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Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength

Posted by Ryan Nafe 
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cKc
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
April 09, 2020 07:05PM
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Ryan
But square bits like that are very common on carpentry axes
Yeah, I know, but thats so that they can act like a chisel and make planks more easily etc.. not because they penetrate well.. in the grand scheme of things maybe the difference wont be huge, but i guess it just throws me off grinning smiley

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Ryan
Well sure it is haha just because it’s very obtuse doesn’t mean it’s a splitting profile. 0.110” behind the 15 DPS edge, followed by a 7 DPS primary grind back to 0.690” thick. That’s definitely not in the same class as a splitting maul, it’s just designed to be fluid in soft woods like pine.
Ok, so when I say splitting maul, it may sound hyperbole compared to an actual maul, but not if you made the mall nice and small grinning smiley.. granted its not as thick on the spine as a maul would be, but in no way shape or form would I say that it is a profile optimal for green woods..


Perhaps my description is inaccurate. I'll try again
it suffers from the exact same problem I will say almost any production knive has that is 6mm thick, 1.5" height and goes down to a bevel that is 25dps and 0.04" thick behind that bevel. and compare that to if I make that same knife, and it will go down to 0.010 behind the edge and be about 15dps, and use the cross section increase to protect a thinner edge with proper bite, rather than an apex that increases stress to itself by going in.

Hardwood profile or softwood profile, im going to expect the apex to be in a similar condition and thickness, the difference will be how quickly the cross section expands.

Perhaps mine is worse than yours.. perhaps my expectations are higher. Chopping with the X7 to me felt like smacking it into a brick wall and getting no where in comparison to what i expect an axe to do, like the wetterlings which is also a thick profile but has a well formed apex.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
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cKc
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
April 09, 2020 07:10PM
if you look at how Cliffs fiskars cuts, I would say he reprofiled it, or I got a dud.
[www.youtube.com]

in my testing, doing that it would reverberate and bounce off the wood without getting far.. more like a demolition tool

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
April 09, 2020 07:14PM
just found Cliffs review on the fiskars and read it. not seen it before.. but he also has the wetterlings so came to a similar conclusion as me at first,, even in regards to being more like a splitting axe.. lol

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?2,230,230#msg-230


looks like he solved it in the exact fashion i just mentioned. so i guess if you put some effort into the edge, it can become a decent tool. as shipping though, i was ready to toss it in the bin (meaning give it away to someone)
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Cliff
However the performance was readily improved by removing the secondary bevel and making the grind a full convex taper which was more than half an inch wide and gradually thickened to 12/13 dps at the apex which was < 0.025" thick. With the new profile it could match the chopping ability of the Wildlife and did so at its lower weight. The edge retention also now matched the Bruks and would easily do comparison runs against other chopping tools and after 1000 or so chops would still easily be slicing paper with no visible edge damage.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
April 10, 2020 04:37AM
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CliffStamp
Note this model was discontinued but there is another model in the same general size. The newer ones also do not have the very heavy secondary edge bevels and now come ground very similar to the regrind I did six years ago...

That’s from Cliff’s review, his was the older model and not the newer X7 variant. I’ve got some initial commentary on my X7 in the sticky thread that Chum made on it, in the Shill Free Zone.

Out of the box I’d certainly agree it was less than useful simply because the paint was covering the entire edge bevel and it was also hollow instead of flat, but I’ve nearly flattened mine completely and it’s now at a straight 15 DPS edge, 0.110” thick, with a 7 DPS taper up to the full 0.690” thickness of the bit.

It’s certainly not in the same class as a Gransfors as far as utility work, using it for carving or that kind of stuff, no argument there. But it’s not too bad.


Maybe my perspective is a bit skewed because the splitting mauls I’m used to seeing haven’t been shaving sharp in about 40 years. I’m used to seeing handles with duct tape near the head to hold splits together, edges that haven’t seen so much as a quick filing since Nixon was in office, that kind of thing. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
April 10, 2020 05:03PM
Ryan,

Why don’t you go custom? This [youtu.be] , from Dulo Knives, seems to be one possibility for you. Svetlozar is a gentleman to deal with and his prices are not sky high, leather sheath included. Other possibility is giving Scott Gossman a call. His cpm-1v and Z-Tuff knives are tough as it can be and not that much rust prone (like 3v and A8mod).
cKc
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
April 10, 2020 08:24PM
with the holes in the handle and the design and steel choice it seems like the make is a Busse Homage maker.. that will definitely not break grinning smiley

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
April 10, 2020 09:50PM
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hugofeynman
Ryan,

Why don’t you go custom?

I could, but for that kind of “sharpened prybar” style of knife, it wouldn’t be worth the money for me. Just too little use for the money spent.
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
April 11, 2020 12:08PM
Ryan,
Maybe try this out. It isn't that spendy, and it might suit your needs:
[www.amazon.com]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
July 23, 2020 06:38AM
I did end up acting on the things discussed in this thread. What I ended up getting is a Fallkniven S1 with the leather sheath. The idea shifted slightly, however, leaning more towards an all-around knife that has extreme lateral strength stiffness.

I’ve been stockpiling some materials to cut up for the last few months, picked up some wood also, and have already used it quite extensively in the kitchen on various vegetables and some meats.

Once I do all the cutting work on the stockpiled materials (which will happen shortly, I’m out of storage space), cut the wood, do a full sharpening, and do some tests to check lateral stiffness and strength, I’ll make a video about it.

At the moment I’d say I’m very happy with it’s design and overall performance. So much so that I believe I’d be happy to have this as the only knife I own, if I had to get rid of all but one. Can’t say that with any kind of certainty until after the above mentioned things are done, however.
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
July 24, 2020 05:43PM
One other thing to note about Fallkniven:

The “Pro” and “X” product lines are ridiculous BS. Don’t buy them if you’re expecting a functional benefit over the standard models.

The Northern Lights series as well as their fancier wood handled models are a bit different I think, they’re more of an aesthetic change than anything else. They might well be worth the money in that sense and I don’t see anyone making claims as to their superiority in the performance department, it just seems like people appreciate the more old-school style and high fit and finish.
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
July 25, 2020 01:54AM
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Ryan Nafe
One other thing to note about Fallkniven:

The “Pro” and “X” product lines are ridiculous BS. Don’t buy them if you’re expecting a functional benefit over the standard models.

Details?
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
July 25, 2020 02:56AM
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CliffStamp
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Ryan Nafe
One other thing to note about Fallkniven:

The “Pro” and “X” product lines are ridiculous BS. Don’t buy them if you’re expecting a functional benefit over the standard models.

Details?

For the Pro Series:

- Additional stock thickness (This is actually for both the Pro and the X knives) is of dubious benefits over the standard models because (for the S1 and A1 at least) they’re already thick enough relative to their lengths so that it’s nearly impossible to break or even significantly flex them by hand. So what’s gained with the thicker blade is a mystery to me, aside from weight, less cutting ability on stiff or binding materials, and maybe a very very small increase in chopping ability.

- The compositional differences between the VG-10 and Cobalt Special steels is minute enough so that I’d expect overlap between the two in batch differences, and I highly doubt anyone could see a difference in performance without a really large amount of data. Same with their claimed Rockwell hardness of 59 and 60, respectively. That’s well within the variation from one knife to another and also within the standard calibration and accuracy specs for a machine that checks it.

- While the stainless steel guards aren’t necessarily a negative, I’m not sure how they’re necessarily a positive either. It does raise production costs, though.

For the X Series:

- The handle is now an exposed-tang design that puts your hand in direct contact with the steel, I can’t think on anything that would be positive about that.

- The primary claim that Fallkniven makes about it is that it’s stronger than the standard models and has been designed to eliminate break points in the blank. But here again I don’t see any need for this because the standard models are already so strong that I don’t think it’s really possible to break one anyway unless you’re some kind of World’s Strongest Man competitor or another crazy outlier like that. And even then I just don’t think it’s realistic.

- The guards go from being integral to the handle material to being thinner and made of steel, which is not likely to be an improvement in comfort and I also doubt there’s a real improvement in functionality unless you’re trying to parry another knife edge or something else that’s sharp enough to cut straight through the Thermorun or Kraton guards of the standard models.

- The tungsten carbide coatings, while certainly tougher (more wear resistant and more slick) than the Cerakote on the standard models, it is still going to be ground away as soon as someone does maintenance on the primary grind.





So considering all that, I see no reason to purchase either an X or a Pro for reasons of real performance differences.
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
July 25, 2020 12:20PM
Thanks, that all makes perfect sense to me, just want to avoid claims/directions without evidence is all.
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
July 25, 2020 02:49PM
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CliffStamp
Thanks, that all makes perfect sense to me, just want to avoid claims/directions without evidence is all.

Hey no worries, Cliff, that’s fair enough. It was a pretty rough condemnation I made, so to just leave it hanging without any supporting arguments wasn’t exactly the best idea.
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
July 29, 2020 08:22AM
A bit of extra energy was available after work, so I decided to do a full sharpening on the S1 for the first time.

There is a moderate recurve (visible to the naked eye but not without deliberate examination and an understanding of what you’re looking for) that was present as-boxed, and this made for a bit of difficulty with the grinding and sharpening near there. The sharpness at that last (or first) ~ .375” of the blade nearest the handle is not quite at the level of the rest of the blade. It’s slicing receipt paper at a 45 instead of push cutting it at a 45. Both of those happening at about 1.5” inches from the hold point. Face-shaving sharpness over the bulk of the edge.

Because I was doing this very quickly and not trying to be particularly careful or precise, I used the SuperStone 400 freehand (not on a table where I tend to have much better angle control) and then a few quick passes on the Sharpmaker medium rods at 20 DPS to apex it because I knew the recurve would be a problem on the DMT plate.

The sharpness is at least not terrible, some carving on pine and cutting moderate plastics (about 50 very heavy (25lb.+ ) slices into pine and the same number of cuts on a plastic water jug) showed no noticeable loss in sharpness, it was still doing the push cut at a 45, so it didn’t seem to have a significant burr.

I’m actually very pleased with how quick and simple it was to use only the SS 400 and the Sharpmaker. I’ve certainly had much worse experiences with other blade and edge designs on the first sharpening than what I’ve just had with the S1. The SS 400 had no trouble with loading when doing the primary grind work, which was nice, though I was using the nagura stone quite a lot to maintain flatness and this may have helped reduce loading as well.

With a bit more care, time, and of course practice, I don’t see how this is going to be any more difficult to deal with than my other knives. The strangest thing about the process was that I actually had to intentionally create/maintain a curvature with the grinding, where I usually try to keep the angle as consistent as possible.

I will likely do the cutting work in the condition it’s in right now, and then do another full sharpening in a more deliberate and careful manner before making the video where I’ll discuss my findings and general thoughts on the knife.

I must say, I enjoy the combination of an extremely durable edge (at 20 DPS) combined with a primary grind that still allows for deep cuts when you ramp up the forces. With low force applied it’s about like most of my other knives, nothing too special, but grip the handle tightly and really put some muscle behind the cut and it just sails through material. It’s an interesting combination, typically my knives don’t cross those two properties. They’re either durable or have high cutting ability, while the S1 has both.
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 01, 2020 01:40PM
Falkniven is an odd outfit that effectively sells upgraded Cold Steel products and markets very heavily off of woo. That said, I remember the H1 being in a passaround once, it was a very nicely built and tough knife. Never felt any trepidation in prying apart a pallet.

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Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 02, 2020 12:17PM
I remember liking the size and design of the H1, but found it ground too thickly. The stock was fine, just needed to be ground thinner if I recall.

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Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 02, 2020 06:12PM
Thinner how? They’re basically a zero grind with a microbevel to sharpen, I’m not sure how it gets thinner than that unless you mean something different than what I’m thinking of.
cKc
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 04, 2020 05:28AM
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Ryan Nafe
Thinner how? They’re basically a zero grind with a microbevel to sharpen, I’m not sure how it gets thinner than that unless you mean something different than what I’m thinking of.

full height grind, and they are not really zero ground, they have a blended secondary bevel normally

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 07, 2020 09:09PM
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cKc
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Ryan Nafe
Thinner how? They’re basically a zero grind with a microbevel to sharpen, I’m not sure how it gets thinner than that unless you mean something different than what I’m thinking of.

and they are not really zero ground, they have a blended secondary bevel normally

Well it’s true that with any kind of convex grind, put on with a slack belt, there’s gonna be an increase in curvature at the edge just because of the nature of griding with slack belts, it’s extremely minimal here.

That’s what I pointed out in a PM to you a while back, I was afraid it would be mostly flat and then have a dramatic increase in curvature at the edge, effectively making it no different than a typical saber grind with a distinct secondary edge.

But it’s simply not the case with this individual example. There’s no noticeable increase in curvature at the edge, even with my grinding that very likely increased the pre-existing curvature, until you get down around the 0.005” area.

It’s a ridiculously thin edge for a production knife. Even outshining most custom pieces.
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 07, 2020 09:16PM
Oh wait, you're talking about the H1 I used in that passaround? Or are you talking about your S1? I remember it being a heavy convex and saber ground, but if you have it in hand, as I indicated, I certainly know I could be remembering wrong.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 07, 2020 11:02PM
I’m not sure why you’re being so heated and sarcastic, C Amber. I asked you a question for clarification purposes, and gave you a few days to answer it. You didn’t answer it, cKc decided to, and I elected to wait a little while since it was you I had asked. Then I figured I’d respond to him because you didn’t seem to have any intention of answering the question.

Now you come in with some kind of weird, sarcastic, rhetorical question as a reply to a question that you still haven’t answered. I’m a bit confused. And assuming that the H1 you’re talking about is this one:

[www.cliffstamp.com]

Then I’m still not clear on what you mean by “ground too thickly” because unless someone in the pass-around altered the stock profile quite a bit, it’s extremely similar in cross section to my S1.
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 08, 2020 02:42AM
Please take a step back, this is discussion of curvature of a knife, nothing more.

The edge on the H1 is very thin, if by that you mean the transition from primary to secondary, however due to the thick stock, there are limitations as to what you can achieve. The most extreme I have seen in this regard was a 3/8" thick knife from Boye, ground in his style, edge was < 0.005", but it was still 3/8" at the spine, so that edge, even with a full height grind got very thick, very fast.
cKc
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 08, 2020 12:35PM
I have the passaround H1, it has bee zero ground almost flat grind. it is nothing like any fallkniven I've had in hand or played with in a shop.

the Fallknivens I have handled are typically thick convex, even though they still perform well, they are not as think as a BRK of similar stock, but they are similar. i recall Mike Stewat saying they helped train the Japanese grinders to do the convening as most these days are more used to flat and wheel grinding.

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Ryan

Well it’s true that with any kind of convex grind, put on with a slack belt, there’s gonna be an increase in curvature at the edge just because of the nature of griding with slack belts, it’s extremely minimal here.

yes and no. the reason so many have a bad view of convex and think of them as axe like grinds is because they think axes are mauls, and they also are used to experiencing convex grinds from people that don't know how to make convex knives and grind the entire thing on a slack belt.
it is by no means an act of convening on slack belts, its purely a skill and decision based issue the same as deciding how thick a flat grind will be. a flat can be 0.005, 0.010 etc.. convex is no difference except that it will cut better from relieving the prominent areas sticking out.

the best and proper way to do a convex is that you are actually flat grinding it 95% to shape the knife, and then using the slack to create an even convex grind.. people that then put the pressure in the centre of the blade are the ones that mess up..

the pressure needs to be in the right place so that the slack isn't trying to roll over the edge.

i do not use a slack belt to make convex knives ,because its just not as efficient. i use hard padded felt attached to the platen which the belt rides over to give exceptional control of where the material is removed and get a very high quality convex, even on knives that are 1mm thick etc.

now, if you are only used to seeing bad convex knives, then a fallkniven might seem like a great one, but they are not.. they are definitely overbuilt.. this is not a bad thing for their design though..

BRK knives are good examples of convex knives in general when I used them, but I heard they are using a big thicked edges now.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 08, 2020 12:40PM
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CliffStamp
The edge on the H1 is very thin, if by that you mean the transition from primary to secondary, however due to the thick stock, there are limitations as to what you can achieve. The most extreme I have seen in this regard was a 3/8" thick knife from Boye, ground in his style, edge was < 0.005", but it was still 3/8" at the spine, so that edge, even with a full height grind got very thick, very fast.

as are many of my lives, the broadleaf being an example along with many I've made that are 8mm +.. they can be extreley thin edges, but still because of rapid thickening be tough, and too thick for great performance outside of shallow cuts.

like this extreme example.




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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 08, 2020 01:44PM
I honestly did not understand the discussion. I'm still not sure whether the post is talking only about the S1 or also implying the H1 was ground that way and Kyley was wrong.

At any rate, Kyley noted what I remembered thinking: it would be better full flat grind as opposed to high saber with a convex. I checked my videos and have none featuring it so was unable to add anything more that was factually based. Kyley has noted it is now a full flat grind, but I'm not sure if it was at the time.

If it was a FFG at the time, I clearly was remembering it wrong and and it would need a reduction in stock thickness for me to enjoy cutting with it.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
cKc
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 08, 2020 02:05PM
>>Kyley has noted it is now a full flat grind, but I'm not sure if it was at the time.

Sorry.. its not FFG.. the Sabre grind is Fully flat ground to almost zero.. its still not a full height grind to spine.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 08, 2020 02:20PM
Thank you for checking it Kyley. Much appreciated.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 08, 2020 07:58PM
I think we’ve gone a wee bit into the weeds on this one, fellas. All I’m pointing out is that the knife I have came with an edge of not more than 0.005” thick and that the curvature between the edge and the top of the primary grind is fairly symmetrical in its radius and not heavily biased towards the secondary edge.

If you guys would find it useful I can easily take a series of measurements with a 0.001” resolution Mitutoyo caliper so that we can all have an accurate description of the exact cross section of the S1 at a few different spots along the edge.

As to what is a good or bad convex grind I’ve no idea. But I’d certainly cede the discussion to cKc on that topic, my knowledge of knife grinding next to his is pretty much nonexistent.
cKc
Re: Extreme Lateral and Tip Strength
August 09, 2020 12:40AM
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Ryan Nafe
As to what is a good or bad convex grind I’ve no idea. But I’d certainly cede the discussion to cKc on that topic, my knowledge of knife grinding next to his is pretty much nonexistent.

the fallknivens I've handled are good ones from what I've seen. just robust, which is prob a good thing for how they are marketed.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen