Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 14, 2020 07:31PM
"My favorite steels based on use"

(proceeds to show a bunch of knives which look NIB )

"I have been beating on this knife."

(knife has no wear on the coating, notes the edge has never been sharpened)

Won't use S110V, etc. , m390 is too chippy.

(shows one of his top steels, Maxamet - again notes he has never sharped it but is confident to rate it)

Getting to the top, one of his favorite of his favorite "user" knives

(shows a Medford)

/thread
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 14, 2020 08:29PM
Quote
cKc
there is a simple solution to this. buy the knives and do the reviews yourself grinning smiley grinning smiley grinning smiley become and influencer

Quote
JSCT
What an idea

I appreciate the suggestion, but I really am not qualified to give a decent evaluation of a knife to anyone but my own person. Plus, there are not that many knives I have ran across I didn't like.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 14, 2020 08:31PM
Cliff,
Yeah, I can't watch much more of these videos. I thought after a while things might improve, but I really don't think people want a realistic viewpoint of knives and steels. They want a fantasy.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 14, 2020 11:13PM
Quote
CliffStamp
"My favorite steels based on use"

(proceeds to show a bunch of knives which look NIB )

"I have been beating on this knife."

(knife has no wear on the coating, notes the edge has never been sharpened)

Won't use S110V, etc. , m390 is too chippy.

(shows one of his top steels, Maxamet - again notes he has never sharped it but is confident to rate it)

Getting to the top, one of his favorite of his favorite "user" knives

(shows a Medford)

/thread

Like his mind is trapped in the matrix..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 14, 2020 11:59PM
Quote
jasonstone20
... but I really am not qualified to give a decent evaluation of a knife to anyone but my own person.

That's exactly what makes someone qualified to do it.

(in general, the people supremely confident in their own expertise are usually the people least informative to listen to)
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 01:27AM
I don't know if it's that I've gotten older and wiser, or if my tolerance for baloney has gotten lower.

The majority of super steels aren't cutlery steels. They are intended to have high performance for their intended industrial applications. Those intended applications aren't in thinly ground pocket knives, and it sure as hell isn't in jewelry. The love of muh supersteels has far more to do with fantasy and playing expert than anything else. It gives you something to brag about on forums and praise the wisdom and knowledge of supposedly metallurgy gods.

"When a man picks up a knife, there's an old memory from the collective unconscious that surfaces. A knife is an atavistic experience. It was man's first tool and weapon. Man was chipping flint into cutting edges before he invented the wheel. No matter how sophisticated we become, a knife takes us back to the cave." - Bob Loveless

I've always appreciated that quote. Knives, to people that appreciate them, are a totem. The knives that I have a deep attachment to, I am attached to due to the experiences attached to them. That weird link has nothing to do with the steel or technical specs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 01:40AM
Bill,
I just picked up a knife that I like the design of, even though it was in a steel I normally wouldn't buy. Steel is the last thing I think about when selecting a knife. But I figured if the knife was in that steel I normally wouldn't have selected, it would give me a chance to compare a high carbide steel in a great design, to see if I notice a difference. Usually, I cannot tell the difference in knife steels in use, but I can tell a difference in sharpening. I have sharpened high carbide steels before, but they were not my knives, so I couldn't really experiment like I wanted to.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 04:17AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Quote
cKc
there is a simple solution to this. buy the knives and do the reviews yourself grinning smiley grinning smiley grinning smiley become and influencer

Quote
JSCT
What an idea

I appreciate the suggestion, but I really am not qualified to give a decent evaluation of a knife to anyone but my own person. Plus, there are not that many knives I have ran across I didn't like.

Neither are most of the people you are watching on youtube, and there lies your dilemma.. smiling smiley you gotta take them for what they are, critique them etc.. but sadly you can't demand more from them in terms of quality or feedback.. they are doing what the views request, which is candy

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 04:17AM
Knife that won’t chip, won’t roll? -- [forum.spyderco.com] 2 pages

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2020 11:53PM by jasonstone20.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 04:29AM
cKc,
Yes, that is true. I just find it very difficult to understand that someone who would put so much energy and money into something would at least have a basic understanding of what in the world you are talking about. All the information is readily out there, for free. You could download Verehoven's book as a .pdf for quite some time. I have only read half of it, and skimmed the rest, but even that much told me I was not knowledgeable enough to discuss the attributes of one steel vs another, other than simple distinctions like stainless vs carbon, PM vs ingot. Not only that, but I haven't used that many types of steels. I can't imagine talking about a steel if I having used and sharpened it, and that only really applies to that knife. So it really bothers me when I see fluff, and other people repeating that fluff, and acting like they are knowledgeable enough to make suggestions to anyone else. Especially when they don't know how that person uses a knife, what they are cutting, the environment they are using the knife in. Maybe with these crowds it doesn't matter, since the knives are probably not used that much anyway.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 05:04AM
How many car collectors are mechanics? some yes. all, not by a longshot. the Arabs with the money and all the best cars in the world.. def not.

status symbol, enjoyable aesthetic.
the belief that you have something elite, without knowing how to really use it

these are not new concepts.

they will know the tires, the fuel, the horse power of the engine, how many cylinders it runs on. gears etc.. they know the shallow stuff.. and rely one someone simply telling them "its better"

if you watch a collectors video wanting to get technical info, its the wrong video.
if you wonder why all the users of knives with real info don't have most of those knives, maybe there is a good reason.

real knife work is mundane. not going to get views.. not going to be worth doing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 12:00PM
cKc,
Yeah, but it is like they are talking tires for cars, but getting it completely backwards. That is what I think they are doing with steels. The basic properties of a steel isn't technical info if you ask me. They are like car collectors that never drive their cars.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 12:53PM
Here is my minimum standard for a knife review: Nutnfancy table-top style, with footage of actual use:
[www.youtube.com]




No claims about the steel, no edge retention dogma.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 02:15PM
Quote
Larrin Thomas
Steel choice does not predict knife performance. The best steel with the ultimate heat treatment will still cut poorly with thick edge geometry. And an ultimate steel with ultimate edge geometry and ultimate heat treatment will not fix an uncomfortable handle.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 02:38PM
As a contrast, look at how Larrin Thomas evaluated steel: [knifesteelnerds.com] Now I understand this is his educational background and profession, but let's put that to the side for now, along with the detail he goes into. What I am focusing on is the attributes he is looking at:
Quote
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/20/how-to-pick-the-best-steel-for-every-knife/
Ease in forging
Ease in finishing
Grindability
Ease in heat treatment
Ease in sharpening
Cost
Availability
Toughness
Edge Retention
Corrosion Resistance
Hardness Potential

Those attributes are for knife making, but you can use a few of them for knife use and get a decent picture of what you would want in a knife for a particular use or purpose:

Ease in sharpening
Cost
Availability
Toughness
Edge Retention
Corrosion Resistance

You will even here some or all of these terms used, but they aren't being used correctly, or evaluated from actual use. For the car analogy, what if I said my Lamborghini Aventador was the greatest off road vehicle because it has a high top speed, all wheel drive, and traction control? This is what these guys are doing when it comes to steels. Admittedly, I don't know a lot about steels for knives, but I know when I here shilling, misinformation, and knife industry propaganda about knife steel. Example: 420J2 is a 'bad' steel. Wrong. 8Cr13MoV is 'cheap Chinese junk that can't hold an edge'. Wrong. There is just so much said that is wrong it is frustrating, and then when people don't respond to comments, delete comments, or are just close minded, it starts to get silly. Especially when they have been doing something for years.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 03:48PM
So in this case the review is really reviewing the knife design, rather than the steel or anything else except for a few caveats like firestriking ability..

because in a review like that.. you could make the knife out of almost any steel and any HT appropriate for the steel and it should do all those things. there was no particular thing there that might press one steel above another except maybe the stabbing into wood if you hit something bad.

Quote
jasonstone20
Here is my minimum standard for a knife review: Nutnfancy table-top style, with footage of actual use:
[www.youtube.com]




No claims about the steel, no edge retention dogma.

to go back to the cars, what you are looking for is a driving review and road handling, without needing to know what its made of or high tech features.

whereas others are interested in the paint job, the rims, the spoilers, the gear shaft design etc.

just different purpose reviews.

where somepeople might care about all of the above.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 04:45PM
Quote
jasonstone20
I just find it very difficult to understand that someone who would put so much energy and money into something would at least have a basic understanding of what in the world you are talking about.

They think they do. Here is a quote :

"Harder materials have more wear resistance than softer materials!"

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qPg5YKjsvQ&t=1418s)

Now Steve is 100% convinced of that, and he makes an argument for it. There is no doubt in his mind this is true and he knows it, and he won't hesitate to tell everyone, even professionals - but the reality is he is simply wrong.

D2 has much higher abrasive wear resistance than 1095, even if 1095 is significantly harder. This is just a materials fact you can look up. There are materials which are designed to have very low adhesive wear rate (as they are very resistant to galling) even than harder materials. This is very specific to what they are wearing against (high Cr stainless steels will gall fast against high Cr materials). Diamond, even though it is very hard isn't recommended in industry to grind high carbon materials (like steels) because of the rapid wear you can get due to interactions between the Carbon in the diamond and carbon in the material being cut.

What is happening here? Well Steve noticed something, maybe a knife which is harder than another and performed better in some test and he concluded the hardness was the result, then he found some materials fact which supported that and from that he made a huge leap in generalization because he doesn't know the details. Here is the harsh reality, there is a reason why it takes ~4/5 years or so to become a professional at something like metallurgy and why they don't get there by reading blogs and watching YT videos. It takes a long time even for you to be able to know enough to realize IF you know something or not.

I teach for a living, and I can tell you ALL the time someone will come into me I will ask them a few questions, they will think they know something and I give them a basic exam and they fail it, even being 100% confident they knew it. It takes a lot of work to know something, and you have to be always skeptical and be open to questions because the minute you stop is the same minute you start not knowing and you are down the path of misinformation.

I have to stop reading those Spyderco threads :

"What you're looking for is a very average steel with a balance of hardness and edge stability."

Nope, what he asked for has nothing to do with edge stability at all.

I like all the recommendations of M4 and other super high carbide steels for chip resistance. Go ask any materials specialist for a chip resistant blade material and see if you can find one who recommends M4. It would be like suggesting L6 for a corrosion resistant material.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2020 07:11PM by CliffStamp.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 05:10PM
Cliff,
This is what I am talking about. It is like the Dunning-Kruger Effect applied to knives.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 06:21PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Cliff,
This is what I am talking about. It is like the Dunning-Kruger Effect applied to knives.

reminds me of something I saw on instagram

instagram

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 11:16PM
[forum.spyderco.com]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 11:28PM
[forum.spyderco.com] (8 pages)

How can you evaluate a knife steel? The more I read, and the more I learn, I am thinking that without a proper procedure, and maybe even a good amount of resources, that it isn't an easy thing to do. I can tell how a knife does on the stones, but translating that to anything else but how the knife sharpens I have no idea how to do. Even the knife sharpening is just my subjective opinion, and my view of how the steel sharpens can change, depending on the technique and stones used.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 11:36PM
Here is another thread asking for a comparison of two steels:
How do S110V and ZDP-189 Compare? -- [forum.spyderco.com] 1 page

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2020 11:51PM by jasonstone20.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 11:50PM
Strongest EDC Steel? -- [forum.spyderco.com] 3 pages

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 15, 2020 11:59PM
Quote
jasonstone20


How can you evaluate a knife steel?

With a lot of work, and knowing there is a lot of uncertainty, and you are only looking at one sample, and very carefully gauging your conclusions with a lot of caveats.

As an aside, I would be skeptical of evaluating carbide size and such from sharpening for a lot of reasons. I have done that hair cutting thing in the past, I never used anything sub-micron, I did it in ~2000's off of regular stones, no strops. It used to be a big selling point in the 90's a bunch of ABS guys used to do it, they could even do it off of India stone's which leave very coarse finishes, far bigger than any carbide even in steels like D2. I never got that far, I was just curious if I could do it off a DMT plate, I used a worn 600 (it isn't like I picked a worn 600, I just used my 600 a lot so it was worn). It wasn't that hard, I found push cutting newsprint harder. About the hardest trick/show was push cutting newsprint ~3" from the point of being held, again done with a 600 DMT finish.

As a point of contention :

"The edges were both sharp and crisp off the stone, the REX 45 was noticably less aggressive. It took a very keen edge but had less bite compared to the M4. This tells me that more of the carbides in the REX 45 are finer then M4 and used to promote the higher hardness by strengthening the grains of the matrix."

The carbides that precipitate in secondary hardening are very small, if REX 45 just had those, the wear resistance would be very small as they are so small as to not even significantly impact wear resistance (because the abrasive wear particles would be so much larger).

It could be that REX 45 has a smaller primary carbide volume, but I would be skeptical of someone being able to rank that by sharpening, if they could it would be a decently impressive skill - do a blind test to find out.

As another point :



The carbides in CPM-M4 are way bigger than a micron even because of the aggregates, based on that picture, there are aggregates > 5 microns in size. I am not sure if the polish/abrasive you are using is less than that, why it would leave a different finish on a steel with a finer aggregate unless they are getting torn out. It is possible, but isn't immediately obvious why that would happen.

I am also skeptical of people who claim steels with high carbide have higher "bite" at a given polish. I would wonder are they not even seeing anything more than the lower grindability leaving coarse scratches not removed. I know from what I have done, nothing had any significant "bite" if by that you meant slicing aggression once the finish was much beyond 600 DMT.

You take something like 420J2 with an x-coarse DMT finish and it has much better edge retention slicing rope than CPM10V with an xx-f DMT plate finish. You can even see why if you just look at the edged under low magnification (like ~50X or so). The really coarse finish literally has to wear away 100+ times as much steel and the wear resistance of no steel is 100 times that of 420J2, hence winner 420J2.

If you do something silly and take the 420J2 down to a really low angle and a really low finish, like beyond that of x-coarse dmt, it doesn't even act like the other knife at all, it acts like some kind of serrated knife and the edge retention is essentially infinite as you will get bored doing rope cutting, and/or just damage the knife at some point by hitting a staple as not you literally need to wear away a visible fraction of mm of steel.

That's why a long time ago I suggested IF you really wanted to maximize edge retention :

-get a knife you are not afraid to use up
-maybe more than one
-sharpen them to the minimal angle they can take in use
-put a really coarse edge on it (most people draw cut, that's what you have the blade for)

As for the last part, Boye had a great comment on that which was something like - if you are push cutting you basically only need an inch of blade. This is why if you watch him cutting he uses the full blade :

[www.youtube.com]

As an aside, for anyone who thinks that knife is cutting poorly, Boye uses rigging lines, they are not easy to cut. I am not saying that knife is the best cutting knife, but make sure you cut that exact line before you just that knife he is using.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 16, 2020 12:04AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Strongest EDC Steel? -- [forum.spyderco.com] 3 pages

"Strongest" is something that can actually be tested at least for certain criteria like outright breaking strength and edge strength/stability. H1 for example is practically unbreakable from what I've seen, you're more likely to rip the pivot/stop pins out of the handle before the blade breaks."

Strongest is an actual materials term, there are a number of tests of strength (tensile, bend etc.) normally the material is subjected to a load until it bend until some point is reacted (direct failure, i.e. the material separates, or some degree of plastic deformation). In none of those would H1 be the strongest. The strongest steels would be things like 121REX, however you would likely still not want to use them for prying because they are brittle and subject to extreme failures with localized stress points (contact failures). Some of the very high strength steels are even in fact hard to measure normal strength tests on because you can break them in the initial clamping, or they break there vs where the other steels will so they break long before their actually strength is reached because they can't take the contact pressures.

The danger here is when people ask for "strength" in some kind of lay sense, which translates loosely to something like "difficult to break". Like S7 in a knife would be harder to break than 10V, but the strength of 10V in a materials sense is higher, there are just other reasons why S7 would be harder to break.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 16, 2020 01:13AM
Quote
Cliff Stamp
I have done that hair cutting thing in the past

Did you note any practical application of this level of sharpness?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 16, 2020 03:15AM
Quote
Cliff
but isn't immediately obvious why that would happen

easiest assumption to make if its not tearout would be that they are going up grits, but have not really checked that the previous grit was complete and even, so they are just polishing the flaws, rather than refining the apex.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 16, 2020 03:32AM
Cliff, cKc:
Carbide tearout in sharpening topic keeps coming up. I get carbide tearout it use, and there was thread here about carbide tearout in sharpening, depending on the coarseness or fineness of the grit, and the type of abrasive used. If I recall correctly, Cliff had said that carbide tearout in sharpening was most likely a rare event (in sharpening). This is a few years ago, I am going to see what I can dig up on the topic. This was one of the topics SuperSteelSteve and Michael Christy. Not saying that carbide tearout can't happen in sharpening, I am just looking for clarification.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 16, 2020 03:35AM
Ok, found it: [www.cliffstamp.com]

Quote
Cliff Stamp
"If you sharpen them using standard abrasives you'll get the steel sharp, but will have torn the carbides out of the edge and so you're not getting any benefit from them and your edge won't hold any longer than a low-alloy steel would."

Ref : [www.bladeforums.com]

This simply isn't true.

I thought this way for awhile, in fact if you go back a long time ago you might even find posts where I said it. It sounds reasonable after all. But when I did some experiments I found it simply isn't true. If you compare 10V on some high wear task and you sharpen it with a normal India stone it doesn't behave like it had no vanadium carbide.

Why isn't it this way? Well for one thing, the interaction between carbide and abrasive is not so simple as if the abrasive is softer it can't cut the carbide so it tears it out. If the abrasive for example is larger than the carbide it doesn't much care if the carbide is harder, it doesn't really see it that much and vanadium carbide is very small, ~1 micron (up to ~5-10 in very high carbide steels). It just cut the steel and ploughs out the carbide along with it. It gets worn by all the scraping of the carbide and it wears the carbide but these are small secondary effects.

Now if you get the abrasive and carbide the same size you do get carbide/abrasive direct effects, but it isn't even then a guarantee that the carbide will get tore out, it could just wear down a little and/or tear out the abrasive or just wear it right down. This is why India stones get very smooth very fast if you try to use them on 10V class steels, you spend as much time conditioning as you do sharpening.


===

Experiment without theory can be inefficient.

However theory without Experiment is pretty much useless.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 16, 2020 03:41AM
Yeah, that's the thing, it sounded sensible, perfectly sensible, then I did the experiment, and reality was different, so you admit you were wrong and move on - if you want to live in reality. Like I said, anyone has actual evidence then I would be happy to look at it, but I don't want conjecture or a reference to something someone said one time which is a reference to a blog post which references often some guy in a big circle of references that loop back on each other. I want some actual data which was collected in a way which would generate knowledge and ideally I can do a statistical comparison on.