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SB1 / Niolox impressions

Posted by JSCT 
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SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 04, 2017 10:35PM
Little perspective:

I got some niolox (SB1) and I was a bit surprised as when it comes to grindability and sharpenability
it really feels a lot closer to elmax than to AEB-L..

If I think of it now it isnt such unexpected as:
0.7 wt% Nb
0.9 wt% V
1.1 wt% Mo
in the alloy where 0.8 wt% C is more than enough to provide at least twice
as much carbides than AEB-L has. And significant amount of that carbides will consist of V and Nb.
It made enormous difference compared to the steels with only chromium carbides.

For some reason when ordering I thought SB1 can be somewhere between AEB-L and RWL-34.
I was wrong because of my explanation upper. Niolox is not that easy to work with and I must
experiment more with the HT but it isnt easy to get 60HRC out of it.
While it is really easy to get 62 out of AEB-L f.e...
Logically if that C is in cabides, it isnt there for martensite ofc
Actually my 62HRC RWL-34 is a lot easier to grind and polish
than 59,5HRC niolox/SB1. (both same temp low tempered)
On the other hand it handles bending real great and seems to be
an excellent for filletting knives with good edge retention
or tough outdoor blades.. So tougher and more wear resistant
but not as strong as RWL-34 for keen edge angles.
Feels to be same toughness as AEB-L at the same hardness..

No it isnt like 19C27 perhaps very different half way to elmax in my opinion.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 05, 2017 05:06AM
I am making a large batch of kitchen and some outdoor knives in niolox. I agree with you on niolox wear resistant is a lot higher than aebl (and 3v). My niolox test blades have better wear resistance (at same/similar hrc) than D2 but slightly less than s30v & D6. On average, it took about 4 2x72 belts to grind one 5" petty blade, which almost as bad as when working on 10V & S90V. My HRC for these niolox blades (include two 1/4" thick compact choppers) are a few points higher than 60rc.

RWL34 is very similar to CPM154, which is very easy to grind - around ave 1 belt per blade (from 5 different grit belts for 5 blades). Becut is close to niolox but my test blade didn't come out well - maybe I used poor ht params.
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 06, 2017 09:38AM
very top of the post contain pic..

Some experiences with corrosion issues..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 08, 2017 10:19PM
So it seems that the small amounts of Vanadium and Niobium in this alloy do make a considerable difference. Also, I noticed that Niolox takes the same "orange peel" appearance as D2 and N690. Perhaps we should expect a level of edge retention compared to VG10 and CPM 154 on abrasive cutting.
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 09, 2017 10:08PM
Quote
Caraldc
So it seems that the small amounts of Vanadium and Niobium in this alloy do make a considerable difference. Also, I noticed that Niolox takes the same "orange peel" appearance as D2 and N690. Perhaps we should expect a level of edge retention compared to VG10 and CPM 154 on abrasive cutting.

As it is much harder to grind than RWL-34 I would say SB1 will have
higer resistance to abrasion than RWL-34 as well in a knife blade.
On the other hand I rather like steels that gets stronger
to be able to use low edge angles..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 10, 2017 12:46AM
If there is enough Vanadium in a steel, enough to form a significant amount of carbides, the grindability and wear resistance can be often simplified to just the Vanadium percentage (or equivalents) as MC carbides are so much harder than the chromium/Molybdenum based carbides.

That being said, there is rarely a direct gain, watch out for the common decrease in apex stability (thin section strength) that comes with increased carbide volume.
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 10, 2017 01:02AM
Thus far, Z-FiNit is the only steel (i've tinkered with) my ht couldn't harden higher than 60.5rc. I also like steels can harden to higher hardness. Niolox mfg's document on hrc & grain size were discouraging but I tried anway because I thought/hope it would response similar to aebl or rwl34/cpm154. With my proprietary ht - 66rc is the highest avg hardness for niolox.

Here is my ht version 2.4 test compact chopper video (2.4 peak hardness at 65rc, whereas ver 2.5 peak at 66rc)
[youtu.be]

Quote
JSCT
...
As it is much harder to grind than RWL-34 I would say SB1 will have
higer resistance to abrasion than RWL-34 as well in a knife blade.
On the other hand I rather like steels that gets stronger
to be able to use low edge angles..
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 10, 2017 09:17PM
Quote
CliffStamp
If there is enough Vanadium in a steel, enough to form a significant amount of carbides, the grindability and wear resistance can be often simplified to just the Vanadium percentage (or equivalents) as MC carbides are so much harder than the chromium/Molybdenum based carbides.

That being said, there is rarely a direct gain, watch out for the common decrease in apex stability (thin section strength) that comes with increased carbide volume.

Makes sense, dont take me now too scientifically but it gives impression
that by change at cabide volume:
Between edge stabilty and wear resistance exists somewhat
like indirect proportion..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 10, 2017 09:59PM
Quote
bluntcut
Thus far, Z-FiNit is the only steel (i've tinkered with) my ht couldn't harden higher than 60.5rc. I also like steels can harden to higher hardness. Niolox mfg's document on hrc & grain size were discouraging but I tried anway because I thought/hope it would response similar to aebl or rwl34/cpm154. With my proprietary ht - 66rc is the highest avg hardness for niolox.

Here is my ht version 2.4 test compact chopper video (2.4 peak hardness at 65rc, whereas ver 2.5 peak at 66rc)
[youtu.be]

Quote
JSCT
...
As it is much harder to grind than RWL-34 I would say SB1 will have
higer resistance to abrasion than RWL-34 as well in a knife blade.
On the other hand I rather like steels that gets stronger
to be able to use low edge angles..

Well 64HRC (in vid) sounds extremely high I know You are using different quench method
than the whole industry..

I was able to ht to 62-63HRC only RWL-34 and AEB-L not any other steel.
(multiple low tempers with freezing after quench and between tempers)
This is what enviroment around me allows me to perform with these steels.

At the same aust temp niolox was 2.5 HRC points lower than RWL-34 and AEB-L.
I assume that niolox will need a higher aust temp for more carbon to go into austenite
however as I do not have access to liquid nitrogen I would get more retained austenite.
I only ht-ed niolox once so I will try to take it 20C higher next time and will see it isnt
terribly "overalloyed" so it could be a happyend smiling smiley My hypothesis also confirms the fact
that corrosion resistance of that niolox wasnt any good for stainless so it defo needed
higher aust temp to have both more chromium and carbon in solution..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 10, 2017 11:26PM
Quote
JSCT


Makes sense, dont take me now too scientifically but it gives impression
that by change at cabide volume:
Between edge stabilty and wear resistance exists somewhat
like indirect proportion..

Yes, I believe Landes was the first to note that in the major forums, but it is known in the razor manufacturing industry for essentially forever. If you look at old patents for razor blade steels, there was an upper limit on carbide formers for this very reason.

This was extremely controversial when he first made the arguments (early 2000's), and is kind of getting accepted now finally. However in some places it is still controversial (Spyderco's forum for example).
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
August 11, 2017 09:26PM
Read throught some today, havent enough time to read all details yet
saved bout 4 patents for later smiling smiley Interesting, thanks Cliff.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: SB1 / Niolox impressions
March 13, 2021 06:35PM
Quote
CliffStamp


That being said, there is rarely a direct gain, watch out for the common decrease in apex stability (thin section strength) that comes with increased carbide volume.

Isn't that the problem with ALL these steels, which negates any advantage they were supposed to deliver, when chopping 10" 20 ounce blades at or below 15 dps?

I also increasingly think one of the problems is too much apex retention, which retention hatefully holds a tiny bent lever at the top, gradually bending the rest of the apex with each successive impact: In that context, isn't good edge holding better off by LOSING that bit of bent apex, so the top stays aligned under repeated impacts?

This would explain why 420J does so well for me... With the added advantage of being much easier to sharpen.

It seems a situation where less edge holding could be more.