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Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.

Posted by sal 
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KWB
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 30, 2016 04:37PM
I would agree with Sal, not in all aspects but defiantly the exchange rate. The only way I can see a way out is to pay more and buy US. We keep buying chinese they will own all of us instead of just a portion of our economy. Its not like we can embargo their products we will owe them so much money.

Understand the above is thoughts towards their govt do not reflect my opinion of tgeir people, i think its very important to make that distinction otherwise you can produce a mindset similar Islam= terrorism to the US.

Contact 570-486-9095
cKc
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 31, 2016 04:06AM
Quote
Any Cal.
So there keeps being a reference to counterfeits. Is this referring to falsely branded knives, or copies made emblazoned with another brand?

I am also concerned with what seems to be a mis-use of the word Counterfeit.. we need to be strictly clear on what we are discussing and what that means..

to take Merriam Webster on line as a simple basis (as each dictionary may have wording differences)
Quote
Merriam Webster
Simple Definition of counterfeit
made to look like an exact copy of something in order to trick people

We all know what a counterfeit Rolex is, vs a watch called "Rolox" which looks like a Rolex.

I believe what we are mostly talking about here is not Counterfeit, but knockoffs.
Quote
Merriam Webster
Full Definition of knockoff
a copy that sells for less than the original; broadly : a copy or imitation of someone or something popular

a knockoff is not strickly speaking a counterfeit, although it might be. a knock-off is close enough, with features enough that most people might think its the original at first glance.

an Example might be a knife by "Spiderco" rather than SpyderCo, which looks very similar in style and design.

Mostly what I see in Ganzo Knives as an Example ARE NOT counterfeit. they have their own brand and are not counterfeiting. You might call some of them knockoffs because they are so similar in design to some other companies works..

Mostly they are at the end of the day, simply maximizing on the hard work of people that came before them...

Think of this..
if a new car manufacturer came into the industry today with a car that was very similar to a lexus but 1/2 price, and in most places you could see had all the quality needed for a luxery car.. what would you be saying about that company? would you be saying they were counterfeiters, knockoffs and immoral? or would you be saying that they are leveraging a free market and learning from companies that came before them.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 31, 2016 07:40AM
That is the question. What are the 'counterfeits' that are taking away sales? How so?

If actually a counterfeit, there would be a percentage of sales that would have been expected to go to the original manufacturer, plus a loss of sales if there were any repercussions due to qc. The clone Fallkniven are an example. Poor quality, but claiming to be real. Direct loss in sales, plus the knives are lousy, so damage reputation.

If a knockoff or item with a strong resemblance, typically at a lower price point, then a much lower percentage of the sales would have been for the original. The market for $150 knives is finite, so claiming $17 knives are costing sales is a sham. The argument could be made that the $17 knives are filling a need that would never have been reached by a $150 knife. The only way the original argument holds true is if the copy costs as much as the original, or nearly so, and is of same materials and design.

Market votes with its dollars for what it wants. If people are willing to wait weeks for a knife from an unknown company made with 'lesser' materials, it is a pretty safe bet they weren't interested in the alternatives.
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 31, 2016 12:50PM
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oldsailorsknives


two ideas: one is education of the public about counterfeit knives. does Joe Public even know it's an issue? and since there are no American jobs involved, does he care.
two is move your production back to the states so you can say "Made in USA" Have you talked to Hyde or Murphy or CS Osborne or Lamson or Warther about them making your knives?
I can see the enforcement problem, we have two containers of knives on the dock that look identical, and you are saying container one is real and container two is a copy. since they both came from the same country, heck maybe even the same factory, what am I, Charly Customs Agent, supposed to do.
I used to make car parts. the manufacture of some parts was off-loaded to Mexico, PRC, and Thailand. within 4 years, all parts had returned to the US with the exception of ones made for local consumption.

Hi Scott,

Our US factory in Golden is state of the art and already produces thousands of knives. We also make knives in Japan, Italy, Taiwan and China.

sal
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 31, 2016 12:55PM
By Counterfeits, The knives we are fighting say Spyderco on the knife, made in Golden Colorado, and are marked with the appropriate steel, even though the steel they are using is far inferior.

They are claiming to be Spyderco.

sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 31, 2016 04:41PM
Quote
sal
By Counterfeits, The knives we are fighting say Spyderco on the knife, made in Golden Colorado, and are marked with the appropriate steel, even though the steel they are using is far inferior.
They are claiming to be Spyderco.
sal

In theory, you should have a good case to prosecute for patent/trademark infringement, but the way courts work, the only folks that would make any money would be the lawyers

scott
[www.etsy.com]
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
October 31, 2016 06:02PM
Quote
oldsailorsknives
Quote
sal
By Counterfeits, The knives we are fighting say Spyderco on the knife, made in Golden Colorado, and are marked with the appropriate steel, even though the steel they are using is far inferior.
They are claiming to be Spyderco.
sal

In theory, you should have a good case to prosecute for patent/trademark infringement, but the way courts work, the only folks that would make any money would be the lawyers

Hi Scott,

we prosecute regularly. Some progress is made, but as you mentioned, progress is slow. There is no IP Police (unfortunately).

I might also add that we regularly pull dozens of knives (Like Ganzo) from the net every week due to trademark infringement.

sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
November 01, 2016 03:52AM
Interadasting.
cKc
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
November 01, 2016 07:14AM
Quote
sal
By Counterfeits, The knives we are fighting say Spyderco on the knife, made in Golden Colorado, and are marked with the appropriate steel, even though the steel they are using is far inferior.

They are claiming to be Spyderco.

sal

Yes, this is absolutely not good, and hopefully awareness of the fact would stop people.. but it can't just go that far.. if a person is willing to buy from a shop that openly sells a counterfeit, even if what they buy was not one of the counterfeits then its still supporting illegal practices.

I'd again stress though that something like a knife just having the trademark hole, is only an issue if selling into a country where that trademark is a legal mark and in this case like many it comes down to importer/buyer beware rather than seller from another country. I appreciate the efforts someone like Sal has to go through to protect their american market.. it can't be easy or satisfying to deal with it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
November 01, 2016 09:01AM
Allright, I've got a couple of questions on this subject that maybe Sal or someone else can answer. I've searched but not been able to find definitive answers on these things.

First of all.
How much is a design protected by Intellectual Property laws?

I'm not talking about functionality or invention (such as lock types for instance) but just pure design, shapes etc.

For instance. Take the Ganzo 717 which is Sebenza shaped. Now I know Benchmade has a case there (or they would have if they had an international patent) against the use of the axis lock.

But one of the complaints that people have is that it's "Sebenza shaped" and that somehow that's wrong...Saying it's wrong to copy the overall shape and some of the features (like the rounded spine on that knife) of the Sebenza.

But for the world of me I can't find ANY legal statements on that area. Can anyone enlighten me on that?




Second of all
I know some things are Trademarked rather than Patented (usually for legal reasons) like the Spyderco opening hole, the Busse Talonhole was another one.

But from what I understand a trademark can only be enforced if it can be shown to not be a functional characteristic.
Which means that it would be pretty darn hard to enforce both those features since they have (in most cases) functional reasons (i.e. Opening the blade and attatching a forward lanyard for safety reasons.)

Can things like that even be enforced?
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
November 01, 2016 09:40AM
Quote
LX_Emergency
Allright, I've got a couple of questions on this subject that maybe Sal or someone else can answer. I've searched but not been able to find definitive answers on these things.

First of all.
How much is a design protected by Intellectual Property laws?

I'm not talking about functionality or invention (such as lock types for instance) but just pure design, shapes etc.

For instance. Take the Ganzo 717 which is Sebenza shaped. Now I know Benchmade has a case there (or they would have if they had an international patent) against the use of the axis lock.

But one of the complaints that people have is that it's "Sebenza shaped" and that somehow that's wrong...Saying it's wrong to copy the overall shape and some of the features (like the rounded spine on that knife) of the Sebenza.

But for the world of me I can't find ANY legal statements on that area. Can anyone enlighten me on that?
Hi,
read
Term of patent in the USA
and especially Design patent
If you pay protection money it can last up to 15 years,
In other countries you get 3 years protection for free , see Industrial design right for more on that
Sebenza since 1990,
so 2016-1990 = 26,
so no design or utility patent on sebenza,
still have trademark on name, probably, company exists so it makes sense they'd keep paying those fees grinning smiley




Quote
LX_Emergency
Second of all
I know some things are Trademarked rather than Patented (usually for legal reasons) like the Spyderco opening hole, the Busse Talonhole was another one.

But from what I understand a trademark can only be enforced if it can be shown to not be a functional characteristic.
Which means that it would be pretty darn hard to enforce both those features since they have (in most cases) functional reasons (i.e. Opening the blade and attatching a forward lanyard for safety reasons.)

Can things like that even be enforced?

The way I understand it,
spyderco came up with a hole for opening,
they got a utility patent on it (a big deal),
and got a trademark specifically on a round hole for opening,
since they had the utility patent the trademark was granted,
no one else could have one

Utility patent on holes has expired,
but the trademark has not, and probably never will

The way I understand Functionality doctrine
I doubt anybody else is going to be able to get a trademark on a different shaped hole as that boat has sailed
And this thread seems to back that up Busse Talon Hole Trademark? answer seems to be no they dont

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
November 01, 2016 10:28AM
Quote
ShaperAndMower

Hi,
read
Term of patent in the USA
and especially Design patent
If you pay protection money it can last up to 15 years,
In other countries you get 3 years protection for free , see Industrial design right for more on that
Sebenza since 1990,
so 2016-1990 = 26,
so no design or utility patent on sebenza,
still have trademark on name, probably, company exists so it makes sense they'd keep paying those fees grinning smiley
That does answer it a bit. That's my first time seeing anything about a design patent. That clarifies a lot.
So the design patent WOULD be expired for the Sebenza shaped Ganzo's but maybe not for the Lionsteel SR1 shaped ones and more recent models.
Thank you for taking the time to answer that.

Quote
ShaperAndMower
The way I understand it,
spyderco came up with a hole for opening,
they got a utility patent on it (a big deal),
and got a trademark specifically on a round hole for opening,
since they had the utility patent the trademark was granted,
no one else could have one

Utility patent on holes has expired,
but the trademark has not, and probably never will

The way I understand Functionality doctrine
I doubt anybody else is going to be able to get a trademark on a different shaped hole as that boat has sailed
And this thread seems to back that up Busse Talon Hole Trademark? answer seems to be no they dont
That confirms what I already thought. Thank you.
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
November 01, 2016 11:29AM
We have patents and trademarks in more than 60 countries. (over 100) We also have a trademark on the "byrd" hole. The issue is enforcement, as there is no patent police, the enforcement for any IP is the money you give your lawyer.

sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
November 01, 2016 12:16PM
Quote
sal
We have patents and trademarks in more than 60 countries. (over 100) We also have a trademark on the "byrd" hole. The issue is enforcement, as there is no patent police, the enforcement for any IP is the money you give your lawyer.

sal
I figured as much Sal. Thank you very much for answering.

Also cool to hear that you've registered in so many countries. The way most people speak about patents etc you'd think nothing outside of the US exists sometimes.
cKc
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
November 01, 2016 08:08PM
They exist.. its just a very time consuming and costly process to get patents and trademarks outside your own country, so typically only companies that intend to have an international market do it, and then only in the countries where they want a dominant market share.


I think at the end of the day the problem is that it can cost Sal more money to enforce than is practical. staying ahead of them with quality, customer service, reputable product is the way to go. the sad thing with counterfeits is that they can be junk, and people in some countries could end up saying they are junk never having used a real one.. thats where it costs.

its easy to just say "dont buy them or support them for any reason" in a small group.. but it wont help the fact that they are globally available on the internet now in markets that they never used to be easily available too..

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
November 08, 2016 01:55PM
My $.02

Ecclesiastes 1New International Version (NIV)

Everything Is Meaningless
1 The words of the Teacher,[a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”
3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
February 01, 2017 02:52AM
I ordered a knife on ebay that looks like a Spyderco Yojimbo. The guy never said it was a Spyderco and I didn't expect a Spyderco. But the pictures of the knife on ebay showed a blade with no markings. The blade I received has a full set of Spyderco markings. I contacted the seller about it, but it says he is away until Feb. 6, 2017.
Any way the knife looks fairly well made. Steel is supposed to be 9CR. It doesn't specify more. The blade does not lock as well as the Spyderco.
I already have 2 real Spyderco Yojimbo's so this excursion did not cost Sal anything. I was just curious. Don't think I would buy it again.
sal
Re: Discussion of counterfeits, clones, copies, etc.
February 21, 2017 12:37AM
Hi Curmudgeon,

They "counterfeit" almost every model we make, and sell them all over the world. It is discouraging. You'd think our Government would at least try to do something about it?

sal