Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum

Posted by CliffStamp 
Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 03, 2012 05:28PM
Knives :

-Spyderco Pacific Salt, H1, 57-58 HRC, 6.5 dps grind
-Reeve Small Sebenza, S30V, 58-59 HRC, 4.5 dps grind
-Byrd Meadowlark, 8Cr13MoV, 61 HRC, 5 dps
-Kershaw Vapor, AUS-6A, 5 dps
-Spyderco Delica, ZDP-189, 64 HRC, 6.5 dps
-ER Fulcrum, N690, 58 HRC, 11 dps

As a continuation of work on the BushBuddy : [www.cliffstamp.com] a bunch of other knives with similar very low edge angles were used to cut :

-50 slices into pine, hardwood flooring and plywood
-10 cuts of plastic screw ties
-a ring off a food can

I dropped some of the other cutting (cardboard, pop bottles) as it was too light and doing nothing (so does the pine but I burn the shavings). A couple of points of use :

-all knives were finished with a 10 dps micro-bevel off of a 1000 grit waterstone aside from the Fulcrum which had a 13 dps bevel.
-the force was 50 lbs with peaks of 70 dps on the knot cutting


The results :

-all knives were uneffected by the wood or ties aside from the Vapor which had total edge collapse on the hardwood flooring

The rest of the damage in short :

-Salt, 0.003" deep at maximum, denting and rolling
-Delica, 0.008" deep at maximum, fracture
-Byrd, 0.008" deep at maximum, fracture
-Sebenza, 0.020" deep at maximum, fracture
-Fulcrum, 0.0015" deep at maximum, fracture

A few notes :

-the Vapor never performed right, as bought the edge would chip when sharpening and always tended to form heavy burrs
-the Sebenza similar always had problems with edge fragility and would chip much easier than other knives
-the Fulcrum has a MUCH heavier profile than the other knives

Note that the knife here consider to be the brute has the same grind as the classic Mora/Puukko, the other knives are all much thinner in cross section as the grinds are much higher.

A couple of surprising notes :

-the Reeve is the worst user knife due to the ergonomics
-the Fulcrum is the best simply because while it is mentally shaped it is big any all of the edges are rounded

In short, the main point of this is that aside from one knife which is clearly a defect, edge angles of 4-6 dps are easily stable enough for even heavy utility work and it takes significant metal cutting to damage them and even then with the tougher steels it isn't significant.
me2
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 03, 2012 06:02PM
The profile of the Delica is very close to what I'm running now on my Parker Cutlery Trapper, 7 dps and a 10 dps micro bevel off the 1000 grit water stone. I didn't do as much heavy work as you did here, but I did cut a lot of aluminum cans and did some light chopping into the hard plastic tops of some soda bottles. It was also used to split a couple of soda bottle caps. I need to flatten my coarse stone and reset the low bevel. I never did set a 10 dps microbevel with the 204 stones. The trapper did take damage after cutting through over 300 inches of aluminum. However, after 250 inches, it was still able to whittle beard hair. It also took some damage after cutting some copper wire, but so did the other blade on the trapper, and it's set at 17/20 bevel/microbevel on the 204.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 03, 2012 06:06PM
Uh oh, Cliff is in full sharpening mode. Up next, choppers at dps?
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 03, 2012 07:11PM
Quote
me2
It also took some damage after cutting some copper wire, but so did the other blade on the trapper, and it's set at 17/20 bevel/microbevel on the 204.

I was trying to find a bunch of wire on Friday but didn't that was the only think I was thinking was sensible to add as heavy utility without doing something fairly abstract like cutting up coat hangers.

Quote
Chum
Uh oh, Cliff is in full sharpening mode.

These are all really old blades, I had had them for 5-7 years and they have all been like that within maybe a year of use.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 04, 2012 03:13AM
What exactly do you mean by fracture?
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 04, 2012 02:07PM
Chipping, the mode of failure is completely different, and even worse the extent of damage continues beyond what is visible as the fractures will extend past what can be seen, the pieces removed are just where the fracture lines intersect.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 04, 2012 02:13PM
That doesn't sound good at all
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 04, 2012 05:52PM
You have to keep in mind that these edge angles are very low, 4.5-6.5 dps so the edge thickness which is getting damaged is far less than the depth (or width) of the damage. As a rough estimate, divide the depth by 5 to get an estimate of the thickness of the steel so the ZDP-189 Delica was taking damage less than a thickness of 0.002", which is 50 microns. This is a high carbide steel and it will have aggregates in the range of 0.001" in size and thus at very low angles you have to see fracture as there is no steel around the carbides.

The simplest way to understand it is to think of concrete. Concrete is made up out of cement, water and sand, and you use rock as a filler (and to add compressive strength and wear resistance - very similar to carbide in steel). Now what happens if you try to pour carbide thinner than the size of the rocks - it becomes not only difficult to finish it is very fragile as you are working the concrete the rocks come out of it as if the rocks are 1" in size and the concrete slab is only 1" thick then how can the rocks be held in place? Same thin happens in steel when it gets as thin as the carbides.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 05, 2012 05:02AM
Well that is a good analogy. So my guess is that you wouldn't take these knives lower than 10dps
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 05, 2012 05:48AM
This is a very interesting thread. Cliff, if possible could you take some pictures of the knives side by side?

Made me wish I still had my original Sebenza.
What on earth persuaded you to buy a CRK? I thought of all people you'd know better than to pay 400+$ for a low end super-steel given a low hardness and with a grossly un-egronomic design. Don't get me wrong, stylistically the sebenza is..... artistic perhaps is the kindest description, a study in modern minimalism, but its hardly what you'd call a high functioning design. Even Strider's screwball combination of curves and squares I find to be more egronomic, although hardly what I'd call a miracle of design.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 05, 2012 11:44AM
Quote
Hunterseeker5
What on earth persuaded you to buy a CRK?

Peer pressure, I so desperately wanted to fit in.

Quote

Even Strider's screwball combination of curves and squares I find to be more egronomic, although hardly what I'd call a miracle of design.

I had a phone call with Reeve years ago where he called me after I made comments on his forum on BF which were not positive (mainly on how he was hardening the steel). He threatened legal action if I continued and went on a tirade about how could I comment on the steel since I didn't own a Sebenza (I had used one previously).

While his legal threats were a bit off, he did have a bit of a point as maybe there was something he was doing which was innovative regarding the steel which was simply not known in the literature about HT. I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. It also isn't a risk purchase, it isn't like I would have a hard time selling it for close to the price I bought it, they always go up in price anyway.

I doubt I will though as it amuses me from time to time that someone would put so much effort into something in some aspects and leave it very nonfunctional as they ignored other more critical aspects.


Quote
styx
Well that is a good analogy. So my guess is that you wouldn't take these knives lower than 10dps

If you want to cut up food cans and keep the edge pristine. The Vapor is just a bad knife, I included it as I was curious if it had the strength. I have no idea what they do to steels, but they seriously under harden them. This files easier than a CS machete and the edge was also brittle as-boxed which is a wonderful combination of soft + brittle.

Quote
marthinus
This is a very interesting thread. Cliff, if possible could you take some pictures of the knives side by side?

No problem, you can see them in the video which is uploading as I recorded all the work.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 05, 2012 03:01PM
Sharpening :

These knives had the main chips cut in half, 99% of the blade has no damage after honing :

-Delica, ZDP-189, 8 minutes on 180 grit
-Byrd, 8Cr13MoV, 5 minutes on 180 grit
-Sebenza, S30V, 12 minutes, 180 grit

Double the time to remove all damage.

These knives had no damage after sharpening :

-Salt, H1, 1 minute on 180 grit
-Vapor, AUS-6A, 1 minute on 180 grit
-ER, 1 minute on 180 grit

It is very clear how the steel grindability can make a large influence in sharpening as can issues like inherent poor performance (Sebenza for example) and how a suitable angle (Fulcrum) also is critical.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 05, 2012 06:10PM
Video :






This is rather curious on YT's part, this was a big file and took a long time to upload and it appears to have stopped and restarted multiple times because at one point I was showing three of the files being uploaded and processed.
Its worth mentioning briefly regarding the Salt in H1, which is allegedly work hardening from the grinder is apparently an important factor in hardening the edge and improving edge retention. That doesn't necessarily nullify your result, because a knife's performance is equally as relevant brand new fresh as well as used and loved, but the result may have been different had the knife been ground on a machine grinder. If you're looking for more speculation on this work hardening phenomenon there is a bit more on the Spyder forums.


Regarding CRK. I don't mean to call you a liar, but the sheer absurdity of your claim regarding Mr. Reeves' actions I would have considered to be an "embellishment" had I not heard identical stories from other users. I lack first hand experience with this specific issue thankfully, but its of constant amazement to me what an unrestrained temper many of these knife "icons" have. I remember vividly the scale of fallout from JDavis' "revelation" that S35vn had edge stability issues in his testing. To deny data is to fundamentally deny science, which if you're prepared to dispute what exactly would the purpose of a PM steel be for example? Its still the same shiny metal as ingot steels, its only with science that a difference can be discerend. Back to the point: data is never wrong, methods/experiements can have issues, but your results stand whether or not you like them. I personally questioned the relative subjectivity of his results, and it would have been reasonably easy to form a sufficiently scientifc test (something like a specific force applied to the spine of a variety of steels held at consistent edge angles) combined with a relatively cheap digital scope to prove his point. Regardless I am usually prepared to take "internet people" at their word, not because I believe humans are fundamentally trustworthy, but because any data is easy enough to fake if you accept it all as a passive observer. If you don't like the way something comes out, and you want to see if it is indeed true, you may simply replicate the experiment yourself. Its not that hard. If you hate the data collected by the people doing testing and with the balls to publish their work, do it yourself. I'd also like to note that, with the exception of Jim who has taken plenty of flaming despite pretty grossly simple straightforward testing procedures, essentially everyone who has done any real testing and made it public on BF has been driven off. Of particular note are people who search for the failure point of products.


But I digress.......
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 05, 2012 09:03PM
Quote
Hunterseeker5
Its worth mentioning briefly regarding the Salt in H1, which is allegedly work hardening from the grinder is apparently an important factor in hardening the edge and improving edge retention.

I believe what is happening is an extension of the precipitation from aging. While Spyderco has confirmed that grinding the serrations does increase the hardness they have never confirmed normal sharpening would, though it gets implied a lot. I ran this knife stock and then well used/sharpened and noticed no difference in edge retention and the hardness is not 60+ even now at the edge.

Quote

Regarding CRK. I don't mean to call you a liar, but the sheer absurdity of your claim regarding Mr. Reeves' actions I would have considered to be an "embellishment" had I not heard identical stories from other users.

It is what it is, I don't have much of an incentive to make it up, but it isn't like I recorded the conversation. But I would not expect someone to actually believe it unless they knew me personally.


Quote

Back to the point: data is never wrong, methods/experiements can have issues, but your results stand whether or not you like them. I personally questioned the relative subjectivity of his results, and it would have been reasonably easy to form a sufficiently scientifc test (something like a specific force applied to the spine of a variety of steels held at consistent edge angles) combined with a relatively cheap digital scope to prove his point.

That is the point, the data is just that numbers, where it comes from is the critical point. After I watched a few of his video's I pointed out a few things he was doing which could add a lot of variability he was not taking into account. He replied that he was not trying to be scientific (that is a pet peeve of mine when people say that and they have graduated high school, you would think they would know what the word means). I noted that regardless of the terms he was reaching conclusions which were not well supported - and so he blocked me from commenting on his channel. He later remove the block but I had no interest in commenting on that point as if you don't want to learn there is little point in talking. Curious thing though as it only takes a few simple steps to make the results decently stable.


Quote

...everyone who has done any real testing and made it public on BF has been driven off. Of particular note are people who search for the failure point of products.

While it can be a bit of a easy target to attack BF for bias, at the end of the day it came down to this - Spark looked at a lot of money he could make by letting it be maker/manufacturer driven and chose that. It is really no different than if Coke walked up to you on the street and said here is $50, 000 now tell everyone you like Coke. If you do this for the rest of your life I will give you $50, 000 a year. Now I really would not blame someone if they said ok, even if they really didn't like Coke. That is all Spark did, no more, no less. Yes it would have been nice if Mike Turber's original vision held - but it burned Turber out and Spark just ran it like a business.

As Ted DiBiase says, "Everyone has a price for the Million Dollar Man"



Quote
Cliff Stamp
It is what it is, I don't have much of an incentive to make it up, but it isn't like I recorded the conversation. But I would not expect someone to actually believe it unless they knew me personally.

And yet if you read my statement closely, you'd realize I was affirming your assertion regarding CRK, not denying it, and the purpose of the statement was to highlight the high profile absurdidty of Chris Reeves. Unless of course you recognized that, and your comment simply didn't reflect it.


Quote
Cliff Stamp
While it can be a bit of a easy target to attack BF for bias, at the end of the day it came down to this - Spark looked at a lot of money he could make by letting it be maker/manufacturer driven and chose that.........

As a moderator of other forums, I've long disagreed with the way BF is run. Bans are handed out wontonly, threads and posts are constantly being censored, the entire community isn't really interested in debate, and the "shakedown" that is the paid memberships for use of the FS by individuals subforums is absurd. While its Spark's perrogative to surplant honest work with Bladeforums income, and its certainly not my forum so he is welcome to do as he likes, the argument that paid subforums from manufacturers and paid ad revenue with site traffic as high as BF is simply absurd. I've believed that truth, honesty of the record, and free and open membership to all are the hallmarks of a great forum. Of course it seems that most BF members are extremely happy to pay to sell and in fact will spit vitriol should you suggest otherwise. Power to them? In my opinion that makes their for-sale forums an unplesant place to be, because there is a surplus of buyers relative to sellers so prices are artificially inflated. Good for the relative few paying members who sell I guess. I do take solace in seeing manufacturers consistently taking unfriendly fire on BF though from dissatisfied customers, Tomas W. even left BF. Why does that amuse me? Because it shows what an untennable situation has been created. If you don't allow scientific demonstration/discussion what are you left with? Primarily sappy useless "what should I buy" or "OMG new knife is amazzzzzzzzing" threads and threads saying "I bought something, and don't have the first f*cking clue how customer service works, so I'm going to vent here" threads. It makes the forums be, at best, of little value to the manufacturers and at worse a major source of lost revenue. I even like Spyderco very much, but they are taking some nasty fire on the forums right now for not one but TWO recent releases of theirs. There is the Nikkala (can't sp.) which sparked this discussion, and there is the Tuff which, while apparently a mystery to some, clearly had the apex of arc on their blade tang land off the side of the blade ergo applying force to the blade spine will cause it to simply disengage. Then again why the Tuff was given a framelock at all is beyond me, but having worked with him I very much respect Sal Glesser as a man, and you can see he very much wants to make right. I do think there should be a stated policy on the forums that if you're unwilling to send your blade in for an assessment by the factory, you shouldn't be allowed to complain.

How is it that every time I want to make just a short post, it turns into a rant, predominantly off-topic as well? tongue sticking out smiley
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 06, 2012 09:57AM
Quote
Hunterseeker5

Unless of course you recognized that, and your comment simply didn't reflect it.

Yes, I was just noting in general that it doesn't bother me and I would in fact expect a measure of doubt, it is a healthy thing in any discussion - obedience and subservience is a thing of religion.


Quote

While its Spark's perrogative to surplant honest work with Bladeforums income, and its certainly not my forum so he is welcome to do as he likes, the argument that paid subforums from manufacturers and paid ad revenue with site traffic as high as BF is simply absurd.

What is absurd exactly - that there is significant revenue there?

Quote

I do take solace in seeing manufacturers consistently taking unfriendly fire on BF though from dissatisfied customers, Tomas W. even left BF.

The Kershaw rep?

Quote

I do think there should be a stated policy on the forums that if you're unwilling to send your blade in for an assessment by the factory, you shouldn't be allowed to complain.

I am not sure I would agree with that because for example consider if I received a knife with a pretty significant fault which I could correct, it isn't like I would send it in and pay shipping and then risk duty/brokerage on the return. In fact even if I could not fix it, often the cost of a return can be higher for me than a replacement, especially if it isn't fixed the first time. I do think if the manufacturer offers to pay cost then you should be obligated from a moral perspective.

That being said, I have never refused if a maker/manufacturer asks, but I would demand everyone else do the same.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 06, 2012 11:36AM
The only real issue I have with BF is the rash of people coming in lately and literally putting cheaper production knives under a microscope and complaining about F&F issues, and going on and on about it like it's the end of the world when it's something that can't even be seen with the naked eye, or barely noticeable.

I can tolerate a lot, but sometimes it does tend to get old.

They also could slow down the pile ons if they wanted to.

If someone has an issue with a knife they really need to contact the manufacturer 1st instead of starting a thread on a public forum IMO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2012 11:42AM by Ankerson.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 06, 2012 06:28PM
Quote
Ankerson
The only real issue I have with BF is the rash of people coming in lately and literally putting cheaper production knives under a microscope and complaining about F&F issues, and going on and on about it like it's the end of the world when it's something that can't even be seen with the naked eye, or barely noticeable.

Unless a maker sells on this, then it is stretch to complain about it. Spyderco handles this well in general as often they get complaints about issues that I often can not even see when they put up a picture. Now Reeve for example always promoted fit/finish so people have taken him to task, but even then judging finish under magnification is a bit odd, do you really think that the product is being made under magnification - if not then you can't check it like that obviously.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 06, 2012 07:08PM
Here is a shot of some of the regrinds with a couple of as-boxed grinds for comparison :

Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 07, 2012 10:51AM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
Ankerson
The only real issue I have with BF is the rash of people coming in lately and literally putting cheaper production knives under a microscope and complaining about F&F issues, and going on and on about it like it's the end of the world when it's something that can't even be seen with the naked eye, or barely noticeable.

Unless a maker sells on this, then it is stretch to complain about it. Spyderco handles this well in general as often they get complaints about issues that I often can not even see when they put up a picture. Now Reeve for example always promoted fit/finish so people have taken him to task, but even then judging finish under magnification is a bit odd, do you really think that the product is being made under magnification - if not then you can't check it like that obviously.

That's very true, if the makers bread and butter is based on F&F then it had better be right.

I haven't seen a knife that I can't find something if I shoot it with my 105mm Macro Lens and look at the photos, but that's really looking though.
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote

While its Spark's perrogative to surplant honest work with Bladeforums income, and its certainly not my forum so he is welcome to do as he likes, the argument that paid subforums from manufacturers and paid ad revenue with site traffic as high as BF is simply absurd.

What is absurd exactly - that there is significant revenue there?

Quote

I do take solace in seeing manufacturers consistently taking unfriendly fire on BF though from dissatisfied customers, Tomas W. even left BF.

The Kershaw rep?

Quote

I do think there should be a stated policy on the forums that if you're unwilling to send your blade in for an assessment by the factory, you shouldn't be allowed to complain.

I am not sure I would agree with that because for example consider if I received a knife with a pretty significant fault which I could correct, it isn't like I would send it in and pay shipping and then risk duty/brokerage on the return. In fact even if I could not fix it, often the cost of a return can be higher for me than a replacement, especially if it isn't fixed the first time. I do think if the manufacturer offers to pay cost then you should be obligated from a moral perspective.

That being said, I have never refused if a maker/manufacturer asks, but I would demand everyone else do the same.

"What is absurd exactly - that there is significant revenue there?"
No it is absurd to claim that there ISN'T room for significant revenue production. A website with that much traffic can be most than self sustaining from ad revenue, and needn't shakedown its members. This is ESPECIALLY true when user interests, and likely buyers, can be so easily targeted. Its not like you'd inadvertantly be hosting nailpolish advertisments on BF, you could sell ad space directly to knife companies, gun companies, sharpener companies, etc.

"The Kershaw rep?"
Yes

"I am not sure I would agree with that because for example consider if I received a knife with a pretty significant fault which I could correct, it isn't like I would send it in and pay shipping and then risk duty/brokerage on the return. In fact even if I could not fix it, often the cost of a return can be higher for me than a replacement, especially if it isn't fixed the first time. I do think if the manufacturer offers to pay cost then you should be obligated from a moral perspective."

I strongly disagree with this statement. Why? Because if your concern is helping a manufacturer, you can quite easily contact them privately. The purpose of making a public spectacle isn't to help the manufacturer, its to warn the public against their products. This directly hurts the manufacturer. If the issue were so insignificant its not worth the 4$ in shipping it would cost (international is another issue to discuss) is it really reasonable to cost a company thousands maybe tens of thousands of dollars in lost revenue over? If you're going to harm a company in that way, I believe it is the right of the company to have a chance to do a failure analysis on the unsatisfactory product. I recognize that moderation policies vary from place to place, but I unfortunately also recognize the need to occasionally make rules which seem superficially restrictive to the users for the benefit of companies and the group. Ankerson very pointedly brought up the fact that it seems Bladeforums, being almost devoid of any sort of scientific review, now consists primarily of vapid posts and whining about non-issues. Thats my opinion at least. Let me declare a conflict of interest though, which is that as someone who runs a company myself I take a slightly different tack to this as I recognize the importance of both company and user interests. When you're driving the company reps off your site, clearly something it out of balance.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 07, 2012 06:06PM
Quote
Hunterseeker5
No it is absurd to claim that there ISN'T room for significant revenue production. A website with that much traffic can be most than self sustaining from ad revenue, and needn't shakedown its members.

Consider this thread on the Spyderco Forum : [www.spyderco.com] . The user made a post where a Tuff failed due to chopping some light branches, it exploded into a page+page fest of complaints of abuse, many direct attacks on the OP - and this resulted in the OP leaving the forum with distaste for a company and forum he once enjoyed being a part of. Now is it sensible behavior for Spyderco to allow this to happen on their forum, for members to be so defensive that they cause customers to leave and in fact possible even create potential loss as that customer is not likely to speak positive and in fact the opposite is true.

However those fans of Spyderco were not actually trying to harm the company they were in fact doing as they though was best, they simply have no business training and no customer service training and thus they end up harming the company they are actually trying to protect. Spark is the same, he never had any business model for BF, he had no experience/training and so what happened when he started getting pressure from makers/manufacturers, he caved as he could not see that he was throwing away dollars to gain cents. Is it absurd, yes from your knowledge but from his he was protecting what he cared for the same way as those posters, again stumbling in ignorance.

Quote

Why? Because if your concern is helping a manufacturer, you can quite easily contact them privately. The purpose of making a public spectacle isn't to help the manufacturer, its to warn the public against their products. This directly hurts the manufacturer.

First I would take opposition to the first claim, there are lots of other reasons to write a review on a knife which is not glowingly positive and points out issues, it could be as simple as being social, part of a personal business model, for recreation or to share information to consumer, not to warn but simply to allow informed decisions. It isn't even necessary that negative aspects cause a business loss because the total sum of all of the effects could be net positive. I know for example that I have caused revenue gain for makers/manufacturers yet I frequently described negative aspects of their products however there are lots of reasons why this could still cause gain.

However even in the case where the review is extremely negative and it is the unmistakable conclusion from any reader to avoid this product I still do not see how you can create liability on the part of the consumer for this outcome when they did not make the defective product. The full liability for the outcome of the defective product is only on and totally restricted to the manufacturer. I would argue not only is the manufacturer liability for any loss of revenue from the knowledge of the defective product they are liability for the direct and indirect losses to the consumer, i.e., don't make defective products and then while about revenue losses when people find out about it.

Now there is a point to remain - what about is the product is not defective, well that is why there are libel laws.
Cliff...you quoted the following....

"I do think there should be a stated policy on the forums that if you're unwilling to send your blade in for an assessment by the factory, you shouldn't be allowed to complain. "

That would be a great statement to hand on a platter to Sal...and I hope he actually places it somewhere prominent on his forum.

I have had some customer induced issues with my early knives back in RSA, and fortunately the Internet was not yet around..
One game ranger fella used a leadwood branch to baton a flatground 3mm thick N690 blade through a giraffe breastbone...guess which won?

The chip in the blade was rather large, and near the handle... I replaced the whole knife at my expense to "do the right thing", and he proceeded to tell all his clients how all my knives were "weak"..it was designed for skinning...

It took a few phone calls from me to change his attitude, and he eventually came around to my way of thinking...

I reground the chipped blade narrower, gave it to my wife for the kitchen, and she shortly afterwards threw it out with vegetable peelings, she thinks...angry smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2012 03:27PM by zackerty.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 21, 2012 04:21PM
It is not unusual for customers to make unreasonable demands, it is part of the unfortunate nature of the world we live in that people who complain get action. Those people have learned that the more they complain the more they get and they are rewarded most of the time. Dealing with them is always a problem of minimizing loss and in extremes it leads to the known policy of firing the customer where you make it clear to them that you and them simply have different views and they should take their business elsewhere so you refund their money and the goal is simply to limit the damage that they will do by constant complaints as that is the real loss.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 21, 2012 05:17PM
Sometimes the customer IS wrong. I think an unreasonable customer should be called out if they are taking an unwarranted grievance to a public forum.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 21, 2012 05:25PM
From a moral perspective sure, from a personal stance on what is just, sure. From a business perspective, idiotic. If you call out a customer on a public forum then you are risking an enemy for life, you basically just hired someone who is willing to work for nothing to perform a marketing campaign against your products. Would you actually employ someone who did that, every day - of course not you would fire them immediately, and that is what you have to to, fire the customer not create an enemy.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 21, 2012 06:20PM
Quote
CliffStamp
From a moral perspective sure, from a personal stance on what is just, sure. From a business perspective, idiotic. If you call out a customer on a public forum then you are risking an enemy for life, you basically just hired someone who is willing to work for nothing to perform a marketing campaign against your products. Would you actually employ someone who did that, every day - of course not you would fire them immediately, and that is what you have to to, fire the customer not create an enemy.

I think you are overstating things a bit. Depending on the market and the forum, most customers can recognize a jerk when they see one.

Say you are new to buying widgets. So you go online and read about said widgets. If you read a negative comment do you automatically move on to some other widget? No, you keep reading. You also make sure to read the retorts to the negative comment.

If the business is Walmart you play the damage control game with unhappy customers, but if you are some kind of small business, or craftsman, you stand behind your product and hope potential customers can see you are in the right. Otherwise, we end up with nothing but Walmarts.

I actually have to deal with this kind of thing in my job, and if the customer is wrong about something we try to educate them. If they are a lost cause we will probably play the damage control game... to a point. Eventually we will simply cut ties with an out of line customer and defend ourselves as necessary. Usually those in the know back us and everything works out fine.
Re: Extreme Regrind : Pacific Salt, Small Sebenza, Meadowlark, Delica, Vapor, Fulcrum
November 21, 2012 07:03PM
btw I wonder how devastated Cold Steel has become by not replacing their knives due breakage from batoning? I know they have been called out on this by many.

They are an interesting case really. They promote their knives as being tough, but they also will tell customers that batoning isn't "normal use" and a breakage from batoning isn't covered by the warranty. On the one hand CS is leading their customers astray a bit, on the other hand I have little sympathy for someone who is willing to return a product they don't like, but doesn't learn what the return policy is. Read the company policy. If you don't understand what you are reading contact the company and have them clarify it.

I'm not saying companies are never at fault, sometimes they are. I'm saying that companies should do what is right and fair. If they feel a customer is taking advantage of them the company should feel like they can take a stand, not just pay the customer off to be quiet. Other potential customers can decide on their own who's side they are on. Most will recognize who is right and who is wrong.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login