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S90V For Foodprep

Posted by jasonstone20 
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Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 23, 2020 09:19AM
Jason,

In general use of high wear steel for a kitchen knife makes sense you are actually going to
spend hours a day by cutting and you never going to cause other damage to the edge
than by slow wear..

Slicing knives are somewhat narrower therefore they have less surface to be ground
compared to chefs and also they are used by slicing motion most of time.
So if for anything in kitchen a high wear steel would optimal it would be a slicer..

Perhaps in the kitchen most of time knife cuts wet so leaving something like S90V
with rough belt finish would not give you the corrosion resistance sufficient
for most kitchen in long time term.. So still need to be finished decently..
And therefore it would stilll be expensive not cost effective unless the top section of this post..

I never tried to actually use very coarse edge as Cliff mentioned on some lower wear steel
and compare slicing edge retention..
But I think using a high carbide slicer with some 6k stone edge would be cutting
foods way nicer.. So it could be rather be an option..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 23, 2020 10:22AM
Quote
Cliff Stamp Banned - BladeForums, 2001
I bought a Chef's knife from Phil Wilson (seamount@bigplanet.com) as a wedding gift for a friend. It arrived yesterday and it is very well crafted. The steel is 420HC (0.5% carbon), and the blade is 7" long, ground from 1/8" stock with a distal taper. The knife has a neutral balance and is stable resting on my index and middle finger. The spine is well rounded and should be comfortable under low to medium pressure. The handle is Corian and well shaped to be very comfortable and secure in hand.

Performance wise, well its not mind so unfortunately I can't actually use it. However with a primary grind of about 2 degrees, and an edge that is just barely visible, 0.005" thick near base, thinner towards tip, I have no doubts that the blade will cut very well, among the best I have seen easily. The edge was honed on a diamond rod and then ran a few times on a loaded strop to strengthen the edge without removing too much aggression. The edge will shave a little, but more importantly should be very aggressive when slicing.

In regards to the steel used, Phil does work in a wide variety of steels even the exotic like CPM-S90V, and does true custom work so there would be no problem getting whatever you wanted. I went with 420HC (which is his standard choice for kitchen knives), because of the high corrosion resistance and edge durability. The blade is hardened to 55/56 RC and with just a touchup on the Sharpmakers from time to time should provide a lifetime of quality service. I did a quick check on a Sharpmaker (which I also included as part of the gift) to see if the edge would need to be reprofiled - it didn't.

No picture available as my camera self-destructed some time ago and is out for repair.

-Cliff

funny not a single comment in between
Quote
5 years later
Long term update, I recently got this back from the couple I gave it to as a wedding gift. The tip had been bent to about a 45 degree set and the edge was really dull, it had not been sharpened in about five years. I gave them a Sharpmaker as well but some people just don't sharpen knives.

I reset the tip carefully taking it just a bit at a time until it was straight. Ideally the handle should be removed and the blade rehardened. The edge responded very well to the stones. I had been sharpening a lot of softer stainless recently and they were all having burr issues. This was different, is it the steel or the heat treating or was I just in the zone? I'll check again in another five years.

-Cliff

Quote
what damanged the tip?
I asked, the wife didn't know and the husband was away on work. I would assume separation of frozen foods. The tip is *really* thin, similar to a fillet blade. It is made for fine work. I sort of expected this kind of behavior, which is why I went with 420HC vs S90V at the time.


Quote
Phil Wilson
Cliff, I see my name mentioned here so may be able to answer some of the questions on the thread. First this kind of feed back on my knives is very welcome. I don't often get it especially on a knife made 5 years ago. I do like 420 for Chef's knives. It is nice to work with is a great steel for a kitchen application as noted here. This version of 420 has 0.5% carbon and the potential hardness after temper is about 58rc max. I use turco for decarb/carbon diffusion protection, 2020 F soak, an oil quench, and a subzero right after oil quench to get it there. I have several of these knives in my kitchen and one in my camper and they get a lot of use. Edge holding is really pretty good and since they are thin sharpening is quick and easy. They respond ok to a plain steel as well. If a knife blade is heat treated correctly it will bend a little before it breaks. Even the harder steels like 10V will do that. If it breaks with out a little deformation then it has not been tempered at a high enough temp, or not tempered at all. Dropping on a concrete floor is a different kind of load. The dynamic forces are so high that usally it will break but there usally will be some evidenve of plastic deformation at the break. Cliff if you want to restore the knife, send it to me and I will regrind the tip area back to good steel. It will be a little shorter but still useable. Removing the handle and re-heat treating would be more work than it is worth. Easier to make a new knife. PHIL

I believe since then, Phil has started using AEBL at 60RC, but I think he reserves the use of elmax grades etc for the filleting knives etc. (this is guess work from what I've seen, not factual)

source

I don't have any particular dislike with how elmax etc handle in the kitchen. at the edge levels I apply you wont notice a difference.
given the way kitchen knives typically wear, I'm not sure how much advantage they have.
as a slicer typically isn't doing a lot of slamming, it will stay sharp incredibly long no matter what steel it is.
impacting onto chopping boards tends to dull by deformation, will elmax or more be better? hard to know.

will any of them justify the extreme increase in costs.. hard to say,.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2020 10:34AM by cKc.
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 23, 2020 10:57AM
Larrin's interview with phil

a lot of interesting insights in there

the one thing though, no matter what I agree with on any of the points or disagree with is that the focus is on edge longevity, with knife maintenance as an overall exclusion..

now of course for someone like Phil or another.. if you really damage the knife and it needs repair, like with Cliff, he will say, send it back, I'll do it.. but his isn't cost-effective

I wonder if he made any fillet knives in higher vanadium than 154 and s30v.. and got feedback on them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 23, 2020 01:37PM
I had one of his S90V fillet blades, local fisherman was not impressed because they could not sharpen it. BUT, this is kind of like many things, he isn't making them for that market. It is like you look at certain cars, just because not everyone would want them means the car is in any way defective or shows poor choices. You have to look at Phil's audience, and in general, for them - I have not read a lot of complaints about his knives. In fact, I have not read any really. He is very clear about why he does what he does, and that is what you need to take into account.
cKc
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 23, 2020 01:44PM
And his fillet knives look absolutely amazing.. one of them in AEBL would be a dream come true. lol

Quote

I had one of his S90V fillet blades, local fisherman was not impressed because they could not sharpen it.

I think this is key to it.. when you are going on 1 hunt, and just want a knife to get you through that hunt. s90v might be a great choice.
but when you are doing sufficient volume that sharpening is not a nice to have, it starts degrading the value.

the less you do, the more you might value carbide.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: S90V For Foodprep
June 23, 2020 02:00PM
Quote
cKc
I think this is key to it.. when you are going on 1 hunt, and just want a knife to get you through that hunt. s90v might be a great choice.
but when you are doing sufficient volume that sharpening is not a nice to have, it starts degrading the value.

the less you do, the more you might value carbide.

I will rather be sharpening knife 20times in a half year by 2minutes each time,
than once for 40 minutes..

I have enough patience to sit and polish stuff for days / several tens of hours
close to perfection.. perhaps any finishing / sharpening that takes significantly
longer than 20minutes just isnt enoyable..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools