------|| 1.05 | 4.50 | 5.50 | 2.20 | 0.40 | 0.45 | | 6.75 ||
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SG2:-|| 1.25- | 14- | 2.3- | 1.8- | 0.40 | 0.50 | 0.03 | 0.03
--------|| 1.45 | 16 | 3.3 | 2.2 |


Looking at SG2, S30V/S35V/ELMAX don't look that bad of a choice either.
Metallurgy isn't my strong suit, does anyone have any input? Is SG2 worth chasing in a knife?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2017 10:26AM by jasonstone20.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 26, 2017 12:57PM
Jason,

SG2 isnt a high speed it is powder metallurgical stainless similar to S30V
with a bit higher hardness / strength and corrosion resistance.
Comparable in toughness.

I would prefer that SG2 its stainless unlike M2.

What kind of knife should it be ? a folder ?
What do u want it to cut the best ?

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 26, 2017 03:13PM
I like steels that can hold a high sharpenss edge and take one readily when sharpened. Just for EDC cutting.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 26, 2017 03:42PM
Dang it, when is M2 going to make a comeback?

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Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 26, 2017 04:50PM
SG2 must have been mistakenly labeled as a HSS on the site I read it from.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 27, 2017 02:38AM
Jason, I'm not sure, but I think the HSS refers to High Speed Steel, which I think just reflects that it can be used in high heat applications w/o losing temper, like M2 can withstand the friction of hacksawing.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 27, 2017 10:34AM
CAmber,
You are right. I know M2 HSS but I saw on a website that SG2 was listed as a HSS, which I think could have been mistaken.

edited for sp/gr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2017 10:35AM by jasonstone20.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 27, 2017 03:58PM
Quote
jasonstone20
I like steels that can hold a high sharpenss edge and take one readily when sharpened. Just for EDC cutting.

What do u consider a high sharpness? sorry I am not catching on words, but want to understand..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 27, 2017 04:58PM
JSCT,
High psuh cutting sharpness as is a straight razor or scalpel blade, but that still can slice.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 28, 2017 03:56AM
So you need a high strength steel on your blade with not too much carbides in it.
Not sure if SG2 does not have a bit too much. Steel like SG2 wont be so easy to sharpen
to shaving sharp, RWL-34 would go a bit faster, AEB-L might lose slicing aggression too fast,
but can get super sharp in a few minutes it is really fun to sharpen it..

I prefer steels in RWL-34 to AEB-L range and SB1 should lie in between.. somewhere.
I will test it shortly.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
cKc
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 29, 2017 05:41AM
Quote
jasonstone20
I like steels that can hold a high sharpenss edge and take one readily when sharpened. Just for EDC cutting.
so... AEB-L.. which is probably my standard answer to almost any question... if you need more stainless, then I think they are all a dime a dozen. s30v, elmax, whatever... take one readily when sharpened is going to be more about the heat-treat than anything else.. too soft it will burr too much, to brittle it will flake off.. too many large carbides it will be rough.. but get the heat treat right and they are take a good edge readily if there was no damage. the real problem is when you need to work the knife because of damage.. thats when I think you with your knife was 54rc machete steel grinning smiley


I'm still waiting to see when cliff will do some dedicated trials with that 304stainless knife I sent him.. I think he is pretty busy with other things these days.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
[data.gearbastion.com]
KnivesAndStuff (YoutTube)
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 29, 2017 06:22AM
Well, I was sold a fantasy in the early to mid 2000's, a thing called a 'super steel'. which could take a fine edge like a carbon steel, have the wear resistance of a high carbide steel, and the stain resistance of a stainless steel. It sounds like a good idea, except for the fact in the real world, a steel for knives can only do two out of the three....so I am still chasing that unicorn...

cKc,
AEB-L is the steel that fits what I am looking for, if fact anything even close to it works fine (12C27M, 12C27, 440B, AUS 6, AUS 8, 420HC, ect). I have always sharpened my own knives (even when I could just maintain a scraping sharp edge), so edge retention isn't a concern, plus I only do kitchen work or very light EDC, so my it takes a long time for my knives to dull, no hard work done like in my youth.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
March 29, 2017 12:25PM
Quote
jasonstone20
cKc,
AEB-L is the steel that fits what I am looking for, if fact anything even close to it works fine (12C27M, 12C27, 440B, AUS 6, AUS 8, 420HC, ect). I have always sharpened my own knives (even when I could just maintain a scraping sharp edge), so edge retention isn't a concern, plus I only do kitchen work or very light EDC, so my it takes a long time for my knives to dull, no hard work done like in my youth.

Jason, if You are really ok with AEB-L and do dont require higher wear resistance,
than do not even bother with steels that contain over 0,85 wt% Carbon,
if they are stainless or more alloyed. Yes there might be some exceptions...
But I think You got the point.. smiling smiley

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
July 02, 2017 09:21AM
Would a steel that had the same base as BG-42 or S30V work if you replace the V(Vanadium) with W(Tungsten)? Would their be any improvement in edge stability or edge retention?
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
July 02, 2017 10:13AM
Tungsten would allow the steel to have a secondary hardening cycle as it will dissolve at low enough temperatures in the soak. Hence why tungsten (and molybdenum) are in HSS. In regards to pure wear/carbide, vanadium is generally superior as it is harder. In regards to stability/toughness etc., they are not significantly different as they form similar types of carbides (small MC type).
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
August 04, 2017 02:44PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Would a steel that had the same base as BG-42 or S30V work if you replace the V(Vanadium) with W(Tungsten)? Would their be any improvement in edge stability or edge retention?

These are always more complex changes than they appear.. Because we talk about
complex alloys.. Lets take S30V as an example:

If You substitute all 3% of V in it with W than probably:

As W has lower affinity to C than V:

1 There will be lower percentage of hard carbides.
- worse wear resistance

2 Total cabide volume wont change much just there will be more chromium in carbides.
- worse corrosion resistance

3 It could be a tiny bit stronger like 0,5HRC max but not really tougher at the same hardness.

I actually dont remember to ever see W in a stainless it is just unoptimal.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2017 02:45PM by JSCT.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
August 04, 2017 03:44PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Tungsten would allow the steel to have a secondary hardening cycle as it will dissolve at low enough temperatures in the soak. Hence why tungsten (and molybdenum) are in HSS. In regards to pure wear/carbide, vanadium is generally superior as it is harder. In regards to stability/toughness etc., they are not significantly different as they form similar types of carbides (small MC type).

I might be considered a witch these days but I start to prefer steels with softer carbides !
I often take edges to high grit polishes about 6000grit or sometimes even 1micron..
And I find sharpening / edge holding time ratio real excellent for 62+HRC AEB-L
and RWL-34 compared to steels alloyed with V..
I mostly use very low edge angles so bevels might be wider thus more surface
to grind on stones.. I mostly cut soft foods by push at high sharpness
so wear resistance isnt such a significant attribute..

Forgot: But to have some corrosion resistance is a real nice thing in a real world
So I dont use much carbon steels.. People who invented first high strength stainless
should be thanked by us smiling smiley

perspectives on niolox and AEB-L

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2017 03:47PM by JSCT.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 18, 2017 10:51AM
This is more what I had in mind also:
High Speed Steel [imgur.com]

The SRS-15 steel, with 1.5% C, 13% Cr, 1.25% W, 1.5, 2.5% Mo.

Basically I am looking for a steel that has a similar carbide content and will take a fine edge but is stainless.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 27, 2017 10:48PM
Doing more research, what I actually am interested in is a stainless form of F2 steel. Does anyone know how close AEB-L/13C26/14C28N/LC200N/Nitrobe 77 is to being a stainless F2?
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 02:08PM
I don't know what people mean in general when they say a stainless form of X. It can't be something like do what X does and be stainless, as that is impossible. When you add chromium to make a steel stain resistant you change the structure of the steel.

If you mean something similar to like - acts kind of like X, but is stainless. Then AEB-L is similar to F2 but :

-softer (3-5 points depending on the person doing the hardening)
-lower wear resistance (lacks the MC carbides)

It should be possible to add MC carbide to AEB-L, but you just can't add W (or V) as that will distort the matrix, so you have to play around with the composition to ensure that everything balances. There are actually programs which allow you to make those kinds of adjustments and estimate steel properties.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 04:09PM
Cliff,
What I am looking for is a stainless knife steel that will take a fine edge, like M2, F2, or Super Blue. Also, if you could add W or V to the matrix of AEB-L, that is also something I would be interested in, but I don't know that much about metallurgy, but I do know it isn't as simple as adding some elements and subtracting others, which is why I was interested in SG2, SRS-15, and Niolox, because they hopefully had already been studied before production, unlike Nitro V.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2017 04:15PM by jasonstone20.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 06:11PM
Quote
CliffStamp
... There are actually programs which allow you to make those kinds of adjustments and estimate steel properties.

As in a computer program or software that can be used on, for example, a simple Windows laptop? Are they relatively inexpensive, like around $40-$50?
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 07:08PM
Ryan,
I think there is a thread on this forum about such software. I will see if I can find it.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 07:18PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Ryan,
I think there is a thread on this forum about such software. I will see if I can find it.

Thanks Jason.

It'd be interesting to mess around with, my thought is that it could be a very useful tool to help augment the information in decent metallurgy textbook. A person could read about specific properties, types of substructures, and various alloy elements, then use the computer program to help construct a more tangible representation of what can happen with slight changes in composition.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 07:45PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Cliff,
What I am looking for is a stainless knife steel that will take a fine edge, like M2, F2, or Super Blue.

That is AEB-L, get Jeremy to make you a knife in it with a fine grind and do a decent hardening (cold treatment, accelerated quench). You should be able to get 62-64 HRC, very high corrosion resistance and the highest apex stability essentially of any steel.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 07:49PM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Quote
CliffStamp
... There are actually programs which allow you to make those kinds of adjustments and estimate steel properties.

As in a computer program or software that can be used on, for example, a simple Windows laptop? Are they relatively inexpensive, like around $40-$50?

You need a LOT more zero's .

[www.thermocalc.com]
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 08:24PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Quote
CliffStamp
... There are actually programs which allow you to make those kinds of adjustments and estimate steel properties.

As in a computer program or software that can be used on, for example, a simple Windows laptop? Are they relatively inexpensive, like around $40-$50?

You need a LOT more zero's .

[www.thermocalc.com]

Crap.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 10:05PM
Ryan,
That's it, Cliff found it.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 30, 2017 10:13PM
Cliff,
KWB (Klye) made me a nice small 2" AEB-L blade at 62-63 HRC which is amazing. The steel is way different at 62-63 HRC than at 60 HRC. I have been wanting to get a knife from Jeremy for a while now. What got me on this track was that I kept reading about how good of an edge M2 and CPM M4 take, but live in a fairly wet and humid environment (Pacific Northwest Temperate Rainforest), so stainless in nice. Also, I read that M2 basically replaced F2, and F2 looked like what I was also looking at, along with Super Blue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2017 10:14PM by jasonstone20.
Re: M2 HHS vs SG2 HSS
December 31, 2017 10:41AM
The apex stability of M2, F2, etc. are all lower than AEB-L, they just have higher wear resistance.
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