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Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation

Posted by bluntcut 
Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 06, 2016 02:40PM
BluntCut MetalWorks heat treated steels attributes (referenced context below) are based on my Crystal Weaving Foundation(CWF). CFW has graduated into a small contribution to science. It will open a door to go outside of the current industry ht box/room - a broad area and depth to be explored by all of you.

Science Freedom - details of CFW 'how' & 'why' are to be widely presented and it should be easily replicated & applied. Applicability will stretch across the entire steel industry, where cutlery/edge-tool is a small sector in it. 'How' will be a general ht formula, and 'why' if you would like to understand chemistry & physics aspects/science of it.

This post (across multiple forums) declared my intention. I haven't shoot the 'how' video nor write up yet, so welcome to suggest better format etc..

Best regards,
==Luong

*** Hardness/strength 2+rc exceeded mfg's max rc is just an easy quantifier - other attributes are also important ***

BCMW 20160702 ht results

CPM-M4 69rc - [www.alphaknifesupply.com]
Elmax 65rc - [www.alphaknifesupply.com]
S110V 65.5rc - [www.alphaknifesupply.com]
CTS-XHP 67.5rc - [www.alphaknifesupply.com]
CPM 10V 69.5rc - [www.alphaknifesupply.com]

29 minutes video - sorry, 2nd is fuzzy due to over heated camera
Whittled: oak, bamboo, lignum vitae argentine (LVA) and thin metal tube (at end of fuzzy video)
Chopped: oak, LVA

[youtu.be]

Edges after whittled thin metal tube (in video)


BCMW 20160615 66+rc W2 chop test at cryogenic(LN2) temperature - ** as stated - it's more than just hardness/strength ***
[youtu.be]
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 06, 2016 09:19PM
*Cliff* feel free to move or delete this thread if deem inappropriate or violate forum's rules. **

While waiting for declaration period to expires.

If you have time to burn, you might enjoy this 11 minutes video entertainment

BCMW 20160706 cut old ironing board with 8670 steel blade at 64rc

Using Crystal Weaving Foundation ht to hardened this blade.

8670 Steel, 64rc, 0.10" thick
~0.015" behind edge thick
~30* inclusive sharpening bevel (15dps)

For these kind of abusive testing, please keep in mind 40* inclusive angle is about 2.3 times stronger by steel volume of 30*. This blade sharpened at 30* which is a very thin angle for this type of usage/abuse. Also its behind edge thickness (shoulder of sharpening bevel) is only ~0.015. This edge geometry is commonly used by pocket knives.

[youtu.be]
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 09, 2016 03:44PM
Here is my process to come up with conceptual/logical CWF 'how'. But 'how' to 'what'? So I must clearly/quantitatively define 'what' is the goal? otherwise - the whole process is like a blind squirrel looking for moon nuts - well: I contacted NASA, my chance increased by 10^-18

Graph

Map an aust volume (inside a grain) as volume/3D graph, where Fe & C are vertices and inter-atomic electromagnetic as edges. FCC = planar Fe4C = 5 vert 4 edges. There are total of N edges.

FCC transformation to BCT, where BCT = volumetric 9 vert 8 edges.

Optimization Goal:
1. optimize for highest number of edges from 1N to 2N (can't get to 2N because of volume skin/outer surface). Strength & toughness components.
2. least increase in volume radius. This is spatial/dimension component, which affect inter-grain.

Since BCT transformation is shear volume (i.e. increase length in one direction, hence orientation), easy to see/simulate an optimal volume graph should be where BCT change orientation(weave) at smallest cell unit as possible minimal # of broken/disconnected edges.

Well, I expect a few of you to turn ON those LN2 cool super-cluster-massive-parallel computer to crunch this graph. I would like 10 best configurations. Maybe throw in hexagonal and cementite as well.

*** GOT IT - said you ***

Physical/practical/applied ht-CWF 'how' with step-by-step to be disclose.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 09, 2016 04:40PM
BC, I appreciate the video's but a few comments :

-Manufacturer results in terms of hardness are nominal only and thus are expected to vary based on composition, tolerances and just general variances, hence you would expect a careful hardness to be able to slightly exceed them in terms of HRC, though care has to be taken in calibration/verification

-You need some kind of reference blade to interpret the results. As I noted in the last video, take the same blade, do a standard HT and then use it side-by-side and show the kind of results and what is the extra geometry on the standard HT to keep it from taking damage
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 09, 2016 04:55PM
Thanks, Cliff.

I've so many baseline/reference blades. Also I treat hrc as macro hardness so it is there as an easy pacifier to less informed readers.

In order to use/test these blades at 'Untempered' state - the matrix can't be brittle.

Here is an excerp from BF post - you might appreciate about my view/hint at HRC. I think, you've used similar analogy or I swiped from you.

Does every 150 lbs person has the same strength? If not, we shouldn't think/look at - every 60rc equate to the same strength.

Does a swimming pool filled with big rocks has the same strength as a block swimming pool size concrete? Well, both will support 1T (HRC) car drives across it.

Thus far, I pointed out about HRC as a quantifier/indicator but it's a little deeper than that - maybe CWF matrix is more resemblance a swimming pool size concrete


edit to add: my rockwell tester # closely-matches with another maker's tester.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 04:58PM by bluntcut.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 09, 2016 05:04PM
Here is a bf link - [www.bladeforums.com]

I am quite confident - a 10v or CPM-M4 at 68+rc doesn't exists anywhere in the world beside mine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 05:05PM by bluntcut.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 09, 2016 06:42PM
I would not suggest using a standard HT blade in an untempered state, I am not sure what that would be representing, unless you were looking at low stress/wear only. Using the standard HT, there are usually multiple points recommended depending on what you want to maximize, some combination of strength/toughness/wear/corrosion. For example, 1095 has a strength/toughness peak at ~325F which gives ~67 HRC and a very high wear/strength and torsional toughness. To maximize toughness generally, there is another peak much higher which reduces the hardness by ~10 HRC points, loses strength/wear but makes the blade pretty much invulnerable to general use/impacts. Blades tempered to hit the second peaks will just flatten/smear out in extremes and won't chip at all. Thus these two peaks would serve as points of reference for your blades. Of course there are also the more recent advocated treatments using the secondary hardening cycles to produce ultra-fine grain size martensite which claim very high toughness at the high hardness, but I have not seen anything commercial, just references in academic work. Still, that recipe is there as well.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 09, 2016 08:33PM
Cliff, I understand and appreciate your points/views. However I'm not even trying to compare my CWF vs conventional ht. The world will replicate and compare/whatever themselves. A path of proving stuff = CWF isn't ready. Yes, I am saying - I went past that. I am counting on the world can't ignore it, once shown. Maybe it's my flea hill worth of contribution, so it is - and don't care that much. But if it happens to help earth a little bit - I just breath a bit easier - that's all.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 09, 2016 09:53PM
Quote
bluntcut
Cliff, I understand and appreciate your points/views. However I'm not even trying to compare my CWF vs conventional ht.

To be frank, this makes no sense. If you don't have comparisons to standard HT then how could you possibly know you didn't waste your time and find a really complicated way to make an inferior blade. I can't really even accept you didn't even check to see a standard HT blade could not do everything you have done/claimed.

In any case, without comparisons (or standard materials tests) then nothing you do actually has any meaning essentially as there is no way to even interpret any results even qualitatively. Anyway, I really can't believe that you did any amount of work in HT blades without actually running comparisons against standard protocols.

By that I just mean I am fairly shocked, as it would be the first thing that is obvious to do as otherwise you would not even know if you were improving anything or not.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 09, 2016 10:04PM
Cliff, it's this no ending proving from myself then double-blind then CI ... see I won't go down that path. If untempered 68+rc 10V/M4 don't exists out there, what there to compare with mine. Temper down to conventional max hrc = 1. adding boat load of variables. 2. not much to compare anyway because max hrc conventional ht blade are too brittle. While I've shown mine 68+rc 10v & M4 are performed nifty well. So, I choose the route of showing other/world to ht 68+rc 10v/m4 and test themselves. Keep doing it if you like the result.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 10, 2016 02:21PM
are you going to list the CWF steps? video was just pictures of blades. just something basic like:
heat furnace to ? degree C
insert blade. equalize. soak for ? minutes
quench in ? for ? seconds
temper at ? degrees C for ? minute

thanks
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 10, 2016 03:37PM
I will video walk through the entire CWF ht process.

Summary steps. Then show step by step (obviously - I will need to cut out the waiting and repetitive times)

Saturate aust matrix - whatever appropriate aust temp+soak for steel in video
CWF steps - will yak about what each step supposed to do (reality may differ than what in my head) - what I think could be ideal but settle for practical
Probably: show hardness test
Optional: put on quick edge and whack stuff when blade is basically untempered at peak hrc

I plan use 2 steels for this video - probably high alloy (deep hardening) so I don't have to worry about avoiding PN.

Quote
oldsailorsknives
are you going to list the CWF steps? video was just pictures of blades. just something basic like:
heat furnace to ? degree C
insert blade. equalize. soak for ? minutes
quench in ? for ? seconds
temper at ? degrees C for ? minute

thanks



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2016 03:39PM by bluntcut.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 10, 2016 07:23PM
Quote
bluntcut
While I've shown mine 68+rc 10v & M4 are performed nifty well.

That is the point, without controls/references you have not shown that. It is in fact possible that the performance you have shown is actually degraded compared to stock HT.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 10, 2016 08:28PM
Pick a steel - conventional ht max rc AQ edge won't survive cutting nor chopping Lignum Vitae - at all. I've done that in testing many times before. Whittle black bamboo - which is much easier - but will destroy those edge too. Done that before as well. Let's just wait and see how others use CWF ht and test their results.

Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
bluntcut
While I've shown mine 68+rc 10v & M4 are performed nifty well.

That is the point, without controls/references you have not shown that. It is in fact possible that the performance you have shown is actually degraded compared to stock HT.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
July 11, 2016 05:40PM
BC, I don't know why you keep saying using a conventional steel as-quenched will not be productive, that is generally only argued to be used until low stress abrasive work where fracture toughness isn't an issue.

My point was that unless you have a reference you have no way of knowing that the performance you have achieved is actually even equal to a standard hardened blade, with the recommended cycle for a given application, let alone superior.
me2
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
August 09, 2016 06:37AM
Nearly a month and no further comment? I can't be the only one who thinks this is interesting, though I'll admit to a large dose of skepticism as to why/theorized mechanisms.
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
August 09, 2016 10:05AM
no posts here but plenty on BF. reading the step by step instructions he posted 8/5(http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1409721-Heat-Treatment-Crystal-Weaving-Foundation/page12?highlight=bluntcut) it appears he is marquenching(fast oil to 900F then 450F oil for a minute or three then slow(one degree F per minute) cool to 200F, air cool to room temp, then cryo, then 275F temper. I don't understand why he fights against testing his method VS. regular HT.

scott
[www.etsy.com]
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
August 09, 2016 10:33AM
He posted this video about 3 days ago on YouTube BCWM Crystal Weaving Foundation and Applied Heat Treatment
Re: Heat Treatment - Crystal Weaving Foundation
August 09, 2016 11:28AM
Jeremy,
I saw the YouTube posted, but I haven't watched the latest one yet...I still have to watch the series from the beginning when I feel fresh enough to be able to concentrate.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
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