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A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels

Posted by jasonstone20 
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:44PM
Well. i don't think they believe they are wrong.. and even if they are misrepresenting information. that in itself doesn't mean their product is poor, or will suffer for it.

For Example. one of them is advertising "I am making knives by hand based on science in Switzerland. Premium heat treat, wet grinding, hand sharpening. Don't cut yourself!!"

this is all true possibly.... its not Gavko, even though its his signature line grinning smiley

but if you say that but you are not a scientist, and don't follow what that really means, and get questioned.. you might start feeling that there is an attack on you. that if you agree with the person contradicting you, your fans will think you are the idiot... people are scared of being called an idiot when money is involved.

its not that the product is bad.. its just that saying like the above that what you do is based on science.. its a marketing tool.. its all marketing. even if that marketing is just to get a patreon account to pay for your hobby and beer.


look at Instagram.. its not about being right, being smart or being anything. its about being paid to have followers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:48PM
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CliffStamp
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jasonstone20
.... and do not directly challenge his work...

Now to be obvious, a lot of my interactions are critical, that's just my background, but it isn't personal, it is just noting facts/clarifications :

[www.youtube.com]

I am not blocked there yet, and I have watched a bunch of his videos and my comments are similar to what you see there.

I will typically correct :

-historical issues
-terminology problems
-conclusions which are not supported by the data
-misattribution

Yes, Cliff, I am familiar with you approach, and I don't have an issue with that. I really approve of it, and think it is much needed. I have never seen you go out of your way to hurt someone's feelings. You put things the best way possible to be open to, and start a discussion. My problem is with people that have a problem with that. The approach I use is different, and definitely not as effective as your approach, but it works for me. I tend to try and find common ground that I can relate to the person with, feel them out to see how they respond to praise, neutral, and critical comments. If I find that they are sensitive to critical comments, I tend not to be critical. Instead, I explain what works for me, and maybe they might want to try a technique or idea to see how it suits them. That being said, if I see they are overly respondent to praise, I try not to give that much praise, as it can reward negative behavior. I just wish we all could combine out efforts and pursue knowledge, wisdom, and information. But like I said before, that is me being Pollyanna.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 06:06PM
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Jason
f I find that they are sensitive to critical comments, I tend not to be critical. Instead, I explain what works for me, and maybe they might want to try a technique or idea to see how it suits them. That being said, if I see they are overly respondent to praise, I try not to give that much praise, as it can reward negative behavior. I just wish we all could combine out efforts and pursue knowledge, wisdom, and information. But like I said before, that is me being Pollyanna.

Sounds like you might take well to dog Training grinning smiley

there is nothing reasonable with what you wish to achieve Jason. it's a nice idea.
the problem is work. to do real work, takes time, and investment.

need to find some people doing PhD and get them interested in the finer points of knives and let them rip.

i can assure you that no matter what your intentions when you put yourself out there on youtube.. anything perceived as criticism can instantly trigger you. it just happens. what happens next depends on the tone of the person writing the comments, and if what they are asked is relevant to you to take your time to reply or investigate.many a war has been fought over what was believed to be right vs what was known to be right

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 06:13PM
cKc,
One of the problems I think is Social Media. It amplifies, speeds up, and spreads the shilling, echo chamber, dogma and demagoguery more than the forums, knife shows, and knife magazines. It reminds me of the saying, "A lie goes halfway around the world before the truth even laces up it's shoes"

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 06:16PM
I am really starting to appreciate the decision of Landes and Kashen to limit their exposure to forums and Social Media. That makes what Cliff does even more amazing and needed.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 06:55PM
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Cliff Stamp
It takes a lot of work to KNOW something, it takes no work at all to be SURE of something.

Well that is a huge issue. Especially if you don't want to use the Scientific Method. It is very hard to actually know something. There is a philosophical side to Science, and I mean in approach, not discipline. If you reject science, then you don't have to worry about any of this, you can say what you want, do what you want, no big deal. This is a sad state of affairs. Another thing is that a lot of research has been already done in this field: England, Germany, Japan, and the USA. That should be a starting point, instead of have to convince people of sound methods in the first place, or re-inventing the wheel with procedures, techniques, and theories that are already proven to work in industry.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 09:00PM
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CliffStamp
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cKc
I don't think Steve has any real interest in talking about things at the level Cliff does.

As he blocked me on YouTube, that's not really a theory as it is just evidenced reality.
Hi,
Maybe favorited comments are different?

These two are still up in HRC DOESN'T MATTER... AND THE WORLD IS FLAT - YouTube
"❤ by SuperSteel Steve"
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

also visible comments here
Critics, Apologists, and Ferrum Forge - Transparent Knives
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 09:18PM
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jasonstone20

If you reject science, then you don't have to worry about any of this, you can say what you want, do what you want, no big deal.

I am not sure, if you reject science it just means you are deciding to interact with the world in a way in which you won't know anything. I mean you can say what you want, but you are just making random statements.

Now of course not everything has to be about knowing things, maybe you just like to look at pretty things, that's the majority of Instagram accounts, if that makes you happy then do that.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 09:22PM
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jasonstone20
. My problem is with people that have a problem with that.

You have to live your own life, and interact with people in a way that makes you happy and live a meaningful life. At the end of the day, your position on the influence of 1 HRC point on the edge holding of a steel hopefully isn't what is on your Tombstone.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 09:24PM
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ShaperAndMower

[comments]

Thanks, can you see comments here :

[www.youtube.com]

The comments went from awhile as I referenced them in discussions and as soon as I logged out they went away. A number of people have been talking about the blocking, maybe they reversed it - maybe the entire thing is YT being YT.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 09:32PM
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CliffStamp
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ShaperAndMower

[comments]

Thanks, can you see comments here :

[www.youtube.com]

The comments went from awhile as I referenced them in discussions and as soon as I logged out they went away. A number of people have been talking about the blocking, maybe they reversed it - maybe the entire thing is YT being YT.

For me it happened this way:

By default yt comments are shown by most popular first/up.
Unless uploader of the vid wont change that setting.
If there are many comments it appears that yt auto-hide the less popular ones anyhow they would rate it..
When I changed to show by the newest my comment appeared.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 09:39PM
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CliffStamp
If you watch that you will see Feynman struggle to answer what appears to be a simple question, and the point he tries to get across is that when you answer a question it is going to depend really on what you want to know, the details.

If you ask me a simple question, "what sharpening stone should I buy", well I have to think about :

...

It takes a lot of work to KNOW something, it takes no work at all to be SURE of something.

ha, was this from the interview in which the reporter asked something along the lines "can you explain magnetism?"

depending on the asker this can be answered on a macroscopic level to maxwell to four momentums and further beyond with questions for which the standard model has no definitive answer.


IMO its futile to defend factually correct information in a hobby that is mainly driven by emotion, profit and materialism while I am very happy that you do so as I learned a lot. I bet that most of the time the choice of cutting materials in an industrial environment will be chosen much more sensible in respect to their needs.

Who is going to ask their lawyer how to repair a car engine? Yet in the knife hobby its fine to get absolute answers from anyone about material properties sans caveats.

Reminds me a lot of other hobbies where people would spend massive amounts of time on forums, social media instead of reading a book/manual which would have answered a lot more sans the misinformation.


EDIT: missed the link, it was that interview! very memorable



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2020 09:40PM by Seikogi.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 09:59PM
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CliffStamp
Quote
jasonstone20
. My problem is with people that have a problem with that.

You have to live your own life, and interact with people in a way that makes you happy and live a meaningful life. At the end of the day, your position on the influence of 1 HRC point on the edge holding of a steel hopefully isn't what is on your Tombstone.

You are absolutely right, it is important to keep things in perspective. There are principles involved, along with who I spend my time talking to and refer others to, so these types of issues are just things I take notice of, so I can distance myself from people who behave in that fashion. I really don't have time for it.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 10:08PM
Seikogi,
Yes, for most people it is just a hobby. Personally, I believe that you should be principled and on your best behavior, no matter if you are getting paid for it or not. Also, I feel that if something is worth doing, you should try and do it the best you can, with an open mind, and being respectful to others. I can understand if someone is just a casual knife person, I don't have an issue with that. My problem is the egotism, 'expertitist', and negative energy/behavior/conversations that take place. Especially online. People say things online and behave in ways that they would never in person, because there would be immediate consequences. Take for instance when I went to Blade Show West in 2018. Everyone I met, vendor, knife maker, and show attendee were all nice, respectful, and fun to be around. Life is too short to deal with the nonsense of adults behaving poorly. The video of me at the show is on Mike Emler's YouTube channel last I checked. If I remember correctly, it is in three parts, about 2 hours long each part.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 10:55PM
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jasonstone20
Life is too short to deal with the nonsense of adults behaving poorly.

+1 !

While I agree that people online are the "loudest" I have (unfortunately) met enough people who wouldn't behave much better in person. Perhaps not as vulgar as in front of the keyboard but certainly as indoctrinated.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 11:13PM
Seikogi,
Yeah, I hear you. It is the Decline of Western Civilization.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 11:39PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Thanks, can you see comments here :

[www.youtube.com]

The comments went from awhile as I referenced them in discussions and as soon as I logged out they went away. A number of people have been talking about the blocking, maybe they reversed it - maybe the entire thing is YT being YT.
Hi
No I cannot see any comments from you on that KKnives Switzerland video

FWIW i use desktop browser, and then sort by newest ... the sorting option seems to have disappeared from mobile version (youtube nonsense )

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2020 11:43PM by ShaperAndMower.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 12:08AM
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jasonstone20


You are absolutely right, it is important to keep things in perspective.

It is easy to get caught up in things, at the end of the day try to keep in mind what we are talking about. If people want to learn it is hard work, and there are people who will help them, but people don't know how much effort it takes.

When Knives Switzerland put up that Instagram post showing what he claimed was extreme hardness loss on a Bark River M4 I was skeptical :

-he was not testing on flats
-no confirmation from anyone else to check the measurements
-no confirmation from himself that another knife the same geometry tested the same way would be "ok"
-no interaction with the maker

I re-checked material Roman had sent me years back, I emailed Larrin (as he cited a page from Larrin as evidence for his conclusion), I called Bark River to talk to Stewart to talk about their grinding practices, and I did a light search on grinding of HSS to see how you could get that kind of hardness loss which extended through the body of the knife. After all of that - I made a couple of posts and recommended a few further tests.

Now IF :

-he used the same test methods on a knife he hardened and it had the same shape and it was ok
-another person confirmed his readings

I would then say ok, it seems there may be a problem, but I am still skeptical you can hand grind M4 and get a huge draw (~10 points, taking into account the inside will be softer than the outside which will air quench). The next step would be take a M4 blade just get a piece of it, and put your hand on it, and see if you can do that. If you can, then I think there is reasonable evidence to say there may be a problem.

If this seems like a lot of work - well do you want to know things? That's what it takes.
cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 02:43AM
It looks like they are restored. they were gone before, but the other one is still blocked.

note, I also always sort to newest first.. I'm not interested in popular commentary, just historical accuracy. i understand why they do it when some videos have 100.,000 comments.. but its still annoying
Quote
ShaperAndMower
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
cKc
I don't think Steve has any real interest in talking about things at the level Cliff does.

As he blocked me on YouTube, that's not really a theory as it is just evidenced reality.
Hi,
Maybe favorited comments are different?

These two are still up in HRC DOESN'T MATTER... AND THE WORLD IS FLAT - YouTube
"❤ by SuperSteel Steve"
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

also visible comments here
Critics, Apologists, and Ferrum Forge - Transparent Knives
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2020 02:58AM by cKc.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 03:08AM
Cliff,
This type of misinformation can lead to a cyclical issue, were someone says there is an issue when there is not, or at least it can't be verified, and then the makers or production knife companies have to deal with the mess, and are hesitant when people are doing their own work and research. This is one of the reasons I find it is important, not just for the fun sake of learning, but so you also don't cause harm to others while doing work and research. Like the other day on Instagram with the broken tip of the knife in ZDP-189, to be fair to all parties, I felt they should be communicating.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 03:10AM
cKc,
So is the comment thing worked out? I am going to check too, but can someone else take a look also?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 03:23AM
Well, I can see why Cliff might have thought he was blocked on those channels, he didn't exactly get a warm reception, and his arguments made were summarily dismissed off hand. That whole group of guys are toxic, if you ask me.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 03:35AM
He didn't think he was blocked. he was blocked. now on Steves channel he is not. at the time of writing the comment, all his commentary had been removed.

I am the one that alerted cliff he was blocked because he sent me a direct link to a comment and it was not there, so I told him to log off and see if he could see his own comments, which led to him checking each of the channels to see who had blocked him.

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jasonstone20
Well, I can see why Cliff might have thought he was blocked on those channels, he didn't exactly get a warm reception, and his arguments made were summarily dismissed off hand. That whole group of guys are toxic, if you ask me.

it could be that if they follow these threads as many do, or someone mentioned it.. maybe he realized blocking was not the right call.
it could be that they all did a group block, then some realized that wasn't a good idea and reversed it. its not like I'm gonna keep checking to see if I'm still blocked etc..

its playing out like a high school drama and that's all..


they are acting like providers of knowledge when they are providers of speculation.
there is fake news everywhere.. we should get used to it.
They don't have any ill intent. they are just getting really into what they are doing, and because the results marry up with their expectations they are really locked into their point of view. they know what they know, and that's that.

I'm sure many of my videos where I talked about things if people choose to could be torn apart on a technicality as I am pretty vague on details sometimes or i'd focus on the details of interest to me. its a bit like a lawyer making their client look good by focusing on the good bits and leaving out the bits that are not relevant to their point.

if they were a bunch of enthusiasts getting together for a weekly drinkup and knifefest and chatting like this at a bar, no one would give it a 2nd thought.. but by doing it on youtube, and publically calling out others that they disagree with, they open themselves to peer review that they don't seem to really want.

the problem is that they are not speculating. they are publically stating things as facts that are irrefutable. and this is where the problem lies.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 04:15AM
Alternative comments viewer
https://www.youtubextras.com/watch?v=Z-2861dtYus
still uses javascript to load them, but no readmore loadmore clicking required

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 05:05AM
cKc,
Well I really do not like that behavior. I have invited those guys to sign up and talk about things here, were they could not only document there work, but get help with it. Also you get to learn stuff. I must just be really dense, I don't get this type of behavior or attitude at all. I have seen a lot of it over the years. I wish grown adults would act like grown adults.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 05:30AM
Quote
jasonstone20
cKc,
Well I really do not like that behavior. I have invited those guys to sign up and talk about things here, were they could not only document there work, but get help with it. Also you get to learn stuff. I must just be really dense, I don't get this type of behavior or attitude at all. I have seen a lot of it over the years. I wish grown adults would act like grown adults.

Sure, but from their perspective, they can be thinking.. why it's this dude telling us to join their forum? they already have a group they are happy with which has thousands of users/followers. They are already comfortable in the knowledge they have and the source of that knowledge.. they can be thinking.. what do we have to gain by joining your forum and being criticized or asked to do something different from what they are doing.

they are already documenting their work to the level they want, and they are already getting help with it from each other. While you might think its reasonable that here they could get great benefits.. that doesn't mean they think so.

out of context, but it could be like a 7th day Adventist asking a few Catholics to come visit their church and get help with their "misunderstandings"

invite these guys to the woodshed for a talk.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 05:32AM
When Chronologically was the invite offered?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 05:35AM
cKc,
Last summer, around July-August.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 05:40AM
Quote
cKc
Quote
jasonstone20
cKc,
Well I really do not like that behavior. I have invited those guys to sign up and talk about things here, were they could not only document there work, but get help with it. Also you get to learn stuff. I must just be really dense, I don't get this type of behavior or attitude at all. I have seen a lot of it over the years. I wish grown adults would act like grown adults.

Sure, but from their perspective, they can be thinking.. why it's this dude telling us to join their forum? they already have a group they are happy with which has thousands of users/followers. They are already comfortable in the knowledge they have and the source of that knowledge.. they can be thinking.. what do we have to gain by joining your forum and being criticized or asked to do something different from what they are doing.

they are already documenting their work to the level they want, and they are already getting help with it from each other. While you might think its reasonable that here they could get great benefits.. that doesn't mean they think so.

out of context, but it could be like a 7th day Adventist asking a few Catholics to come visit their church and get help with their "misunderstandings"

invite these guys to the woodshed for a talk.

That make sense, but that is not what they were talking. They talked like they wanted to do work, research and learn, instead of just barely touching the tip of the iceberg. I had talked with many of them over the last two years, with lots of DM's. Everything feel apart after the Michael Christy/SuperSteelSteve blow up. There was a lot of drama with people outside that group before that, in a disrespectful and abusive manner. Then comments started getting deleted, etc., and I stopped talking with them.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 18, 2020 12:28PM
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jasonstone20
Everything feel apart after the Michael Christy/SuperSteelSteve blow up.

Is that documented anywhere? Michael is a fairly straightforward guy, and fairly skilled at freehand sharpening.