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Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101

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Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 09, 2016 11:10PM
Jason,

When you have steels that vary in 1-2 elements and those elements are well studied, then you can predict properties, taking care about predictions being just that, predictions. However beyond that, when multiple elements change, the most you can do is make generalizations about larger changes but even then unless the compositions are very different, it is not at all trivial to compare from elements. In modern metallurgy this is done using very complex network models.

For example someone could look at M2 vs 5160, not knowing anything about the steels and from metallurgy alone :

-M2 likely has a higher max hardness, strength, wear resistance and obviously hot hardness
-5160 likely has a much higher impact toughness and ductility

This is like looking at an Olympic athlete in track and a sumo and predicting who would win a foot race. But if you try to compare something like 5160, vs A8 vs 3V it is like looking at a much of college track and field athletes and from pictures trying to predict who will place where. Plus HT is likely going to be far more of an influence.

However if someone does a HT on 5160 and it isn't tougher than M2 then they really don't know what they are doing.
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 09, 2016 11:33PM
Cliff,
Thank you, that's very helpful information. I was thinking a little while ago, reading in knife manufacturers catalogues, how the steels they use are described, and that this along with other marketing, can lead to an oversimplification and misinformation in a complex field.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 10, 2016 03:40AM
Quote
C Amber
But many of the feats of INFI can be matched by other steels, if heat treated well, ground appropriately, and sharpened well.

For instance the 24 2x4s or whatever it was. I've done similar with 5160 (albeit in a larger blade).

Yes, some steels can do some things that INFI can, but no steel can do all of them.

Cliff,
I once read somewhere (long ago, I think it was on KnifeForums) that INFI @ 58-60HRC has the impact toughness of S7 @ 57-59HRC, the wear resistance of A2 @ 58-60HRC and the corrosion resistance of D2, how does that sound? Does it make sense?
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 10, 2016 11:29AM
Quote
SVallieres
Yes, some steels can do some things that INFI can, but no steel can do all of them.

I'm not sure about that. The thing is, no one has actually tried to do all those things. They are overwhelmed by the marketing put forth by Jerry.

Now to be clear, I think whatever INFI is, that he chose a really appropriate steel for what he markets his blades to do. I give him a ton of credit for that, and I think INFI is a wonderful blade steel, and I respect his actually understanding performance and choosing a steel that supports it.

And I also think it represents an incredibly good set of features to create a really well rounded knife. In particular it's pretty great he can get all the toughness of a a mid carbon steel at a good hardness with good corrosion resistance. And maybe in that sense the statement is right, but I guess I am troubled by the belief that there is nothing even close.

However, when people say "it can't do all the things INFI does", well, what things exactly are being talked about? I'm assuming the 10 or so things from the original marketing add.
-the push cutting all that rope? Cliff has explained why INFI was able to do that...and it was also done to similar amounts by David Boye with a steel completely opposite in nature (cast 440C)...bc that's not a test of wear resistance like most people think
-the cut through 10 1" pieces of rope? Bc that has nothing to do with steel...but geometry. And while again, I have a lot of respect for Jerry, none of the 20+ blades I have seen come out of Busse have had a geometry that oculd come close to that. Was that Battle Mistress ground like the one I bought?
-The driven through a .25 piece of steel...that's an issue of strength. If you drive it straight through with no lateral load, we're not testing toughness so much anymore as I understand it...maybe I'm wrong there.
-the cutting through 2x4s, I've already mentioned that

The thing I was thinking about the other day is that if INFI really was head and tails better than every other steel, if it's overall qualities were that much better, or there was nothing comparable, I find it really hard to believe that Jerry wouldn't have sold the formula to an industry that uses it on a much larger scale than his company (which yes, is successful). But if it really is tougher than 5160 and corrosion resistant, well, I have to believe he could make a lot more money selling it as leaf springs to the automobile industry.

To close though, I do want to reiterate the respect I have for INFI as a steel for choppers/hard use knives. It does represent a wonderful collection of qualities, and again, one that is incredibly well rounded. And Jerry deserves the credit for finding that steel. I'm just not convinced it's as magically better it has come to be believed, especially in actual use.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 10, 2016 10:13PM
Quote
C_Amber
if INFI really was head and tails better than every other steel, if it's overall qualities were that much better, or there was nothing comparable, I find it really hard to believe that Jerry wouldn't have sold the formula to an industry that uses it on a much larger scale than his company (which yes, is successful). But if it really is tougher than 5160 and corrosion resistant, well, I have to believe he could make a lot more money selling it as leaf springs to the automobile industry.

Good point, and not just for leaf springs, there are probably many industrial applications where a combination of high toughness, high strength, moderate wear resistance and fairly good corrosion resistance are desirable. It's surprising that Busse hasn't sold the INFI's formula but it's also surprising that no tool steel company has duplicated it.
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 10, 2016 10:52PM
Well, that's what makes me believe it's not that proprietary or that 'special really'. More so just the right steel for the right application, marketed well.

Fwiw too, there is no patent on INFI. And even if there was, it would be expiring soon I would think...20 years right?

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 10, 2016 10:57PM
I just did another patent search to make sure. Jerry does have several patents, for locking folders/fixed blades and a blade profile. But nothing for a steel composition

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Always in search of a good choppa'
cKc
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 10, 2016 11:10PM
I believe he has said before that infi is not a steel. It's his name for the steel+heat treatment protocol.

Why patent something if no one knows what you are doing. You can't reverse engineer a heat treatment protocol

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 11, 2016 12:41AM
I'd never heard that before Kyley. If that is the case, you make a good point.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 11, 2016 04:38AM
Very good points guys.

Moreover, I've seen different chemical compositions through the years over a couple of forums. It is not that expensive to have a chemical make up analysis, I once called a metallurgical laboratory to have an estimation of the cost, and it was a couple of hundred dollars which is too expensive for me but not too expensive for many people and even cheap for tool steels companies. In fact, some people did it. Here is a couple of threads of interest:

[www.bladeforums.com]

Posts # 1-15-39-46 are of interest.


[www.bladeforums.com]

Posts # 47 is of interest


I couldn't find back the thread (on BF) where there is a scan of the paper with the results of an INFI blade chemical analysis but I know there's one...


By not publishing the chemical composition of INFI, Busse is able to change it at will and even use a known steel and still call it INFI. Maybe INFI right now is actually one known steel and 10 years ago it was another... But one thing for sure no matter what INFI is, it has a blend of many desirable properties for knife blades: very high impact toughness @ high hardness, moderate wear resistance and fairly good corrosion resistance for a non-stainless steel.

If I were a knifemaker, I would try to find a steel with that blend of properties and would probably be unsatisfied of my product until I find one..
cKc
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 11, 2016 06:50AM
Quote
C Amber
I'd never heard that before Kyley. If that is the case, you make a good point.

INFI is a proprietary steel and heat-treat protocol developed by Busse Combat Knife Co. It is ONLY available through Busse Combat.

[www.bussecombat.com]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 11, 2016 03:44PM
Thanks Kyley. I had read that before on the website, but I hadn't paid that much attention to the heat treat protocol statement. On BF, it is typically just referenced as being the steel only, and Jerry rarely actually clarifies anything with regards to actual procedures and technical info at Busse,

SV, I think there are several steels that fit the description you're saying. Ztuff, Caldie from BU, Carpenter Micromelt CD#1. However, the problem is often sourcing them in custom knifemaker quantities. I have tried to get CD#1 for instance but unless I was going to order a couple of tons it wasn't happening. And Caldie isn't imported here in the US. That is probably where Jerry has a lot of success in getting his hands on that class of steel...he does enough volume to order industrial quantities.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 11, 2016 04:13PM
Shouldn't the Busse Combat be a great example of knife design? It's surprising that more people don't design knives like this, were the elements are purposely made and selected to achieve a set design goal, ie stock thickness, grind, steel, heat treatment, handles, are all selected and executed for a set of attributes, making the design purpose built.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 11, 2016 04:29PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Shouldn't the Busse Combat be a great example of knife design?

There has to be historical context realized here. If you look at Busse now and look at what is available now and what is done now then you might be confused as to why Busse is popular. But it was not always that way.

Busse rose to dominance in the late 90's and early 2000's when there was no one at all doing the kind of public demonstrations that Busse was doing, and no one at all that had a guarantee like Busse, and no one at all talking about actual properties of steel in a meaningful way.[*]

On one hand you had Busse who was :
  • doing constant testing on blades, looking at edges under microscopes
  • using actual metallurgy in HT
  • doing public demonstrations (and inviting other people to participate)
  • guarantee of all claims

In contrast you had what? People making large knives, axes and swords out of ATS-34, no actual performance statements and even a hint at evaluation or questions of performance would send people reeling.

That was why Busse became popular, and with such a huge following it can be easily maintained.

[*] To be clear, I mean mass market. People like Fikes were doing this but almost no one was aware of it because he wasn't net active, had extremely low volume *and* it was mystified by the aura about forging.
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 11, 2016 05:06PM
Cliff,
I remember that. I guess you are right, the knife industry has changed, and Busse was very influential in how things are done now. It just seems to me he does the purpose built design almost to perfection, very few people can achieve that.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 12, 2016 04:12AM
Quote
C Amber
SV, I think there are several steels that fit the description you're saying. Ztuff, Caldie from BU, Carpenter Micromelt CD#1...

They seem to be good choices indeed.


Quote
C Amber
... And Caldie isn't imported here in the US...

That's kind of strange, as it's available here in Canada.

We have Viking too.

I wonder how K890 would perform in a knife blade. I'm under the impression it could be a good alternative to CPM-3V.
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 12, 2016 09:29AM
Maybe things have changed. When I contacted the BU rep (John Steedman) a few years ago he said they weren't available. Maybe he meant they weren't available unless I was going to order a full mill run or something like that.

The K890 does look interesting too.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
December 21, 2016 09:52PM
What do you guys make of the following Bladesforum exchange concerning INFI?:


theonew


There once was a time on Bladeforums when men could do crazy things to their knives and other men, who were knowledgeable about steel and knife performance, could discuss it without being incessantly trolled while doing so.


Oh well, good things never last. Brand Nannies are running the show.




theonew


​1.Quote Originally Posted by sodak View Post

I'd go even further and say that if the edge angle is over 20 or 25 deg, the results aren't interesting to me. Any steel should be able to handle that.



Agree completely.
That is the reason I stopped buying INFI.





theonew


I found the thread.

I have to say that my experience with INFI is similar to Vassili's. Busse knives come from the factory with thick primary grinds and secondary bevels easily +/- 20 per side. Sure they can be sharpened to split a hair but the overall package doesn't function very efficiently for regular tasks like slicing cardboard. I thin all my Busses to about 15 per side and convex the shoulder and they look pretty much like Vassili's pictures. If this constitutes major modification to a knife then I'm just at a loss for words.

I do also find the edge stability of INFI at acute angles, >=15, to be less than sturdy. I've rolled the edge on my Cultellus opening a clamshell pack. I've had dents and dings on the edge just from impacts on wood. INFI is a great steel for a variety of reasons but come on guys it still has its limitations. If you want uber-toughness you are going to have to sacrifice something and with INFI, in my experience, it is edge stability. When I first got my Game Warden I thinned it down to about 8 degrees per side and the edge was like an overcooked noodle. All of my Barkies have been thinned to 8 - 10 degrees and have maintained their edge stability so well that I haven't considered bringing the angle back up. But would these Barkies perform like a Busse in terms of overall toughness?, I highly doubt it


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I have 3 zero edged, or very deeply re-profiled, Aus-6 Al Mar SERE 3003a/b folders, that must be at or under 8-10 dps.... I used them for chopping dead Maple, and the lockbar pin sheared out of alignment from the impacts (on a previous 3003b the lockbar pin completely sheared off), and yet the ultra-thin Aus-6 edge in BOTH cases showed very little, if any, damage from this extremely low angle being used for chopping (40 chops at least), while the entire handle mechanism completely collapsed from the use...

Considering the above quotes concerning INFI, I wonder how well INFI would have held up compared to Aus-6 at the same below 8-10 dps angles...

And if it only works well at very open angles, what does it really offer over other steels?

Note how flawless the sub-10 dps Aus-6 edge is below, despite being subjected to forces that completely destroyed the entire knife...



Just wondering, since low edge angles and INFI appear to be unmixable...

Gaston
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
December 21, 2016 10:28PM
If the tide has turned that dramatically, it's remarkable.

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Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
December 22, 2016 04:39AM
When comparing steels, it has to be done on similar loads, ideally almost identical knives. Any time things change aside from what is being compared the conclusions start to get very uncertain.

In particular, when a knife is subjected to an impact the loads will be constrained severely due to the load of a knife. Hence why a 7" knife can easily handle work of the same effort in say chopping but a 10" knife in the same edge geometry can be severely damaged because the loads can easily be ~2x as heavy.

In regards to AUS-6A, properly hardened I would expect it to be of similar strength to INFI, but likely it would be slightly weaker as it is doubtful that AUS-6A gets cryogenics, oil quench, etc., hence it is likely 54-56 HRC and has higher RA than INFI.

In regards to Busse and the above, I do find the claims of knives from Bark River holding up at 8-10 degrees are amusing at best. If anyone takes that seriously see if you can get a claim from Mike Stewart that is the EXPECTED performance. If he does, I will buy one of the knives, actually regrind it to 8 degrees per side and show how easily it fails doing mild chopping, on video of course.

I have seen no knife (of significant size) which can chop wood at ~8 dps, unless the wood is large/clear like open white pine.
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
September 17, 2017 08:10PM
Only thing that bothers me after years of owning Busse stuff, is SR-101 patinas easily and it is annoying trying to keep my limited edition ones shiny while also using them regularly. Seriously just my fingerprints are enough to cause patina, which means I have to keep the knife clean. What a bother.
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
May 21, 2020 02:22AM
Hi Cliff , over the years of using and testing knives , what do you think 5160 and L6 for making choppers?
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
June 04, 2020 12:02AM
Quote
dingy
Hi Cliff , over the years of using and testing knives , what do you think 5160 and L6 for making choppers?

I think simple steels are best, make sure that you get one that the maker is very comfortable with. Ideally :

-tapered tang, annealed
-partially hardened blade, spine annealed

Maximize the length to the point you can just control it, for me that is 14-16", and as heavy as you can swing for a long time with decent fatigue. For me that is ~1 - 1.5 kg. I like a long handle for multi-positioning that way I can evenly spread wear all along the blade.
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
June 04, 2020 09:45AM
Cliff, you’re here again!

Have you read Larrins toughness tests, where he proofs that A8mod steel is no tougher than cpm-3v? Infi is basically A8mod, so Infi is not tougher than cpm-3v!
cKc
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
June 04, 2020 11:29AM
Quote
hugofeynman
Cliff, you’re here again!

Have you read Larrins toughness tests, where he proofs that A8mod steel is no tougher than cpm-3v? Infi is basically A8mod, so Infi is not tougher than cpm-3v!

Can you link to that article on Larrins site. that sounds like he might be testing a very specific toughness, not all of them

in his recent 48 steels im concerned a little at the correlation of the toughness chart to the others.

the main chart for example says the O1 is 60.? rc which is the optimal range for toughness of O1

then in the toughness chart O1 is shown as 58.5rc and 15ft/lbs which doesn't correlate well with the test blade, or the ideal hardness of O1.

reference tool steels book for O1 and its toughness peaks when tempered to just over 60rc

i couldn't find which type of toughness test larrin was doing.

Cruicible ranks 3v @ 60rc to have 95 joules Charpy C-notch impact test (70ft lbs)
I've heard reference that cnotch is similar result to unnotched.. in which 01 at 60 in the tools steels book reaches over 90ft lbs...
but crucible c-notch their 01 at 30, but they dont have a number for the 60-62 range which is where o1 should reach peak toughness. weird

hard to correlate some of this information




it can be very tricky to correlate all this data in a useful way especially in terms of edge retention.

for example.

O1 @ 60RC is much tougher than Elmax @60rc, significantly so..

so if you are going to pick Elmax because of better edge retention you could also say, well lets make the o1 64rc...


so either test all steels at same RC,
or test all steels at same Toughness
or test all steels at the optimal grind and hardness/toughness balance where some can go thinner, some cannot.

there is a lot of data there, but i personally dont want to know how AEBL @60RC compares to M390@60RC at the same Geometry when AEBL can go significantly thinner and therefore be easier to sharpen, easier to maintain, and sway the edge retention significantly in its favor.

how to interpret the data. thats the battle

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2020 11:32AM by cKc.
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
June 04, 2020 12:25PM
Regarding O1:


[knifesteelnerds.com]
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
June 04, 2020 12:40PM
Regarding A8mod charpy toughness:

[knifesteelnerds.com]
cKc
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
June 04, 2020 01:00PM
Quote
hugofeynman
Regarding O1:


[knifesteelnerds.com]

thanks for the link. problem is that o1 is a spec, and they are all subtly different. i've only used k460 which has vanadium. Crucible ketos does not.
not sure which o1 is being referred to here.

i need to find out from Larrin sometime where his numbers for O1 are coming from, and how its tested, because it doesn't match up with my own experience with K460 or the charts im reading.

this is showing a continual decline in toughness.


vs this chart that clearly shows that O1 actual ramps up in toughness to a sweet spot before it starts declining.. now maybe Larrin is testing a different type of toughness. not sure,


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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
June 04, 2020 01:20PM
need to do more searching.. sometimes google fu just can't find what you are looking for. dont have enough facts in my hand to dispute the above data.. i just have unanswered queries in my mind.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Jerry's Input on 3v, Infi, Sr-101
June 04, 2020 03:49PM
Quote
hugofeynman


Have you read Larrins toughness tests, where he proofs that A8mod steel is no tougher than cpm-3v? Infi is basically A8mod, so Infi is not tougher than cpm-3v!

No, if you give me a link, I'll have a look at it.