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A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down

Posted by YESH 
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A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 12:59AM
I know this is a very polarizing subject, but I just cannot get behind the idea of blade choils which are common from makers such as Busse/Swamp Rat/ESEE among others I cannot recall currently. I have just not found any that seem offer anything other than a 'feature' which is of little practical value in use other than the slightly allow for more neutral balance when choked up... at the cost of adding major snagging point and losing useful edge length. Sharpening ease is also cited among the 'values added', I have not had any problems which required this solution personally.

Thoughts?
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 02:28AM
So, I am OK with finger choils which serve a purpose (I like Spyderco's 50/50 choil on most of their knives). With that being said, a proper handle design and having the correct knife for the task means you shouldn't really require one. I think they make sense more often on folding knives, which tend to have a lot of unusable space between the front of the handle and the beginning of the cutting edge. Adding a 50/50 choil can make use of that wasted space.
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 03:29AM
Nothingman,
I like knives with choils, but they have to be executed correctly.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 03:39AM
very mixed opininon as i make and like both, and it sounds like we are talking finger choil not sharpening schools..

a lot of my larger blade designs are designed this way.. 8-12" blades for a specific reason that it alters the balance of the knife for lighter cutting tasks, food prep etc, and it is how the knife is suppose to be held for those tasks where the edge is now right up close to the finger.. this is different from what Cliff likes to do with power cuts for carving close up..

and when you are not using it in the light balanced grip, then its for chopping where that inch next to the handle is never utilized..

so it comes down to a very simple question to me.

do you want a knife where you can power cut right up next to the hand with a full grip,
or do you want kitchen knife like balance for detailed work such as food, and skinning/ filleting with a bigger blade.

to course.. i can only talk about my knives with specific design and balance focus to this in mind.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 02:44PM
Kyley,

I have always been of the mind that when it comes to 8-12+" blades, I really don't care at all how well they do at those tasks as I consider it extremely unlikely event that would find me with only an 8"+ blade and nothing 5-6" or smaller that really excels at those other lighter/finer cutting tasks. I actually expect the opposite to be true, I'd be much more likely to have only 5-6" belt knife and find myself either separated from my pack (housing the big blade) or not having it to begin with.

I understand it's all a trade off, but I would much prefer to have the power cutting ability that Cliff uses for carving than the finer cutting in that spot. I really cannot wrap my brain around 5-6" knives or even smaller yet, which really find that same power sweet spot for push cutting, having a large finger choil which places the webbing of your thumb directly over the 90 degree spine of hard/sharp metal directing all the force to a very sensitive and delicate area of your hand.

For me personally, the snag point is a major concern as I tend to view any knife I would carry as a defensive tool first and foremost and utility tool second. Same thing for a pistol, you could easily use it for other stuff like taking care of a farm pest problem or some other odd job... but it's obviously got to function in that defensive role first and foremost and I'd never choose that firearm according to a secondary use at the expense of it's most important usage.
cKc
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 03:33PM
Yeah.. well i guess it shows that different people have very different needs.
i will never consider a knife a defensive tool and will consider it a knife to cut first, and maybe do hard work second. i think it comes down to usage preference..

for example.. those power cuts at the handle cliff likes.. I've never done them in my life, and never needed them.. but I do a lot of fine cutting where I like the close up. i like the longer blade for sweeping brush, trees and small climbing.. and if I need a power cut I'll do it the same way id use a hatchet..

while I wasn't a massive fan of the knife that was made by buck, the Hoodlum knife is more in line with what I consider a good outdoor knife In my neck of the woods.

i wish i hadn't sold the fehrman one i had.. it was a pretty cool knife. good defensive capability, not bad climbing and such, half choil for close up work and easy sharpening.


to be honest thing. i think its far more important to be adaptable to whatever knife you have, and work out how it likes to be used, rather than locking yourself into using a knife 1 way and hating if it doesn't work. that way when you are in a bind, even if a knife sucks, you can make do with it and be as efficient as possible..

so to be honest.. at the end of the day, i will take it or leave it, as long as the knife is designed well however its made. and if i do have a ricasso with a coil, it needs to slant forward at 45 so it doesn't bind up in stuff..

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 04:19PM
Yeah, I pretty much fully realize most knives are not designed for defensive purposes first. My rationale for this, while it's highly unlikely event you'd resort to using a knife... they can be devastating in very close range applied properly. If they get hung up on the choil and you get the tool ripped from your hand because it's hung up in your attacker... that's a pretty bad result potentially depending on the motivation level of the individual and their tolerance to pain, also multiple attackers etc.

I tend to look not so much, what I'll expect to do most for EDC... but more what could potentially be encountered where a failure of the tool to function properly would certainly lead to loss or life of limb. I think this is why the sharpened pry bar thing is so popular, it's easy to envision a scenario where one might need to pry their way out of a wrecked vehicle to self rescue or some other unlikely thing. While highly unlikely, if the tool doesn't perform optimally for other less critical tasks it's a tradeoff you're willing to accept for peace of mind.

Then it's simply a matter of making sure to carry something that can fill the wholes in the range of activities a knife is often used for, so you are well covered in the widest range of needs. I think I remember Jerry Busse saying the difficulty in his knife challenge open to other makers, was not so much in outperforming his knives in any one area... but when it came to cutting the widest range of possible things his wares were without peer. I think there's something to this sort of design, you are trading off specialized performance for jack of all trades across the board acceptable performance without gross failure.
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 04:26PM
I apologize for making the reference without having a reference, it's just something I remembered seeing and I couldn't possibly hope to find it again after all these years it's stuck with me. To be clear, I am not making that claim as to what he said 100% or even that I could even tell if it were in fact true or not.... I share only for a discussion point of performance that seems to not be mentioned.
cKc
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 04:32PM
Quote
Nothingman
I apologize for making the reference without having a reference, it's just something I remembered seeing and I couldn't possibly hope to find it again after all these years it's stuck with me. To be clear, I am not making that claim as to what he said 100% or even that I could even tell if it were in fact true or not.... I share only for a discussion point of performance that seems to not be mentioned.

I remember similar thinking along those lines in regards to his tools. I'm sure the reference is on his forum.

its kind of a fear driven tradeoff that doesn't make sense though when you think about it. ifthat is the case, its only useful if its on you.. i think most people don't have it on them, so in many of these potential situations, it just wont be there because it wasn't practical to carry all the time.


>>they can be devastating in very close range applied properly.
in America, carry a gun and a small nice cutting knife grinning smiley

or, make a sheath that has a nice prybar and a nice thin knife in the same sheath for the same weight grinning smiley grinning smiley grinning smiley

you could have a nice paring knife, a nice 5" thin cutting knife, and a prybar for 800grams grinning smiley

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 04:50PM
Quote
cKc
I remember similar thinking along those lines in regards to his tools. I'm sure the reference is on his forum.

its kind of a fear driven tradeoff that doesn't make sense though when you think about it. ifthat is the case, its only useful if its on you.. i think most people don't have it on them, so in many of these potential situations, it just wont be there because it wasn't practical to carry all the time.

Yes, you are correct it is fear driven... were it not for certain fears nobody would carry pistols or other means of defending themselves. It usually takes some experience of trauma to ones self or others that strikes close to heart for people to realize the need, which manifest in simple feeling of fear.

You are very correct in that many people who purchase Busse styled blade, do not in fact carry them outside of the theater of war where the threats are much more urgent. That said, he has designed several which I feel make a nice balance between practical to carry and will work decently enough for wide range of activities.

Quote
cKc
>>they can be devastating in very close range applied properly.
in America, carry a gun and a small nice cutting knife grinning smiley

Depending on circumstances and where you see yourself going, I wholeheartedly endorse said practice with the addition of some type of larger hard use/combat knife design that's not a total pig to carry comfortably. To me, it's not carry a gun OR a combat knife... I see them as primary and secondary level tools for defensive uses where you should attempt to have both accessible.

Quote
cKc
or, make a sheath that has a nice prybar and a nice thin knife in the same sheath for the same weight grinning smiley grinning smiley grinning smiley

you could have a nice paring knife, a nice 5" thin cutting knife, and a prybar for 800grams grinning smiley

This is becoming more of thing, with the mini pry bars being more common in EDC from what I've seen. I think the thing is, if you're not going to carry that single 'Busse/xxxx/xxx' insert other brand overbuilt knife... how likely are you to carry those multiple tools even if they weigh less it's still more kit. Hence, the lowly Swiss Army knife being such a good compromise and utility offered compared to weight/bulk/carry difficulty.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2020 04:57PM by Nothingman.
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 11, 2020 11:48PM
I like the idea of choils, some have been better executed than others. If anything, I like them as an index point and for ease of sharpening.

Quote
cKc
>>they can be devastating in very close range applied properly.
in America, carry a gun and a small nice cutting knife grinning smiley

Getting old enough and financially independent enough to be able to play with and carry guns really ruined knives for me. I usually just carry my Leatherman or my Case Stockman. If I get into trouble, I ain't gonna be solving it with a knife. If I'm not shooting them, I'd much rather clunk an adversary over the head with a flashlight or a sap. Much less messy and much more likely to solve the problem quickly.

Quote
Nothingman


Depending on circumstances and where you see yourself going, I wholeheartedly endorse said practice with the addition of some type of larger hard use/combat knife design that's not a total pig to carry comfortably. To me, it's not carry a gun OR a combat knife... I see them as primary and secondary level tools for defensive uses where you should attempt to have both accessible.

There is something to be said for a "tactical problem solving tool", but that is much more likely to be as a probe or prying tool than a weapon.

My Ratmandu has a place on my tactical gear because it has a nice sheath and looks cool when shooting a match. smoking smiley

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Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2020 11:51PM by Bugout Bill.
me2
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 12, 2020 03:56PM
I'm good with choils. They can't be an afterthought in the design though. I have added a sharpening choil to a couple of knives recently. They were added with a 3/32" diameter chainsaw sharpening bit on my dremel and are fairly shallow, so the leading edge is at an angle and not a 90 degree corner. No snagging issues so far.
Re: A Choiled Knife, Is A SPOILED Knife... thumbs down
June 13, 2020 03:22AM
Quote
cKc
.... if i do have a ricasso with a coil, it needs to slant forward at 45 so it doesn't bind up in stuff..

This is why I tend to dislike sharpening notches that transition into the edge at a near 90 degree angle and make snagging likely. Your slipjoint design used that 45 degree angle at the heel of the blade which reduces the snagging tendency while still ensuring ease of sharpening. Sadly I don't see it on all that many knives.