cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 16, 2020 04:13AM
Jason, have a read of this. he does disclaim that its only 1 testing run on 1 knife, but it is interesting nonetheless that in this sample, the carbides are holding on pretty good.
No Carbide Tearout on Maxamet

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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 16, 2020 04:26AM
cKc,
Yes, I have read that, and I just looked over it again because you found it to be the source of two images Cliff had looked at in another thread. That is why I brought up the issue about carbide tearout in use vs carbide tearout in sharpening, I wanted to understand what we were talking about, how common it was, and should it be something to be watchful of. Also, it makes me wonder if the edge that has been used, damaged and fatigued will have issues with carbide tearout in sharpening, compared to an edge that has had the fatigued/damaged metal removed.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 16, 2020 04:33AM
[www.youtube.com]




"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 12:27AM
I can't find it, but Larrin Thomas showed that the images that Todd Simpson/Science of Sharp did on Maxamet and carbide tearout, did in fact show that carbide tearout happened. He highlight an outline of a carbide that was missing from the apex in the SEM image. What I am trying to figure out is when you guys(Kyley and Cliff) are talking about carbide tearout with sharpening, are you referencing a rare or common phenomena? Or is it just in a hypothetical manner?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 03:14AM
I dont think i have ever really discussed the nature of carbide tearout in the process of sharpening a knife.
i have never experienced it, or never been able to see it occur at a level where I would know it is happening..

no matter what steels I sharpen, I typically cannot tell the difference in edge quality between one steel or another once I have finished sharpening.

any knife I have.. once sharpened.. will feel the same assuming the same geometry and grit

maybe its the grit levels I use.. up to a green compound..

when I talk about carbide tearout etc. I'm referring more to the in-use issue, the wear of the edge, not the sharpening. if I have, quote me. i cant remember doing it (not saying I haven't though).

there also has to be care taken that sometimes its not edge burn, or bad steel on factory knife.

but when you sharpen a knife and use it for a while.. and use it on thinks like gib board, ply wood etc, and when you are done, the edge is still almost smooth to a fingernail, because the bits missing are smaller than that. its not chipped so much as it feels like super small micro serrations have been added to the knife.

this is something I would presume marries up with the concept of carbide tearout, and it just happens to only happen to me on knives like d2, s30v, elmax etc etc.

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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 03:26AM
cKc,
Maybe I misunderstood, and assumed carbide tearout in sharpening vs use. I have also only experienced it in use also. I am glad I asked.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 03:27AM
Larrin's article based on landes work, Edge Stability

Micro Chipping

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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 03:33AM
the imaging of Todd's work showing erosion of the softer material around the hard carbides leaving an edge with less support and more stuff to break off is something I have always assumed happened, but never proven like that image.

i also believe this is a good reason to never use buffing wheels on high carbide steels.. buffing wheels are excellent at removing softer stuff and leaving harder stuff in place.


this is a good example of doing it intentionally. the titanium is run on a wire buffing wheel which scoops out all the soft stuff leaving the harder chunks exposed after erosion, making an orange peel effect, which I then flame anodize.. the result is a scratch free surface because only the ultra hard materials are in contact with anything now.



this prob happens are a micro level if you are buffing steels. it also happens when you are grinding a wood handle with steel pins..

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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 03:35AM
cKc,
The mentions of carbide tearout were in another thread, I am going back to reread it now.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 03:40AM
Quote
jasonstone20
cKc,
The mentions of carbide tearout were in another thread, I am going back to reread it now.

in a blade forums post I read in regards to finding this info above Todd talks about the fact that people think of tearout like a large boulder breaking free from a chunk of concrete cement and how its not the same

I agree, but the concrete aggregate example is just an oversimplification to make it easy to understand for people.

the fact that there is just higher rater of fracture around the carbides causing them to Breakout/tearout seems reasonable to me

what I find fascinating is that Larrin showed a study that PM high carbide steels have the potential to have worse gross fracture if I read it right because the uniformity of the carbide leads to enhanced crack propagation. now that would be interesting if you took D2 and com d2 and tested that theory

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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 03:57AM
Quote
jasonstone20
What I am trying to figure out is when you guys(Kyley and Cliff) are talking about carbide tearout with sharpening, are you referencing a rare or common phenomena?

To be clear, the point I making is that the apex (and even the edge to a lesser extent), will be very variable in behavior for a number of reasons :

-steels are not homogenous (even), even in the same blade, so the same knife will vary along the blade and from one time to another
-steels vary (the same steel) from knife to knife, due to all kinds of reasons (batch composition, initial grinding, heat treatment, etc.)
-cutting varies due to many reasons, material variances, cutting/user variances

This is one of the reasons why you can see posts like :

"I have used my knife and it goes damaged doing X"

and then when you look at X it seems unreasonable, it seems minor like cutting a piece of plastic or whatever. If you have a lot of people doing it then you will get those kinds of results from time to time, just from random chance.

This is why you just need to do a LOT of work, and see the general pattern.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 12:56PM
Quote
Cliff Stamp
but I don't want conjecture or a reference to something someone said one time which is a reference to a blog post which references often some guy in a big circle of references that loop back on each other

That is just the problem. There are very few people doing actual work and research. I try very hard when someone asks me a question to say well, it depends, these are the things it might be, but at the same time, I say, look, if you really want to understand this stuff, talk to Cliff Stamp, Dr. Verehoven, Roman Landes, Larrin Thomas, JSCT, Sal Glesser, Shawn Houston, Dr. Gillesspe, Kyley Harris, Joe Calton, Jeremy McCullen, people who are doing and have done the work. A problem I see now, and you ran into it with KKnivesSwitzerland, was they take from others work like it and the ride their coat tails without really understanding how or why that conclusion was made. Then if questioned, since they haven't done the work, and only have a cursory knowledge, they then say, well, this guys said this, and he knows what he is talking about, so if you are arguing with me or asking questions, you are saying this guy, who knows what he is doing, is wrong. The interaction is completely different if you go talk to the person who actually did the work. The problem is, it is very hard to transmit that knowledge just one degree of separation with people. This is why it is awesome that so much work is that people have done is available online and in books. Plus you can contact almost anyone these days, which makes it even more amazing. Why people do not take advantage of that, I have zero clue. I myself have communicated with everyone save Dr. Verehoven and Dr. Gillesspe, and I know they are open to discussion, because I have talked to people who have talked to them. Getting around to it when you have the time, energy, and you thoughts together, well that is a different story. Roman Landes gave me a ton of actual research to look at, most of it from the early to mid 1900's. Some of it is in English, most of it is in German. Larrin Thomas told me an easy way of translating the research, but it is slow going. That reminds me, I need to get Roman Landes book, and Larrin's when it comes out.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 01:46PM
cKc,
I went back and reread the thread were Cliff mentions carbide tearout with reference to sharpening, but it was more of a 'what could happen' than a what 'is' statement:

Quote
Cliff Stamp
Consider :

[A2]



and worse [D2]



(Larrin)

Now imagine drawing a line across that, that line is the apex of your edge, consider the apex formed by :



The apex which would be the green line has big massive carbides, likely to get torn out in sharping, and if not likely torn out quickly in use. But the apex formed by the red line is mainly through well tempered martensite.

Sharpening this steel multiple times could easily get different results because of the just general inhomogeneous nature of the steel. It is likely why the guys that really like/use D2 like Dozier tend to favor coarse finishes because the grit will mask that inhomogeneity.

Kyley, I found where you mentioned carbide tearout also:

Quote
cKc
Whats the blade steel? the composition of the steel as well as the HT is going to play a huge part in what may be going on.

lots of theory could be offered, but without details and inspection they are just that.

you do a proper sharpen, and its sharp? is the sharpness holding long, or dulling quick, and then failing to strop/touchup?

you said there are some chips.. assuming you didn't cut things that you'd expect to chip the blade..
high carbide steel could be carbide tearout, rather than chipping.
could be the matrix steel is too soft allowing the carbides to tear out.
could be too brittle steel allowing it to get crisp and sharp like obsidian can, but then its fracturing.. still might feel sharp because jagged, but not in the right way to cut as the apex too wide and uneven (light reflections?) resists touch ups because the steel too damaged now.

other alternative.. too soft..
sharpens up well.. but then in use you get a complete rolling over of the edge like a burr thats folded over onto itsself.. some bits so soft might catch on cutting materal and rip out.. but the rest is now curled over and cant be touched up..


there are just too many ways a knife can be sharp with a good sharpen and then fail in the way you are describing.

not sure why it sitting unused plays any part in the issue? except unless it was not really in the condition you assumed it was when you put it down

I think what happened, is since I usually think about knives in a sharpening sense, and we were talking about sharpening at the time, I assumed carbide tearout in sharpening. I also sometimes go black and white when it comes to my thinking, that could have happened also, so I am glad I asked and looked into this more. I am not sure why it wasn't clear in the first place.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 02:17PM
yeah.. so i was referring to ways the edge might be failing.

but to be honest, I see no reason why if you are using a loaded sharpening stone etc that it might not pull out carbide if the structure around it is already weakened..

even if you consider the concept of cutting off the edge before sharpening.. how wide is that cut off area, how was it cut, and on what? that flat plateau is not clean. its prob rough, damaged, and all sorts on a high carbide steel. might even have micro fractures..

now you start taking down the bevel to an apex in a "burrless" manner.. your apex is formed from the center line of that plateau which could have induced many microfractures on the carbides that are not either pulled out by sharpening (maybe) or maybe too weak once you start cutting something .. maybe.

i can only make guesses because its not something I can test or proove.

but I can see that the removal of weak steel that might be fine on a fine grain steel "might" take off weak steel, but induce micro fracture areas in a new edge of a high carbide steel. maybe knocking off that edge would be suited better to a fine diamond stone, and light quick cutting passes to reduce the risk of it happening.




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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 02:37PM
Cliff, cKc:
Another reason I was wondering about this is because when SuperSteelSteve and Michael Christy got into the argument about abrasives, high carbide steels, and carbide tearout, both of them were quoting Cliff. Now I had gotten results that matched up with both what Steve saw and what Michael saw, and I suggested that if they really wanted to know what Cliff was talking about and why, they should ask Cliff. As far as I know, this didn't happen, as I tried to facilitate a conversation with myself, Steve, and Michael, to invistitage why we were seeing what we were seeing, and do the same test over 3-5 times, and see if we saw anything useful. This unfortunately fell flat. I really wish we could see what was going on at the edge, using a SEM, the way they put a live insect in the chamber, while the knife was being sharpened. Sort of like a functional MRI, but real-life SEM.


edited for spelling

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2020 04:21PM by jasonstone20.
cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 03:48PM
if only such tools were available easily to everyone

Quote

as I tried to facilitate a conversation with myself, Steve, and Michael, to invistitage why we were seeing what we were seeing, and do the same test over 3-5 times, and see if we saw anything useful. This unfortunately feel flat.

I'm not surprised. I don't think Steve has any real interest in talking about things at the level Cliff does. Michael prob has no interest in talking to Steve at all with the way things go between their cliques. Neither has any interest I think in doing something outside of their own wheelhouse.

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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 04:38PM
Quote
cKc
I don't think Steve has any real interest in talking about things at the level Cliff does.

As he blocked me on YouTube, that's not really a theory as it is just evidenced reality.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 04:41PM
cKc,
Well, I have found Steve open to discussion, but I get along with him, and do not directly challenge his work, since what he explained to me was he wanted to show Cliff's work in a more lay-person friendly way, without the scientific references. Michael like sharpening, and sharpening to a high sharpness with high carbide steels at 15<, something I personally find counterproductive, but more power to him, if he can do it. Plus they are his knives. I kind of have a Pollyanna-ish view that since we all are interested in knives, and part of the knife community, that we should get along. This is in part to my background growing up, along with the fact that I find discussions fruitful but drama not so much. I try to get along with everyone, even the people I really don't like.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 04:44PM
Cliff,
I have to quote myself here:

Quote
jasonstone20
since what he explained to me was he wanted to show Cliff's work in a more lay-person friendly way, without the scientific references.


since you just wrote this:

Quote
Cliff Stamp
As he blocked me on YouTube, that's not really a theory as it is just evidenced reality.

Which makes me confused about the whole situation. I find that the older I get, the less I want to interact with people, especially those who do irrational (more than the norm for a person), and contradictory/hypocritical things (again, more than normal).

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 04:57PM
Cliff,
I am not questioning whether or not Steve blocked you on YouTube. I would have liked to see your comments, as I usually learn a ton from them. I could contact Steve if you want, and see what the issue is. Also (JFYI), I was talking with JSCT and he made a comment on a YouTube channel that probably wouldn't be liked by the maker of the video, and when I went to the video, JSCT's comments were not there. I emailed JSCT, and he told me that to see his comment, you have to select 'Newest' instead of the default 'Top Comments'. Like you have said before, YouTube does weird things with comments. My YouTube channel held up a few comments from Big Brown Bear for some reason that I couldn't figure out. I had to manually approve them.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 04:59PM
Quote
jasonstone20
cKc,
Well, I have found Steve open to discussion, but I get along with him, and do not directly challenge his work, since what he explained to me was he wanted to show Cliff's work in a more lay-person friendly way, without the scientific references.

Well its always easy to get along with someone that you never disagree with.

but I'm not sure you get along with him as well as you might think, otherwise you'd be having discussions with him in the same fashion as his groups of peeps that agree with him.
Quote

This unfortunately feel flat.


His problem is simple. Dumb it down until it lacks meaning, but tell people is science. Science people disagree, and argue they are too technical.. hmm.. sounds more like its talking for the sake of views and popularity more than it is for knowledge transmission. its about feeling important. and getting patreons to help pay for a hobby and a beer.. nothing wrong with that. no one is coercing people to watch or support him. but its not a source of knowledge.

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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:03PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Cliff,
I am not questioning whether or not Steve blocked you on YouTube. I would have liked to see your comments, as I usually learn a ton from them. I could contact Steve if you want, and see what the issue is. Also (JFYI), I was talking with JSCT and he made a comment on a YouTube channel that probably wouldn't be liked by the maker of the video, and when I went to the video, JSCT's comments were not there. I emailed JSCT, and he told me that to see his comment, you have to select 'Newest' instead of the default 'Top Comments'. Like you have said before, YouTube does weird things with comments. My YouTube channel held up a few comments from Big Brown Bear for some reason that I couldn't figure out. I had to manually approve them.

Jason. its simple to see if you are blocked. if you can see your comments, but you go to the video without logging in to youtube and your comment is not there, then you are blocked. if no one else can see the comment. you are blocked. when you send a link to your comment to someone, and it goes nowhere. you are blocked grinning smiley


Quote

could contact Steve if you want, and see what the issue is.
haha.. my response would be.. who the heck cares. its his perogative. don't you think that if a person like him, who outright says on his videos "Be a man like me and pick up a phone and talk to me" and also says "I never block anyone, period"
goes ahead and blocks someone without offering to be a man and have a call, not sure why someone else contacting him would offer any value, other than excuses. he's not a kid. he can reach out to Cliff anytime.

its turning into highschool. haha

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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:14PM
Quote
cKc
"Be a man like me and pick up a phone and talk to me" and also says "I never block anyone, period"

This is why I am confused. I didn't think he would act like that, and go against what he said he was willing to do, and others are not.
Quote
cKc

its turning into highschool. haha
This is why I don't interact with that whole group of people anymore.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2020 05:16PM by jasonstone20.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:16PM
Quote
cKc
Jason. its simple to see if you are blocked. if you can see your comments, but you go to the video without logging in to youtube and your comment is not there, then you are blocked. if no one else can see the comment. you are blocked. when you send a link to your comment to someone, and it goes nowhere. you are blocked grinning smiley

Thank you, I didn't know that is all you had to do. That just makes the situation even worse. I really don't get people sometimes.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:18PM
Quote
jasonstone20

I try very hard when someone asks me a question to say well, it depends, these are the things it might be ...


Steve made a comment about how it was "obvious" that something which is harder has higher wear resistance, this kind of huge oversimplification comes from blog-science, it is when you learn by sound bytes, everything is condensed down to the extreme.

[www.youtube.com]

If you watch that you will see Feynman struggle to answer what appears to be a simple question, and the point he tries to get across is that when you answer a question it is going to depend really on what you want to know, the details.

If you ask me a simple question, "what sharpening stone should I buy", well I have to think about :

-what are you grinding, one type of steels or many
-how sharp do you want it
-will you maintain it properly
-how often will you use it
-will you be kind of hard on it
-Is money an issue
-how much sharpening do you do

I was talking to Michael Christy last night and made a comment about how I thought it was ridiculous to use those diamond stones on 1095, and then Michael laughed and noted he did that last night, and he talked about why he did.

In short, my perspective is that it is wasteful, you can cut that with an India stone, but Michael was rather - well I have the stones, they will out last me, so it isn't wasting anything.

If you have to kill a rat a 10 gauge is kind of wasteful - but - if you have a ten gauge in your hands, and the ammunition is free, and you see a rat that you have to kill - well you shoot the rat.

Quote

Why people do not take advantage of that, I have zero clue.

It takes a lot of work to KNOW something, it takes no work at all to be SURE of something.
cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:22PM
it's insidious. the goal of youtube is for no one to realize they are blocked.

so when liars say.. I don't block anyone. it's hard for anyone to know.

I don't think Steve blocked Cliff because of the comments cliff wrote on Steves channel. i think KKnives blocked cliff. they all talked about it and they all blocked cliff at the same time.. Why? clearly, because they don't want their house of cards to fall apart by letting people read commentary from someone well known to be able to provide solid information.

i mean. if you want to block someone. go ahead. who cares. but if you want to tell the world that you never block people, and that other people are not men, because they can't handle confrontation, then you block someone.. well.. how manly

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cKc
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:25PM
That video is a classic Why. Why? why?

to get patreons and views is the modern why that answers all questions

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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:31PM
Quote
Cliff Stamp
it is when you learn by sound bytes, everything is condensed down to the extreme.

Yes, this is an issue with information transfer for humans. The farther you get from the original source, the more condensed the information is. You can, of course, do things to counter this, but it doesn't happen online that often. This is why I like the policies here, especially the one where you have to cite the source material or person you got the information from. One can then look at the information in context and in whole.

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Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:34PM
Quote
jasonstone20
.... and do not directly challenge his work...

Now to be obvious, a lot of my interactions are critical, that's just my background, but it isn't personal, it is just noting facts/clarifications :

[www.youtube.com]

I am not blocked there yet, and I have watched a bunch of his videos and my comments are similar to what you see there.

I will typically correct :

-historical issues
-terminology problems
-conclusions which are not supported by the data
-misattribution



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2020 05:34PM by CliffStamp.
Re: A True Documentation And Explanation Of Knife Steels
June 17, 2020 05:39PM
Quote
cKc
clearly, because they don't want their house of cards to fall apart by letting people read commentary from someone well known to be able to provide solid information.

Also, quite a few of those guys have knife related businesses, so when money is involved, people can act unscrupulous when they normally would not. I have watched Cliff battle this since the mid 1990's, from rec.knives, KnifeForums, and BladeForums. He's taken on the opinions of a lot of the heavyweights in the knife industry, guys who own knife companies, people who write for knife magazines. This is what is even more confusing to me, is that given a financial incentive, wouldn't you want more information, and more discussion? Especially about your business, skills and product? I would think that it would be a benefit for a company or person to say, hey, we found a better way to do things, instead of suppressing information and discussion, because when that type of behavior get known, your reputation is ruined, and that is hard to recover from.

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"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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