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Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.

Posted by sal 
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sal
Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 24, 2016 11:50PM
Hi all,

I would like to prompt a discussion on the long and short term effect of the above subject. I had posted a negative comment on "Chinese mfrs" in another thread about another mfr. Cliff slammed me for the post and rightfully so as it was a broad statement that was in poor taste and not accurate.

This subphorum was suggested for the discussion. If it is not proper, please steer me in the right direction.

Luis was discussing a situation where he purchased a copy of one of our Tenacious models and explained the cost difference. Perhaps I can get Luis to join this discussion as well.

I am not interested in an argument or debate, but more to see different opinions and thoughts on the issues in question.

sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 12:19AM
In regards to what Luis said, if an American knife manufactured in China (as ridiculous as that is to say) sells for $75 in the EU, what would a American knife manufactured in Japan (the Endura) sell for?

That level of duties applied to that product is nuts and I can see how/why vendors of Chinese branded knives sell them like they do.


I owned two Chinese domestic branded knives, an Enlan EL-02B and an Inron MY-803. The Inron was Hinderer XM-18 inspired, $10 knife. It was no where near a clone, just borrowed the looks. It was nice enough, but noticeably cruder than the $20 China Kershaws that turn up.

The Enlan was fantastic for $20. It borrowed the Sebenza blade and handle shape, but had an Axis lock on it. The thing was a tank and much better finish than the Inron. Easily could have been sold in the US by a major manufacturer and passed muster.

Sal: You could probably write a book or two on running a foreign business in China, I completely get the frustration.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 12:25AM by Bugout Bill.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 12:42AM
I have a fine line on some makers. If the knife shares a common blade shape but a carbon copy of a popular handle then I may try it. But if the knife is a pure clone and except for branding I have a hard problem buying it. But there are some knives that I see that are very close clones but use materials or lock or construction type that I would prefer on the original and I may try it if the blade is branded very blatantly as not the original.

Also if there is a clear change to improve the knife I may be more open.

The biggest thing is I like 420/440C/8Cr steels, but a lot of knives I like in design use high carbide steels that are poorly suited to me. I tend to get very high corrosion resistance steels also for my use because I can rust most blades with my sweat in a few hours. It is the main reason I have gotten rid of all of but a few carbon steel blades.

I also like cheap knives, hate to say it but I think of knives as semi-disposable. They will break, wear out, get lost or stolen. So a good cheap locally available blade in steels I like are what I like.

Right now my main carry blades are in 420HC from Buck(This is my current favorite EDC blade), Byrd Meadowlark 2, Microtech Ultratech(Honestly about to sell this knife soon, it just doens't get used much), and a Timberline Mini Pitbull in AUS6 and finally a Victorinox. Then again I carry usually 3 or more.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 01:18AM
This topic has been an interesting part of the journey for me.

When I was need to the hobby, spending even $100 on a knife seemed like a stretch and I never envisioned owning more than a handful of blades to simply cover my needs. Fast forward to today where I have a couple dozen Spydercos and a burgeoning collection of Busse fixed blades, talk about a slippery slope!

I am guilty of buying some countfeit Sebenzas in those early days and wrote a little about the experience here.

I still use a reground Enlan with the knock-off Axis lock and general Sebenza blade shape, I think it's the same model Bugout Bill has. I'm also fascinated by Master Cutlery brands for some reason and have bought a handful of their fixed blades primarily for more grinding and modding practice. Some of these are clearly inspired by other designs, but in a few cases I din't even realize it until after the fact.

For me, I wouldn't knowingly buy a true counterfeit again, which I define as being a virtually identical copy and view as especially bad if they copy the real brand's logo, etc. I also don't intend to buy any of the Ganzo's as they make me a little uncomfortable, but after that I start to worry a bit less. CKC made some good points in the Ganzo thread that I agree with (maybe a Mod could move those posts here?), at some point it seems like all designs, inventions, innovations, etc... end up being borrowed, copied, adapted, and move toward the public domain over time.

Cheap blades have been important part of the learning process to me. I like that I can mod and use them freely with no concern about resale value or messing up and it sure hasn't stopped me from appreciating and buying high end production blades

-Nate
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 01:22AM
The one thing I will say about the counterfeits, particularly the Ganzos. They look like cool Benchmades, have the same handling as cool Benchmades, but a Ganzo is never, ever going to be a Benchmade.

That is a goofy thing, but that is my $.02. I'll spend my money on what I really want.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 01:47AM
Thinking about it more(I currently am on painkillers so pardon any oddities) the simpler way to put my thoughts into words are.

If a maker makes clear signs to sell under their own name and make changes that I feel improve the knife for me then I may buy it if I think the maker that inspired the design will be unlikely to ever make those changes in different models in the future or currently.

Which is why I like Spyderco, you constantly are putting out models with variation both to answer needs in the market in function and collect ability. Yet Microtech only sticks to the blade steel that is the current In thing, that I think they can get the cheapest, but makes interesting new knife designs or changes designs to meet demand or aesthetic choices.
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 01:54AM
Quote
Bugout Bill
In regards to what Luis said, if an American knife manufactured in China (as ridiculous as that is to say) sells for $75 in the EU, what would a American knife manufactured in Japan (the Endura) sell for?

The Tenacious retails for abut $70. For the knife to be available in Portugal for $75 means the distributor is doing a good job with pricing, considering shipping (which he pays) and duties (which he pays). The Endura retails for about $115.

sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 01:58AM
I don't buy knockoffs. I'm paying for performance and don't have the time to gamble with "close enough". The disappointing thing is that buying the real thing is only valid if the manufacturers stand behind their products, which is not always the case.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 02:05AM
Sal: That is nuts. I'd be particularly interested if one were to compare what a Boker Magnum (their rebranded China made stuff) might sell for in Europe. I wonder if Spyderco being US based is what tacks on most of the cost.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 02:13AM
I would like to step in this subject, but my english is quite poor to elaborate a clear and concise thought in so multifaceted theme.

I do understand Mr. Glesser view as a designer/creator, and agree that he must be compensated for his creations, period.

Americans tends to view things only for their own perspectives and forget that the rest of the world could be quite different.

In some countries or more exactly in many countries the average worker income is 10, 15, 20 times less than the average american so even a Byrd knife that in the US may cost 20 US$, a fraction of the month salary, when purchased by a guy from lets say, Brazil, don't cost below 100 US$ if bought locally [produto.mercadolivre.com.br] , more than 30% of the minimal month salary ( 54% of the brazilian workers earn 1 to 3 minimal salaries - minimal month salary = 281 US$ )

In the other hand, the Ganzo knife that cost around the same 20 US$ in China can be bought for less than 50 US$ at the same platform [produto.mercadolivre.com.br]

If the guy direct import both knives, with shipping the Byrd go's to 40 US$ and the Ganzo been free shipping from China vendors still cost 20 US$.

Quality branded knives have their marketing share and not necessarily share the same market for the low cost/less quality knives.

Important aspect that is frequently forgotten: very few knife buyers understand knife aspects or know even famous brands like Spydercos, Benchmades, etc. They simply want's a knife that cuts, period! Doesn't matter with logo is stamped or engraved in the blade or the steel! The knife is just a tool.

To contextualize this, imagine that you go to a store to buy a furniture and for you furniture is just a furniture. Are you worry if this chair or table that you buying is a copy, clone or "wanna be" from reputed or famous brand or as you didn't mind about furniture you simply don't care and the only real thing that occupy your mind is if this goods fits or not on your budget?
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 09:00AM
Forgive me for any excess brevity, I am currently stuck using a mobile. Sometimes we complain about knife manufacturer warranties but they have nothing on electronic product manufacturers.

This mobile thing is yet another thing to add to the comparisons one can make to copies of products outside the knige world. I an currently typing on a Huawei smartphone. This brand didn't invent the smartphone, or the OS being used, or the screen tech, or the camera tech, etc... Yet, for millions of people out there, using phones other than the iPhone doesn't strike anyone as odd, they are just phones made from different manufacturers, yet I can tell you my personal phone took a lot from the iPhone. Of course, there are copyright issues even in that world, famously the rounded corners affair — which only highlights how the ethics in different places vary, as Apple lost that one in Europe but won it in the USA.

One, as an aficionado, cannot help but to ascribe more importance to our decisions and expectations in our hobby. It seems like, at least to me, that a decision made concerning knives is somehow weightier, more meaningfull than in regards to other things that are just as important as knives in my daily life — clothes, food, entertainment sources, cleaning supplies — I don't think twice about buying store brand products where I find the quality to be good enough or somehow better than the brand product, and yet I will only buy the brand if I feel like other products cannot match up. As an example, I will buy store brand refills for an air freshener but will only buy Scotch Brite sponges.

In the end, I think this is the standard where I have to hold knives too. Of course, it's completely fine for someone to choose to behave differently in any one aspect of one's life, I've yet to see someone I have known to a great degree be completely consistent, but if we are going to try and predict patterns in how a market works with an expectation for a large bias that contradicts general behaviour, well, good luck, that's going to need a lot of really precise data and research. Which means the question becomes, are these copy knives delivering in performance? I do own a Spyderco product, because it was a very generous gift from a fellow knife fan, the Manix 2 LW in BD—1. It is an excellent knife, and yet it is regularly kicked out of my pocket by Ganzo knives. The reason? Well, I'm a lot more willing to re—sharpen any Ganzo knife over the Manix, and in my experience, I can't tell the difference between most blade steels in regular use. There's also a lot more variety in what I have in Ganzo offerings, and as much of a pratical user as I wish to see myself as, I am still one of those collectors who have bought some knives for no real substantial reasons, and as such, I like to vary what I carry too. For the cost of a Manix in the USA, nevermind in Portugal, I can pay for my entire Ganzo collection, and have knives of varied designs and material. Ganzo is delivering knives in Carbon Fiber handles and good quality steel for around $20, and recently they have begun skeletonizing liners and building knives on roller bearing systems, all things we here in the knife community are only used to seeing in much higher dollar offerings. In the end, if a knife was something I bought like a box of cookies, the Ganzo would be store offerings and knives from other production companies would be like the $5 cookies you sometimes see. I'm sure they are very good cookies, but they'd last me about the same and would feed me about the same too. I'll maybe try $5 cookies once. I'll keep coming back for the others though.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 02:06PM
From a maker’s perspective (fixed blades only) I will not blatantly copy someone else’s unique design and sell it as my own. The problem with fixed blades is that there are only so many blade and handle shapes. I have been accused of copying another makers design before. I quickly addressed the issue and thru my social media post, showed the other maker that my paring knife design had been out longer than his. He did apologize. It is easy to unknowingly make a knife similar to someone else’s. How many functional variations can one have on a western style chef’s knife or a drop point belt knife?

Some designs are just obvious copies of others work and if you do not have permission from that maker it is stealing in my opinion. I have made two custom knives heavily inspired by Phil Wilson. Before I made the knives, I contacted Mr. Wilson and asked for and received his permission to make them first.

I do not know enough about copyright and IP laws to talk about them intelligently.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 25, 2016 07:48PM
To me the existence of clones suggests that somewhere between conceptualization of the product and the consumer exists some slack that can be exploited by the people who make clones. Which tells me someone is also getting screwed somewhere along the chain from conceptualization to consumer.
cKc
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 26, 2016 05:54AM
I tend to treat these things more with a legal mind than an emotional one.

1st.. Patents and Trademarks are not worldwide. an american patent is only good in america, a NZ patent is only good in NZ.. it is pretty expensive to take out global patents (meaning choosing more than one zone where you want your patent to apply) and at the end of the day, its still up to the patent owner to defend and legally enforce that patent..

So take that to the next step. There is no illegality in a chinese, spanish, indian or whatever company seeing a good brand in another country and choosing to make a product the same..
To take it to an extreme based on my understanding.. if a knife company in china wanted to call their company SpyderCo (in china) and register their company in china as spyderco, there is nothing stopping them if it has not been done. if they then wanted to take the same patent Sal's company had in USA (Sal, maybe you have patents in many countries, I'm just theorizing here that you dont in china) they could apply for that patent in china as a new patent in their jurisdiction.. We could basically end up with a perfectly legit knife being sold in China called spyderco, with a hole, that looks like an endura which is not breaking any laws at all and that company could file if someone imported a USA made spyderco into their area. Now if someone in USA choose to buy and import that knife into USA, they could then be charged with importing a counterfeit based on USA law.. but if I ordered that same one to NZ, i doubt NZ has any infringments to offer..

There might be a bunch of things to poke holes in with the above, I'm not a lawyer, just speaking based on my simple understanding of things.

Personally, I'm unlikely to buy such a knife because I'm a knife guy.. but as was said above.. that company may have a market of millions of customers at $5 per unit that are never going to buy the same thing at $50 per unit no matter what the quality because they can't afford it.

an interesting small article here....

[hbr.org]

copying the ideas of competitors is nothing new.. its common, and also triggers more rapid innovation and growth across the industry in my opinion. when people dont copy you, you can stagnate.. but otherwise you are driven to keep being better than your immitators.

Patents are also an interesting area to me.. the intent behind them is that you can lock off the immitators for a period of time to try and recoup costs and benefit from your idea (in your patent area) but their entire purpose is to become public domain afterwards to share innovation. if an idea is good it will get used.

I think its hard to take a moral high ground on these types of things when morals themselves are not globally equal ideas.

at the end of the day, often these companies making copies are not doing anything considered immoral by normal competitive business models, and being in a different country are also probably not breaching any patent or trademark laws either (in most cases).. the people at fault are typically the ignorant consumers in the countries which hold a patent, trademark or copyright and infringe them by importing the product.

No easy simple answer to these types of discussions if you use morals, or emotions.. better to stick to laws as a determination of right or wrong when talking about commercial product.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 26, 2016 09:14AM
Most of what I would have said has been said.

I see a significant difference between a counterfeit(wrongly branded), clone/homage (same design but maker's brand) and original material.

Counterfeit is always wrong. It is a lie, and destructive in every way. Takes away sales from original manufacturer, and can damage their reputation.

Homage is obviously a different product. Will likely do little damage to sales or rep of original manufacturer. Think Hyundai branded Cadillac clone. Can increase sales due to collectibility. Aren't there 4-5 maker's of the Applegate/Fairbairn knife? If someone has the Blackjack, they are more likely to get the Gerber.

Original material is original. Ganzo branded knife with an outline like the Para Military, an Axis style lock, and a tougher tip. Are Benchmade or Spyderco ever going to come out with this knife? They cannot due to market positioning. Ganzo can. Can you say it is costing sales if you never could have made it?

The biggest issue is the price difference. Obviously there are several root causes. However, price differences do not cost sales-a perceived lack of value does! Let's say a person has $7500 to spend on a Rolex. He plays with it at the store, discusses warranty, history, etc., and decides to mull it over. After leaving, a guy on the street offers him a 'Rolex' for $300. It doesn't weigh the same, look quite the same, etc. The only reason he would purchase the fake is because he couldn't see the value in the real one. When you know the value of the real thing, you see what you are missing with other options.

Nobody bought a Ganzo because they wanted a Spyderco. The bought a Ganzo because 1) they couldn't afford a Spyderco, or 2) couldn't see the value in a Spyderco. Today, with hard economic times in many places, and the death of retail and customer service, both are a reality. I sold knives retail in my own shop. Customers paid for what they valued.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 26, 2016 05:20PM
I already expressed myself a little on the other thread ( [www.cliffstamp.com] ), but I would like to speak on the subject more in depth. I select knives (hobby, work) based on the features of the knife, the availability of the knife (if I can find it at a local store, if it is still in or will be in production), the company and it's behavior (product support, customer service, ect), and last how much it costs (for working knives this comes into play more than hobby/collecting knives, as hobby or collection knives are a luxury). That being said, there's nothing the copies, counterfeits, or clones offer me over a brand name knife other than being disposable.

I can't find the exact quote what Cliff said about clones (I think the topic being discussed was the Edge Pro Apex and it's clones) was:
"Who do you want to support? Upstanding members of the knife community or unknown manufacturing bases that copy originals?"


Now I feel, based on individuals cultural and economic backgrounds, each person can make that decision themselves.

I don't want to seem l like I am judging anyone, but I rather have the real thing or a economy model from one of the main manufacturing companies. From what I have seen, they're better knives for the same money anyway. Also, do to MAP, I haven't been able to buy a brand name Benchmade or Spyderco in ten years. It's all been Benchmade Red Class/H&K/HD, Byrd, Kershaw, Gerber, & CRKT.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 26, 2016 06:22PM
I forgot to mention Cold Steel knives also, they have grear budget knives.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 26, 2016 07:30PM
Quote
Bugout Bill
Sal: That is nuts. I'd be particularly interested if one were to compare what a Boker Magnum (their rebranded China made stuff) might sell for in Europe. I wonder if Spyderco being US based is what tacks on most of the cost.

Hi Bill,

I'll try to share some info as I can. (I have a business to run and designs to make, so time is always tight).

In the creation of a new design, we might have $10K to $20K in product development to get to a final prototype. Once a maker is selected, we could add another $5K-$10K before we receive a prototype from the maker. Once we have quotes, tooling could run from $10K-$40K depending on the model. The first run (minimum of 1200 pieces) adds big lump to the expenses before we can sell the first piece. Add catalogs, shipping, marketing, photography, and there is a lot of investment before a single piece can be sold. This dfoes not include the overhead of running our company (employees, rent, equipment, insurance, etc. If the life of the model is 5,000 pcs. Those expenses have to be recouped in the 5,000 pcs, then we can make a reasonable profit.

If we make it in the US, then $1.00 is equal to $1.00
If we make it in Japan, then our $1.00 will be worth anywhere from $.90 to $1.25 depending on the fluctuating exchange rate.
The Euro will also fluctuate like the Yen. So our knives made in Italy are affected by that conversion.
Taiwan is less, but our Taichung maker is more expensive and we ship steel from the US so costs will also hover around that ratio.
If we make the knife in China, our $1.00 is worth $6.00, because of the value of the Yuan, which is controlled by the Chinese government. We still have all of the development costs, but the knife is less expensive.

When someone copies our knife, they eliminate all of the development costs, and in the case of Luis' knife, they also eliminated all of the duties. so their knife is much cheaper, not only because they're using cheaper materials, but they have "stolen" all of the costs to get to the model. I'm also guessing there is government subsidies.

sal
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 26, 2016 07:40PM
cKc, your understanding of IP is good.

Good info, thanx for sharing.

sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 26, 2016 11:46PM
Thank you for the insight, Sal.

If you could offer any insight, how big is the Chinese knifemaking industry? Also are their any custom knifemakers operating in China that you have heard from?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 27, 2016 01:16AM
Hi Bill,

The Chinese knife industry is very large. Probably larger than USA and Germany together. Rows upon rows of kitchen knife factories on the main drag in Yiang Jiang. Most of the custom makers specialize in counterfeits. That's how they "hone their skills".

sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 27, 2016 01:26AM
Sal: Interesting.

Shame about the custom makers.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
KWB
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 29, 2016 03:37PM
As their are many sides to this I will share my opinion for what its worth.

A copy of someones work for profit without consent is wrong.

But a Chinese family shouldnt starve because they do not want to infringe on someones intellectual property.

I bought a $10 ozark trail rambler vs a yeti rambler as it costs 1/3 the price, full well knowing it was a copy. I guess the point behind this is I dont want to walk on peoples hard work and buy a knock off, however I do believe that while Yeti is American the prices they want are unacceptable.

I bought 3 pairs of Darn Tough socks, they are American made in Vermont in fact. Carry a lifetime warranty and they perform amazingly. Why did I pay $25 per pair of socks? I liked that they stood behind their product and took pride in their work, so much so to offer a lifetime warranty.

As much as would like to believe that this can be broken down in black and white I am conflicted in my thoughts. While I believe American made products should be bought over Chinese, I also think they should have a reason to be bought over the Chinese.

But what bothers me the most is not the fact when I do buy Chinese goods not only I am undermining the very country I believe in (belief in people mind you not the government) i am supporting the terrible wages and conditions of Chinese workers.

What also bothers me with that is I know that no matter what I choose my choices alone will change nothing. I guess the only sunny side to it all is that the morals or whatever you wish to call it at the end of the day dont have $ or care about lines on a map simply right and wrong. If you follow them it might not change anything else but it may put your mind at ease knowing you did right.

Contact 570-486-9095
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 29, 2016 07:40PM
So there keeps being a reference to counterfeits. Is this referring to falsely branded knives, or copies made emblazoned with another brand?
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 29, 2016 10:28PM
Hi KWB,

The Chinese Yuan is devalued to 6/1 US dollars. This is an unfair valuation as China is hardly a 3rd word country and ethically and morally shouldn't have their Yuan valued as though they are a 3rd word country. They put peopoe in Space. They are the woorlds second largest economy.

In my time in China, I see more money floating around than in the US. More Mercedes, Audies, Ferrari's, etc. I don't think there is a Chinese family starving over our counterfeits.

The cheap price based on the devalued Yuan is exactly how they get you. And they got you. Counterfeiters are stealing all of the efforts that go into the creating a product. Perhaps you should read my post again?

sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 30, 2016 12:26AM
sal: why make in Red China? is it the buck or two to be competitive? can't knives be made in USA that can compete? I know that products made in USA typically have better quality, that American workers are the most productive in the world, that labor costs in Red China are rising and combined with shipping, some sectors of industry have moved jobs back to the US from the Far East.
to take one of your knives, break it down then make an exact copy is wrong and should be punished. to make one that is similar, into the grey zone.
myself, I don't buy knives anymore. If I want a new knife, I make it. Folders and EDC knives are not my thing, I choose not to carry a knife except in my tool box and tackle box.

scott
[www.etsy.com]
KWB
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 30, 2016 01:49AM
Sal,

I think you misunderstand what I meant by my post. It was that the situation is a lose-lose for the vast majority. Bottom line the world is not fair, but solace should be had in the fact that a person did their best and did it honestly.

But that aside it was not to say making exact copies is ok, rather to say the economical structure that China is under breeds this spirit of just take it if you cant make something better yourself. That is not to say that is the prerogative of the nation. Similar to how our government doesnt define us. When other countries look at us I wonder what they see? Do they see the hard working Americans doing their job day in day out?

Also as you stated how they have devalued their currency puts America and other countries into the predicament of buying cheap or expensive. While I could be wrong I see China as America was back in the days of Rockefeller, Carnegie and Morgan. What was built was marvellous but it came at a price as well.

I should note I run a an Excavation buisness myself as well as make knives as well its not like I do not understand. I should have elaborated more.

Contact 570-486-9095
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 30, 2016 03:12AM
Hi Scott,

First of all, it isn't really "Red China" anymore. Capitalism is alive and strong in China. And they pray to the money God more than Americans, if you can believe that. A 6-1 ration is really just to great to compete against. They know exactly what they're doing. I can make a knife in China, boxed and ready to sell for less than I will pay for the steel in the US. Granted the steel quality is not as good, and the quality of fit and finish isn't either, but they are improving quality at an alarming rate. As KW stated, the price difference is really to great to ignore.

But that's a separate issue from copies. But because of the enormous price difference, the copes thrive.

Just my opinion, but I question that US workers are the most productive in the world, at this time. Not that many mfg jobs are coming back to the US from the Far East. Try to find a US made coffee pot, blender, washing machine, etc. I believe if the Yuan was 2-1, the playing field would be more fair.

The copies "should be punished" is very difficult to impossible. Our Government doesn't try to contro it very well. The Chinese gverment likewise doesn't try hard to stop it because it brings in so much US money. Look At Ali Baba. Direct sales from China counterfeiters to the us public at "great" prices.

sal

sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 30, 2016 06:03AM
The Ali Baba prices are not what they seem. While there are cheap goods, it seems that the cheapest are plagued with fraud or poor qc. I figure that you will pay roughly 1/2 for quality equal to the original product.

Even at 1/2, that is without a retailer. Who wants to wade through that and wait for shipping to save 1/2? If a reseller does it, then the gap narrows as well.

Now, just to muddy the waters... If a knife is $115 retail, $79 on Amazon, it is only worth $79. If a counterfeit is made available for $39, it is assumed that $30 ish is the real cost, and everything else 'is for the name'. If the knife was $115 everywhere, then a $39 blade is an imposter.

I think it is a combination of quite a few things that have created the current situation, and cheap counterfeits are only a small portion of it.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 30, 2016 01:40PM
Quote
sal
Hi Scott,

First of all, it isn't really "Red China" anymore. Capitalism is alive and strong in China. And they pray to the money God more than Americans, if you can believe that. A 6-1 ration is really just to great to compete against. They know exactly what they're doing. I can make a knife in China, boxed and ready to sell for less than I will pay for the steel in the US. Granted the steel quality is not as good, and the quality of fit and finish isn't either, but they are improving quality at an alarming rate. As KW stated, the price difference is really to great to ignore.

But that's a separate issue from copies. But because of the enormous price difference, the copes thrive.

Just my opinion, but I question that US workers are the most productive in the world, at this time. Not that many mfg jobs are coming back to the US from the Far East. Try to find a US made coffee pot, blender, washing machine, etc. I believe if the Yuan was 2-1, the playing field would be more fair.

The copies "should be punished" is very difficult to impossible. Our Government doesn't try to contro it very well. The Chinese gverment likewise doesn't try hard to stop it because it brings in so much US money. Look At Ali Baba. Direct sales from China counterfeiters to the us public at "great" prices.
sal

two ideas: one is education of the public about counterfeit knives. does Joe Public even know it's an issue? and since there are no American jobs involved, does he care.
two is move your production back to the states so you can say "Made in USA" Have you talked to Hyde or Murphy or CS Osborne or Lamson or Warther about them making your knives?
I can see the enforcement problem, we have two containers of knives on the dock that look identical, and you are saying container one is real and container two is a copy. since they both came from the same country, heck maybe even the same factory, what am I, Charly Customs Agent, supposed to do.
I used to make car parts. the manufacture of some parts was off-loaded to Mexico, PRC, and Thailand. within 4 years, all parts had returned to the US with the exception of ones made for local consumption.

scott
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