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S90V For Foodprep

Posted by jasonstone20 
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S90V For Foodprep
June 18, 2020 07:36PM
[forum.spyderco.com]

I was wondering if high carbide steels would be useful in the kitchen, and could their apexes withstand hitting a cutting board repeatedly.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 18, 2020 08:08PM
I like how that guy asks a question, on one asks him for necessary details and gives answers.

Any steel is useful in the kitchen depending on what you want in a kitchen knife. I have kitchen knives in pretty much every steel.
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 18, 2020 08:12PM
Cliff,
I wonder why the 'super-steels' haven't been popular in kitchen knives like they have been in folders.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 18, 2020 10:07PM
It actually isn't. The vast majority of folding knives use very simple steels.

As for why there are not a lot of promotion of ultra high carbide kitchen knives - most people buying that kind of folder are not actually using them. Most people buying kitchen knives buy them to use them. Of course there are some people with extensive kitchen knife collections, but even those people, there are a few YT's, tend to focus on things like balance, cutting ability, sharpness, etc. . It is only a small segment of the folding market which seems to be hyper focused on how long a folding knife can cut a piece of cardboard while ignoring how well it does it, or in general acts like a knife.

I mean try this with a 10V knife :

[www.youtube.com]

Especially the 45 second sharpening at the end.
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 02:13PM
Useful, no.

But it would sell. smoking smiley

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Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 04:53PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Cliff,
I wonder why the 'super-steels' haven't been popular in kitchen knives like they have been in folders.

the higher end kitchen knives are extremely thin. you want high hardness, and toughness. the edges will ripple and you want steels that wont plastically deform, and wont chip.

now.. even if some of these steels would make decent kitchen knives, BBB made one that is nice and thin.. look at what the cost is going to be to take them to the thin edges desired.

the "value" of the high carbide super steels is the coarse edge holding ability. for most chefing work, you want fine cutting ability in general, especially for the delicate cuts that want thin edges..

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 05:38PM
cKc,
Yes, BBB made that Chefs/Gyuto in 10V if I remember correctly. That is what made me wonder about using high carbide steels for kitchen knives. It seems to be a matter of diminishing returns. He had to do a lot more work on that 10V knife. He had it around 0.005" behind the edge. Shawn let me borrow one of his Trapper models in S125V. The blade stayed sharp longer with cutting cardboard than any blade I had every used. I cut every day with it for a week, a pile of cardboard, and it still was shaving sharp. Then I decided to make breakfast with it, and it went dull very fast. I didn't have the knife for that long, and only sharpened it once, so I didn't get a real good look. It did make me wonder though if high carbide steel knives would be suitable for kitchen work.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 05:43PM
Quote
jasonstone20
I cut every day with it for a week, a pile of cardboard, and it still was shaving sharp. Then I decided to make breakfast with it, and it went dull very fast. I didn't have the knife for that long, and only sharpened it once, so I didn't get a real good look. It did make me wonder though if high carbide steel knives would be suitable for kitchen work.

do you recall the specs of that knife. spine thickness, blade height BTE? and edge angle.

why did making breakfast dull it after a week of cutting cardboard?

what "other" blades do you have that are comparable geometry, or thinner that it outdid and by how much? indications are fine. don't need exactness.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 06:41PM
cKc,
Yes, it was about 0.010" behind the edge, 15° DPS edge. I don't remember how thick the knife was at the spine. I did a quick review here and YouTube video about it and another knife, the Benchmade Bugout. [www.cliffstamp.com]

The reason I thought making breakfast dulled the knife was because of the blade hitting the cutting board. That is why I sharpened it, and made breakfast with it again, to see if it would get dull again, and it did. The other knife I used was in 420HC or 1.4116, some steel like that. I made breakfast with that knife, and it was shaving before and after making the meal, unlike the knife in S125V, which shaved before but not after, both times.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 07:15PM
that is very unusual.. cutting board made of?

unless you are slamming it into the chopping board and causing fracturing at the very apex. could be possible as we are only talking about its "shaving" qualities

people used to think 0.01" is really thin for a kitchen knife.. no.. its about avg for a budget quality knife in a basic grade steel like Victorinox, my boning knife for example, is 0.01" at the edge and around 10dps (not 12) and its boned about 25 chickens so far with barely a couple of light wipes on a steel hone.

as fir chopping boards





you just have to take care on this high carbides

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 07:21PM
cKc,
I think the cutting board is some type of polyurethane. The blade was designed to be a hunting/outdoor blade. Yes, I was just looking at the high sharpness. That was the only thing I did that made the knife lose sharpness, I had never used any steel with a carbide percentage over ELMAX or S30V, and those edges last forever with me if I am waiting for them not to shave. This is a perfect example why you shouldn't make conclusions off one sample and a short time using a knife. I wish I had a sheath for the knife, so I could have EDC'd it for a month or two, and sharpened it a few times. S125V is an interesting steel.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 07:22PM
Quote
jasonstone20
cKc,
Yes, it was about 0.010" behind the edge, 15° DPS edge. I don't remember how thick the knife was at the spine. I did a quick review here and YouTube video about it and another knife, the Benchmade Bugout. [www.cliffstamp.com]
.

so in the video you say 0.007" written on the tab but pro not verifiable easily, but you said 7dps? that would probably provide for very poor edge stability and I'm surprised you got a week of cutting cardboard out of it. what volume of cutting did you do to still have hair shaving?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 07:23PM
Quote
jasonstone20
I wish I had a sheath for the knife, so I could have EDC'd it for a month or two

and a handle I bet.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 07:43PM
cKc,
Yes, you are right, I misremembered. I don't think I did any measurement on it myself, I took Shawn at his word. The blade was very thin, it would bend on your thumbnail. The edge bevel was very thin, hard to see. It looked like a microbevel. The knife just zipped through everything. I was mostly push cutting, just using the heel of the blade.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 07:44PM
cKc,
Yes, a handle would have been nice too, but the ergo's were actually really good on that knife, even without a handle.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 08:52PM
Quote
jasonstone20
It looked like a microbevel.

if it was 0.007" and it was 7dps, then the edge bevel would have been nearly 0.03" which is 0.7mm which is reasonably large visible bevel to me.

15dps is 1/2 that which starts sounding like closer to a micro bevel.

bear in mind I cant see my micro bevels by eye, and even the 1/2 figure to me is a visible bevel

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 09:00PM
i think its this knife. 0.008, 10dps, which sounds right and close to what you are saying. this could have been before or after you, and resharpened thinner or thicker. lol




----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 09:03PM
cKc,
Yes that is the knife. I am just going by memory here.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 20, 2020 09:12PM
yeah.. no worries. if it really was that thin, then depending on how you cut into the board, and what you cut. sure I can see it loosing hair shaving sharpness immediately.. but you don't need that for cooking grinning smiley it might hold tomato slicing aggression for years. just don't dent or chip it, then its going to suck

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 21, 2020 04:44PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Cliff,
I wonder why the 'super-steels' haven't been popular in kitchen knives like they have been in folders.

Kitchen knives typically have 5 to 10 times bigger area to be ground than a folder.
This directly traslates into amount of time/labor and spent abrasives.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 21, 2020 04:50PM
Quote
JSCT
Quote
jasonstone20
Cliff,
I wonder why the 'super-steels' haven't been popular in kitchen knives like they have been in folders.

Kitchen knives typically have 5 to 10 times bigger area to be ground than a folder.
This directly traslates into amount of time/labor and spent abrasives.

Yeah, Shawn said it took forever and used up a lot of belts to get that Chef's/Gyuto ground out.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 21, 2020 05:03PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Quote
JSCT
Quote
jasonstone20
Cliff,
I wonder why the 'super-steels' haven't been popular in kitchen knives like they have been in folders.

Kitchen knives typically have 5 to 10 times bigger area to be ground than a folder.
This directly traslates into amount of time/labor and spent abrasives.

Yeah, Shawn said it took forever and used up a lot of belts to get that Chef's/Gyuto ground out.

My friend commonly makes kitchen knives out of elmax and M390 and he complains a lot
just to obtain reasonable belt finish.

For the contrast:

1) I make AEB-L and RWL-34 kitchen knives that have much keener geometry
are longer, significantly more distal tapered and taken to higher finish.
And it takes about the same time..
Their edges can get dull faster than high carbide steels but they are also much
nicer to use as the cutting ability is somewhere else..

2) He also makes 3 to 5inch hunters out of K390, V4E, Vanadis 10 etc..
and he mirror polishes them.. BY HAND without use of any buffer..
also takes him lesser time than the chef knife with just belt finish..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2020 05:07PM by JSCT.
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 21, 2020 05:32PM
Quote
JSCT
My friend commonly makes kitchen knives out of elmax and M390 and he complains a lot
just to obtain reasonable belt finish.

For the contrast:

1) I make AEB-L and RWL-34 kitchen knives that have much keener geometry
are longer, significantly more distal tapered and taken to higher finish.
And it takes about the same time..
Their edges can get dull faster than high carbide steels but they are also much
nicer to use as the cutting ability is somewhere else..

So I just watched some of your chopping vid that looked like someone in a commercial kitchen having a bit of high speed fun.
was that one of your AEBL or RWL?
what edge thickness and edge angles do you take them to?

and then your friend who makes elmax and m390. what edge thickness and angle are they taken to? any videos of them? as you said yours are much nicer to use with the geometry. wondering what the difference level is.

are the friends knives also used by people in a commercial environment, or home use.
I'm interested in what type of dulling faster you mean? and how much faster. because aebl is just so easy to restore in the kitchen.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 21, 2020 06:59PM
Quote
jasonstone20


Yeah, Shawn said it took forever and used up a lot of belts to get that Chef's/Gyuto ground out.

I am skeptical of a lot of these posts because it seems self-promotional . The first time I heard it, someone asked Kevin McClung why the cost of his 9" blades was more than twice that of his 7" blades. His response, half of the 9" blades were lost in the hardening as it is so difficult to do it right. Everyone on the forum was amazed, he was doing something so difficult. My first response was to think - if adding 2" made you lose half the blades, how do those guys make swords?

[www.youtube.com]

I post this here to show you a guy who does the exact opposite, he talks about how fast/easy it is to grind with :

-correct speed, HP and proper abrasives and technique

As well note he is grinding 440C as-hardened, not annealed. Realize again, his is grinding the blade AFTER it is hardened, think about that while you look at what is happening.

Now are steels like 10V harder to grind than 440C, even as-hardened 440C, of course, but is the grindability a thousand times lower - of course not, go look at the materials data, and then watch Ray Ennis rip through 440C blade after blade in literally seconds.

Here is the question I would ask anyone who complains about abrasive use or time in grinding :

-what grit, lubricant, feed speed, and pressure are you using on the belts

Modern high end abrasives are often designed to fracture in use, but that requires matching pressure (feed speed and tool loads) and proper lubricants to avoid excessive heat build up and frictional wear.

In addition :

-have you spoke to the technical department in the abrasives manufacturer to ensure all parameters are optimal

See for example p. 375 in ASM Tool Materials - "Grinding CPM-10V cold work tool steel" .

It isn't like people have not been grinding these materials for decades.

As soon as anyone even hints at something like this is hard so :

-pay a lot of money for it
-it is awesome you should appreciate all the work I did

The first thing you should think is - was all of that necessary. Demand the proof that they have the skill, knowledge and experience to be doing the LEAST amount of work possible.
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 21, 2020 11:33PM
Quote
cKc
Quote
JSCT
My friend commonly makes kitchen knives out of elmax and M390 and he complains a lot
just to obtain reasonable belt finish.

For the contrast:

1) I make AEB-L and RWL-34 kitchen knives that have much keener geometry
are longer, significantly more distal tapered and taken to higher finish.
And it takes about the same time..
Their edges can get dull faster than high carbide steels but they are also much
nicer to use as the cutting ability is somewhere else..

So I just watched some of your chopping vid that looked like someone in a commercial kitchen having a bit of high speed fun.
was that one of your AEBL or RWL?
what edge thickness and edge angles do you take them to?

Probably saw a friend who works as a chef in a restaurant..
Yes that was AEB-L 240mm gyuto at 62hrc.
Knowing he has a heavy hand that one was 30deg inclusive and 0.16mm from the heel and
0.2mm in the mid and tip staying the 0.2mm.

I am ok to take such gyuto to 0.12mm bte at 25 to 30deg if I know user is careful.

I made about 3 pettys and a parer that I took to some or sub 0.05mm bte at 25deg.

Quote
cKc
and then your friend who makes elmax and m390. what edge thickness and angle are they taken to? any videos of them? as you said yours are much nicer to use with the geometry. wondering what the difference level is.

are the friends knives also used by people in a commercial environment, or home use.
I'm interested in what type of dulling faster you mean? and how much faster. because aebl is just so easy to restore in the kitchen.

My friend is Juraj Trnka. He sharpens his knives at 35deg and for kitchen they
are some 0.25mm bte in average.. He isnt an internet guy and speaks no english
but here is his forum gallery on local forum: He makes rather hunters than kitchen knives
example of his k390 fox river in hands of Pavol Sandor
here is his forum gallery on local forum and N695 Old style kitchen
His are used in home mostly, I dont remember him mentioning to ever sell to a pro chef..
Thing with "no knife ppl" is they cant even sharpen to a decent sharpness often
and they would just say that knife is impossible to sharpen..
Where they can usually get their aebl blades sharp enough even with low skill..
He has a tormek and ppl bring him knives once for like 6months sometimes a year or two..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2020 11:37PM by JSCT.
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 22, 2020 03:45AM
thanks for the info. some nice looking knives

He sharpens his knives at 35deg and for kitchen they
are some 0.25mm bte in average.

this is still very respectable for most people though.. so its not bad.
they may or may not be getting better edge retention, but they may possibly highly value the corrosion resistance etc if he takes them to a fine polish.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 22, 2020 11:36AM
Quote
CliffStamp
I am skeptical of a lot of these posts because it seems self-promotional.

Yes it often happens. Thats truth. Perhaps making slicing knife f.e. 230mm edge
with lot of distal taper, 0.1mm bte, 2.3mm at the spine, 2mm in the middle
and further disappearing towards the tip..
Made such thing out of 3.8mm V4E stock and it takes quite some time.
(After ht V4E is similar to grinding time of elmax)

Quote
CliffStamp
if adding 2" made you lose half the blades, how do those guys make swords?

That was a point hard to counter spinning smiley sticking its tongue out
Plus they use steels with significantly lower dimensional stability in ht than those McClung used..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 22, 2020 12:22PM
Quote
cKc
thanks for the info. some nice looking knives

He sharpens his knives at 35deg and for kitchen they
are some 0.25mm bte in average.

this is still very respectable for most people though.. so its not bad.
they may or may not be getting better edge retention, but they may possibly highly value the corrosion resistance etc if he takes them to a fine polish.

He certainly makes very good knives.
Yes one of his K390 mirror knives not used for 2y in leather sheath had only light patina
and was completely cleaned/repolished in 10mins by 1um diamond paste on wood..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 22, 2020 01:52PM
i think there are some interesting perspectives here.

1, is it cost effective and worth it to have such a knife in s90v, etc
2, if money is no object to the buyer, will that knife actually provide them a better experience.

if you can take these knives to 0.010" and 15dps, to achieve similar geometry to a reasonable factory chef knife, then will it have better corrosion resistance, better edge holding (this is not cardboard cutting) so will the characteristics of the knife actually lend themselves to the types of cutting used in kitchens?

will those steels after repeated impacts in the chopping board work better for draw cutting and stay sharp longer?

they may not compete with the thinnest a high end Murray carter or label can be taken to possibly in terms of edge thinness, but how many people are really going that low anyway.

i would be resistant to them purely on the basis that damage happens, then they must be fixed. but perhaps the buyers of these will just send it away for a repair.

i think though, that if you are wanting the best of the best in a kitchen knife, then you are going to want to go for something like a edge quenched plain steel that can get 66rc and be very fine and take a bit of shock.

I'm more than happy with aebl at 60rc+ because frankly I'm happy with a Victorinox that gets thinned down on the apex grinning smiley kitchen knives are very nice when you can take 5-8dps almost, or to, the very apex.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 22, 2020 02:39PM
If you look at say S90V vs AEB-L, then :

-S90V doesn't have an advantage in corrosion resistance or max hardness (S90V takes a lot more to get there)
-S90V has lower grindability, specific stone requirements, lower apex stability

S90V does have a large advantage in abrasive wear resistance.

One of the few real descriptions of uses of very high carbide steels I have seen was by Tom Mayo. Mayo was a strong advocate of 440V and a point he used to make was that he made hunting knives for guides who would NOT sharpen them. They would return the knives to him and the edges were almost worn completely away.

In that kind of situation, where the majority of the life of the knife is going to be in some kind of semi-dull state as it isn't going to be sharpened, the cutting ability will be higher with a very wear resistant steel, hence I would suspect those guys would not like a steel like AEB-L at all. The question then becomes, are you using your kitchen knife like that?

In general, very general, the sharper you like your knives, the less important abrasive wear resistance.