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EDC Grit Finish: What Do You Use, Why, And How To Select And Compare Grit Finishes For EDC Use

Posted by jasonstone20 
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What grit finishes do you all use for EDC? Does the finish change depending on steel type and edge angle used? How did you select and compare those grit finishes?

I am asking because I am having very hard time telling the difference in EDC use between two different grit finishes. Both edges are tree-topping arm hair sharp, and are Class II steels (8Cr13MoV and 154CM). I have tried both stropping the edges after sharpening or just using the edge off the stone. I really don't see any improvement with stropping either, and it can absolutely destroy your slicing aggression.

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"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
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StoneSharpEdges



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2019 09:51AM by jasonstone20.
[www.bladeforums.com]

Quote
Cliff Stamp
This is one of the few steels in modern knives which is designed as an actual knife steel. That is to say it has the ability to take a very sharp edge and the properties to hold it and Spyderco is running it nice and hard. Considering its purpose I would run it with a high polish and use it for push cutting. For an aggressive slicer I would use a much more coarse finish on a much higher carbide steel, D2 or similar.

-Cliff


This is the advice I am trying to practice.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
The only steels I have with a significant carbide percentage are S30V, D2, ELMAX, 154CM/ATS-34. Is the carbide volume enough to benefit from a coarser edge? With my cutting technique or style, I mostly push cut. I have notice that there is some slicing action no matter how careful or deliberate my cutting motion is. Also, the blade can and will stall so I have to slice sometimes. I have noticed nice results with a DMT 325 Blue Coarse Edge and the Norton Fine India. I normally run a grit finish that is pretty high, like a Spyderco UF Rod or Dan's Surgical Black Arkansas.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
I usually finish sharpening my pocket knives with the Fallkniven DC4. Works well for maintaining the edge over a long time (months). For me it has a combination of push cutting and slicing performance that work.

I like single pocket hone set ups for pocket knives. If a knife losses to much sharpness just take the hone and restore sharpness. No setting up systems or soaking stones. :-)
JDW,
Yes, I carry either a folding 325/600 diamond hone and a medium ceramic dogbone sharpener, or the WorkSharp Field Sharpener.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
[forum.spyderco.com]
Quote
Cliff Stamp
I think in fact this is a critical issue. If you look at the above the performance of that knife on the hemp at the far left where it is the highest is many times to one greater than the K2/Farid in 10V at 63 HRC. How do you thus describe the edge retention of the steel? Would you be willing to sharpen such a knife with the same edge/grit because if you don't then this knife has better edge retention on slicing hemp and similar materials.

However I have been considering a different metric, what about if instead of looking at edge retention just on slicing, you looked at this number :

-TCE (slicing) * TCE (push cutting)

If you take the 120 Sigma Power then the push cutting performance would be very low so that metric which is a kind of average edge retention over normal slicing and push cutting would be low as well. However if you move up to AEB-L then you can get higher edge retention at a finer finish and this might allow a greater total maximum performance. At this point I don't have the data, but it seems reasonable. In this way you could say then that AEB-L has a higher edge retention in an absolute sense over a range of grits and apex angles.

^^^^
THIS
This is what I am trying to work out.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
[www.bladeforums.com]

Quote
Cliff
First off congradulations on actually taking a more coarse finish to that high a level of sharpness, the reason that there are several myths about coarse finishes is often because they are left with pretty much a edge left as shaped with no refinements.

Now as to the benefits of a higher polish, when you are cutting do you notice that there is too much resistance as you are pushing the blade through the material. Does it feel too rough and tend to catch and drag material with it? Are you sharpening a little too frequent? If these sound familiar then you can expect a benfit from a higher finish.

If you go too high then you will notice that the blade doesn't bite well enough, it slips frequently on material, requires heavy force to cut well and again you have to sharpen too often. In that case you would try reducing the grit a little.

What works very well on a lot of blades is to give them a dual finish as popularized by Talmadge. After you finish the blades with the medium rods then you polish one section, often the tip, with the fine rods. This leaves the blade near the choil with aggressive slicing ability and gives better push cutting sharpness and edge retention with the tip.

On some blades the opposite works well also. On large brush blades for example I polish the blade near the choil for chopping and carving woods but leave the tip with a more coarse finish for slicing vegatation.

-Cliff

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
I think I have been approaching how I view EDC edge's backwards. Since I mostly push-cut, I had been looking for a push-cutting edge that would also slice. I think a better way to look at the problem is find a slicing edge that will also push cut. The Norton F India, Dan's Soft Arkansas, and Spyderco Medium Ceramic seem to be a better solution that taking a Spyderco UF and Dan's Surgical Black to edge angles of 10* DPS/20* Inclusive so they will still slice well for medium to high carbide steels (AUS-8, 8Cr13MoV, 154CM, S30V, D2, VG-10).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
I think for EDC a coarse edge is a better option. Before I was using the edge geometry to slice, and the grit finish to push cut, but I am trying out using the edge geometry for push cutting and the grit finish for slicing. I think because for EDC you can have to cut unknown materials, having the best balance of slicing and push cutting would be ideal, and that is what I am searching for now.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
So I just used the Spyderco Diamond rods at 15*DPS/30*INC, and the edge started to roll. Looks like it is back to a high grit edge for me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
Why do you think going to a higher grit will fix that Jason? I'm having a hard time figuring it out, seems like a strength issue rather than finish.
Luisknicacc,
Because the problem only happened when I used the coarse diamond finish. I have had this issue before with the same grit finish. I didn't have the issue with the polished edge. The other thing is that I use a push cut motion naturally when I cut, not a slicing motion, so I get small burrs forming on the edge, which is a better description of what happened than the edge rolling. The edge didn't really roll, I just got very small burrs.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
Well, I am deciding to go back to the Norton M SiC/F India finish. Slicing aggression fades to fast with the high grit, high polished edges for what I am doing. Not sure why this is happening, but after a few weeks of use, the polished edges lose slicing aggression almost completely, as they fail the Murray Carter Three Finger Test. I can just slide the knife over my fingers or hand with light pressure. I can't do that with the F India finish. On another blade I am using the DMT Red F #600 grit edge, I am going to see what I like best.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
That is one of the reasons I moved from a fine Spyderco edge to a Fallkniven DC4 diamond edge, To keep slicing aggression for longer. On an edc knife that makes the edge useful for longer.
Well, I am having issues figuring this out. The edge keeps rolling with the coarse edges, I am going back to the Surgical Black Arkansas. I think the issue is the way I cut. I push cut, and this isn't compatible with a coarser edge.

EDIT: I am going to try the DMT EEF 3u 8K Mesh edge out instead of the Surgical Black Arkansas

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2019 09:47PM by jasonstone20.
I think I am using an angle too steep (closer to zero) for the work I am trying to do, as my edges lately are not lasting as long as I would like, I think I need to add a microbevel at around 10°,12.5°, or 15°)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
So I used the DMT Aligner Magna-Guide and took the edge up to the DMT EEF 3u 8K Mesh at the lowest setting on the VG10 Yobotool Silvback. Knife was HHT 3/4 sharp, and easily sliced Kirkland brand paper towels, and push cut OCB Hemp cigarette paper, along with being able to slice the paper bent. I was able to break down around ten cardboard food boxes and still have a knife that passed a HHT 3/4.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
Ok, so I am going to compare a polished edge (DMT C, F, EF, EEF, GATCO UF Finishing Stone Ceramic, Stropped with 1u Diamond and .5u CrOx) with a #325 grit DMT Diamond (no stropping). The Coarse Edge is on the Spyderco Resilience in 8Cr13MoV, and the polished edge is on the Benchmade 555 Mini-Griptillian in 154CM. Both edges would pop beard hair and tree top arm hair. The coarse finish would pass a HHT 0/1/2, while the polished edge would pass a HHT 3/4.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2020 09:29AM by jasonstone20.
320 or 700 grit DMT.

Maybe a Spyderco UF stone after that.

I have become lazy and if I cant sharpen a knife while the kettle is getting to a boil the edge is
too thick. That is my bigger worry these days.

320 and 700 has worked for me, no matter the steel or task.

Is it optimal, no, but good enough.
marthinus,
What passes for sharp for you?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
Quote
jasonstone20
marthinus,
What passes for sharp for you?

Catches hair and pops it (with a slight tug you can feel on the hair) on the side of my head. That is a good working edge for me.

A few years back I did extensive testing on Nitrobe-77 and INFI.

What I concluded is that steels that are low in carbide volume and heat treated properly can be catered to suite your task. Nitrobe could take from a coarse grit (200-320) for aggressive cutting and then high polished as well for push cutting. My favorite edge for all my needs is around 1500-2000 grit with these steels. Best balance for me between push cutting and pull cutting.

Now I am just lazy. The DMT is next to the kettle and I sharpen my knife while I make my evening coffee.
Quote
marthinus
Now I am just lazy. The DMT is next to the kettle and I sharpen my knife while I make my evening coffee.

This..

What is the edge that you like,
but what is the edge that is fast, easy and gets the job done? because that's the edge most people will apply smiling smiley

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Latest purchase. karesuando kniven hunting axe
KnivesAndStuff (YoutTube)
My preference for most work lately has been the DMT Fine plate. The only time I’ve been using a finer finish (either a microbevel with the Spyderco fine rods or no microbevel off the Naniwa SuperStone 400 or 1,000) is on blades that are used for wood cutting, like my machetes and axes.

I tend to use a slice/draw motion when cutting most materials, not a push cut, so I’ve been very happy with the DMT 25 micron finish. It’s extremely aggressive with a draw, the edge lasts a very long time, and it’s easy to get the sharpness up to where it shaves with very little irritation. I also like how the same stone is effective on all my knives, as opposed to something like a Norton India that struggles with anything at or above MBS-26 in carbide volume.

I favor that DMT Fine so much that I got a 11.5”x2.5” Dia-Sharp. Somewhat expensive but very nice to work with on even the largest of knives.
Guys,
I think the sharpness that marthinus describes is basically all you need for sharpness.
From testing I think Cliff and others (maybe cKc) did, the DMT Fine was the best in edge retention and had the best balance between push cutting and slicing. I think I am going to try it and the F India again. All I have noticed in the difference between a DMT 325 and a high polished, stropped edge is that the polished edge push cuts better and the DMT 325 slices better, which is pretty obvious.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
Jason, I like the more coarse finishes because, as long as you’re using a draw cut, they will continue to make clean cuts on most materials even when they’re way below shaving sharp.

But just an FYI, that DMT 600 (25 micron) finish is not very balanced, it can’t push cut very well at all. On plastics for example, it could take 15 pounds to push the knife through the material but only 5 or less to slice through it. The Spyderco medium ceramics are closer to a balance between the two, around 12 microns.

The DMT Extra Fine (9 micron) would probably be one of the better all-around finishes but I avoided it because of the inconsistency of the stones, they’re really erratic and can take a while to wear in and actually start making that 9 micron finish.
Ryan,
Yes, that is what everyone says, that is why the 600 grit was surprise. The balance was on edge retention, not how well it cut. I can't remember the parameters of the test and I can't find it on the forum, but what you said has been my experience in use also.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
I think Joe Calton is the fan of the coarse edge, for utility..

Norton Grits

personally i find the norton crystolon stone a very good all round finish.. note the "fine" is 320 grit, and yet this is used far and wide as a fine honing edge for tools which is a good blend to teeth and push cut.

this and stropping on spyderco medium for me gets excellent results in an abrasivet that lasts a long time

alternatively the DMT Fine is also very good for me.

any of these kinds of abrasives do what i need because my apex's are so small that the finishing on any stone i need for polish or stropping takes only moments normally,

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Latest purchase. karesuando kniven hunting axe
KnivesAndStuff (YoutTube)
Cut testing:

Starting with a container full of food boxes:


So there are 14 boxes, 7-10 cuts per box.


Knives used:

Spyderco Resilience: Blue DMT #325 C Grit
Benchmade 555 Mini-Griptillian: DMT Magna-Guide Aligner, C, F, EF, EEF, GATCO Ultra FIne Fininsh Hone (White Ceramic), stropped on Portland Knife House 1u Diamond Compound, 0.5 Maggards CrOx, Plain Canvas/Linen, Plain Leather.

Finished Cutting:


Both edges would still tree-top arm hair after in places. In other pars of the blade it shaves, but there is a clear loss of sharpness. The handle, size of the blade, ect made much more of difference in cutting that I could tell than the grit finish. Both blades have 2-3 micro-chips.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges
Good testing. Keep it up.

I just wanted to show what my knives can see in a day. This is my heavily used sebenza. Today it cut around 5 sheets of 800grit, 1200grit and 2000 grit silicone carbide wet amd dry paper.

I also used it to deburr Ti cutouts after milling.







It was completely dull.

Sharpening was as follows.

Shaping
10 strokes per side 320.
3 strokes per side 700

Apexing
1 sps very lightly 700

Backsharpening

1 light stroke 700.

I even did 2 strops on Unipol Blue compound.

Grans hair on my head, shaves neck and hand hair.
When you wear that blade to a nub will you send it to USA for another, or make your own?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Latest purchase. karesuando kniven hunting axe
KnivesAndStuff (YoutTube)
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