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Joe Calton : 440C

Posted by CliffStamp 
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Re: Joe Calton : 440C
August 09, 2015 03:28AM
Thanks for the kind words fellas!! I really do these tests for me, but it is really nice knowing that others are interested in them enough to watch the videos!

well I do round off the tangs, and use a lot of athletic tape on the major spots where the tangs rub. I have tried gloves, but so much of rope cutting is feel that the gloves throw my results off. usually though, im so excited to see what the tests will show that I don't notice until the next day.

I have seen those poster board protractors before, like in the cold steel videos, but had never thought to make one. I suppose that now that I am video taping everything that one would be a really good idea, along with a better fixture for using my torque wrench to measure the resistance.

it depends on the flexibility. if I do an edge quench shallow enough that the blade can do several 90's, then it has a good chance of being too flexible when ground thin. so lately ive been shooting for a blade that can go almost to 90 with the necker class knives in 1095 so that it will have enough rigidity to be a good blade. I would hope that most folks if they got into something deep enough that they were flexing their knife even 30 degrees would realize it and back off. of course it is really nice to be able to choose and predict to a pretty good degree on how a particular knife will fail so when someone orders a custom I can make what they want to fit their needs.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
August 10, 2015 01:58AM
Agreed on the appreciation for these videos and for the effort being put in to select and develop a heat treat for a stainless steel!
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
August 10, 2015 10:47PM
Joe, I'm not sure if you covered this in somewhere else, but I'm curious about how you cut your blanks from the sheet. Any details would be appreciated, thanks much.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
August 11, 2015 01:47AM
Ryan,

I don't think I mentioned it, but I use a dewalt deep cut variable speed bandsaw, mounted to a upright base, with a larger table made out of mild steel and a 10-14 tpi blade. cut the blades out, profile with an old 36, and then old 220, drill holes and countersink and then check and straighten and then run with it. That bandsaw has been one of my best purchases in new shop equipment, really speeds things up a lot, and even though its a metal bandsaw, I use it on wood, plastic, steel, aluminum, brass ect..... oh, and I have it set up with a foot switch with the trigger lock engaged and on a power strip. so hit the switch on the power strip, then hit the foot switch. always keep your weight on the foot that is not on the switch so if you start to bind the blade or feel something is wrong, let up on the foot switch and will stop the blade :}

Plus since it is clamped to the upright base, if I need to use it to cut something else, just unclamp it and make the cut, takes just a few minutes to unclamp, then clamp again.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 04, 2015 03:01PM
Joe's 440C Neckers are out:

[www.caltoncutlery.com]

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
cKc
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 08, 2015 07:30PM
They look good. Thanks for
Letting me know. I'm ordering one

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 12, 2015 01:45AM
Thanks for the heads up about this Bill. I ended up ordering the green micarta handled oen. I know I've been remiss in keeping up with things around here, but I promise to give you guys (and Joe) some feedback about how his 440C performs with very high grit edges, as I don't think any of the rest of you typically run very high grit edges.
cKc
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 12, 2015 07:21AM
What's a high grit?

I like Norton fine which is supposedly 220 but feels a bit finer

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 12, 2015 10:00AM
He usually goes up to 13k I believe beefier micro beveling w a spyderco fine

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Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 12, 2015 02:32PM
Quote
cKc
What's a high grit?

I like Norton fine which is supposedly 220 but feels a bit finer

As C Amber mentioned, on my EDC knives i polish my edge-bevels to 13,000 grit using SPS-II stones and then apex using Spyderco F rods (I've found I get more consistent results from my F rods than UF and lose virtually nothing in push cutting ability).

My EDC tasks typically cause little enough damage to the apex micro-bevel in a day that I can keep the apex touched up daily at virtually 100% of initial sharpness for a couple of weeks after each sharpening, which makes the 30-40 minutes spent to achieve a 13k finish not so bad.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 12, 2015 11:51PM
Steel_Drake-
How do you like the SPS stones? Also, when apexing, do you use the points or the flats of the F rod? How would you rate the grit finish of the F and UF rods, if you had to guess? Thank you!

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 13, 2015 03:16AM
I'm a little confused. I thought the spider I fine is around 1k and uf 3k

So are you going to 13k and dropping down on the apex or am I misreading something?

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 13, 2015 12:34PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Steel_Drake-
How do you like the SPS stones? Also, when apexing, do you use the points or the flats of the F rod? How would you rate the grit finish of the F and UF rods, if you had to guess? Thank you!

I adore the SPS-II stones. Because I use heel-to-toe strokes only and with light pressure, I typically have a hard time getting stones to release fresh abrasive. For this use case, the SPS-II is a good match because it literally has the lowest LCP of any stone on the market, as far as I'm aware. The stones are very fast cutting and give excellent audible and tactile feedback.

I use the flats of the F rods to apex, using literally a few grams of force on the rods.

Now as to the grit rating of the Spyderco F and UF rods, that is a bit of a more interesting question. Lets start with this: A Spyderco M rod leaves a finish with greater push-cutting sharpness than an XXF DMT, and Cliff's experiment on the influence of grit finishes on edge retention indicated that the Spyderco M and F rods have an effective grit rating well above what is typically claimed.

I would rate the Spyderco F as having at least an 8,000 grit rating equivalent to Japanese synthetic sharpening stones. I would use the UF rods, but the ones I have seem to have a nasty habit of tending to burnish rather than cut (I think because they are worn F rods), and create such a shallow apex micro-bevel that it is quite fragile. As I can already trivially push-cut whole sheets of newsprint across the grain at 90/90/90, push cut a tomato down to the cutting board, pass hht-3 or 4 on my super fine head hair, etc. I don't see much of a point in looking for a finer solid sintered abrasive to use.

At some point when I have a chance I will take some USB microscope pictures comparing the scratch patterns of a Spyderco M, F, and UF benchstone to my SPS-II stones, which should quickly demonstrate just how fine the Spyderco sintered ceramic stones really are.
cKc
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 15, 2015 05:29AM
Cool. Thanks. I do quite like the finsish on the spider I medium and fine. But I don't like the easy loading.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 15, 2015 12:33PM
cKc-
Oil, soapy water, or just water helps a lot with the loading and cleaning. Pencil erasers also work good.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 15, 2015 09:34PM
Quote
cKc
Cool. Thanks. I do quite like the finsish on the spider I medium and fine. But I don't like the easy loading.

I use them with a few drops of mineral oil, and, since I only use them for apexing and touch-ups, it is many weeks before they are at risk of loading.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 22, 2015 04:53PM
hey guys, I finally got a morning to get caught up on updating my website and surf the forums.

yes, the first of the 440c carter pattern neckers are out. My wife took the pics, and posted them on my site while I was on an elk hunt with my boy. the one that I have been carrying is still doing very well. the other day, my boy and I went on his first ever antelope hunt on a friends ranch, and we were able to get 2 nice antelope! I used my 440c necker, Which ive been carrying on my belt with some paracord run through the rivets to form a belt loop to dress out both antelope. things were going pretty well until I got a bit too far over while opening up the ribcage on mine and got into the ribs instead of the cartilidge. so they don't cut through rib bones too well, and dulled the edge up. but luckily there was a rock of about the right grit laying on the ground, so I grabbed that and touched the edge up enough to get my work done. then when I got home, 2-3 minutes on my new continuous dmt 325 stone and the edge was back to good again.

this pattern works pretty well on antelope, but I switched back to my normal hunting knife for a mule deer hunt a couple days ago. we got lucky and got into a small group of deer that evening also, and I was able to get a pretty nice 3 year old buck about 20 minutes before dark. and while dressing him out, I was pretty happy to have my normal hunter with the full guard as it was dark when I finished and we have worked enough together that it can pretty much do that work by itself :}

but this first batch of 440c neckers also has a different finish. I made another small wheel attachment for one of my grinders, and used it to do a lengthwise belt finish on them. it worked out pretty well, but I need more practice grinding and finishing like that, as some of them have some ripples in the finish from starting and stopping on the belt.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 22, 2015 07:39PM
Joe-
Nice update! How do you like the stain resistance? Do you like the edge the steel takes, and gow long it holds?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 22, 2015 07:54PM
thanks Jason!

the stain resistance I guess is nice, though Its not really my thing as the knife doesn't show its history as well which I really enjoy in my nonstainless knives. but for those that either don't like patinas, or folks who work in kitchens that don't allow non-stainless knives, I would bet they would really like it.

the edge holding is very good. it usually holds an edge until I run into something that wrecks it {staples, bones, rocks, ect...} . I have not really had the thought while I was using it on something that I wished I had a non-stainless blade. It still outcuts every other stainless blade that I have used.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
October 22, 2015 09:01PM
Joe-
Nice! I live in the Pacific Northwest where it rains 9.5 months out of the year, and usually if it's not raining, everything it's wet.
I have found that rust on a carbon blade is a different animal than on a stainless steel, not sure why, but a little spot on a stainless blade is more noticeable and harder to get rid of without wrecking the finish (I use a few tricks), but with a good carbon steel(10xx, 52100, ect) you just clean the rust off and don't even think twice, which I prefer. I just don't like when my edge apex gets eaten away by corrosion, but if you keep the blade dry and wipe it often, it's fine.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 03, 2015 02:19AM
Just some very brief provisional thoughts.( Note I said PROVISIONAL. These opinions are subjective, and should be taken as such.)

I've been carrying around the green micarta handled 440C necker pretty much continuously since I got it. I have re-profiled the edge-bevel at ~7.5 dps (purely personal preference) and polished the edge-bevel up to 13,000 grit using my SPS-II stones and applied a 15 dps apex micro-bevel using Spyderco Sharpmaker F rods.

The 440C seems to show a slightly greater tendency to form a slight burr in applying the apex micro-bevel than Joe's 1095, but nothing significant enough that it isn't addressed by the same burr-minimization steps I would normally take when applying an apex. It is also having no trouble with being touched-up after light-use on my Spyderco Sharpmaker F rods back to initial sharpness.

In my EDC uses, consisting mostly of food prep, cardboard, and clam-shell packaging, I can see no appreciable downside to using the 440C necker with a very high-grit finish compared to the 1095 necker.

And don't worry, there will eventually be a full review with pictures. Eventually.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 10, 2015 03:28PM
A question: Is there any reason to expect that the recipe used for these 440C knives would result in an HRC significantly above 62? This knife is displaying some (positive) unusual properties and I'm trying to figure out what might be the cause.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 10, 2015 05:06PM
SD, what are the unusual properties?
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 10, 2015 05:44PM
Cliff,

The 440C necker appears to be demonstrating slightly, but noticeably, better high-sharpness edge-retention than any of my other knives, including a necker from Joe in 1095 with has virtually identical geometry. I'm talking about the rate of sharpness fall-off in the first 10-20% of blunting here, not what happens after that (as I don't even know, I typically don't let my knives fall very far below initial sharpness).

This struck me as odd as it has been an outlier compared to all my other EDC knives which have lost their initial sharpness at similar enough rates for me not to notice a difference.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 10, 2015 09:35PM
SD-
You might be seeing the benefits of carbides (Chromium?) in the steel.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 11, 2015 03:48PM
Jason,

Well, several of my other EDC blades are in VG-10, one in 8cr13mov, and one in 154CM and none of them have shown above average high-sharpness edge-retention. Actually I've not really noticed any significant difference between them and 1095, 52100 and Aogami Super in terms of high-sharpness edge-retention, it's only the 440C necker that has stood out enough for me to notice.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 12, 2015 03:01AM
SD, do you have other knives which have similar geometry?
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 12, 2015 03:29AM
SD-
Interesting. It could be a few things, the blade and edge geometry, as Cliff suggested, as well as the grit finish, along with if there's a micro-bevel or not, plus sometimes if the production knives are new, it takes two or three sharpenings before the edge retention shows it's true behavior. Also a production HT might not squeeze as much performance out of a steel as a custom maker striving for performance and does a fair amount of testing (Kyley Harris, Mike Gavko, Jeremy McCullen, Joe Calton, Alexander Noot, Kyle), and with thinner grinds.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2015 06:22PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 12, 2015 02:41PM
Cliff,

I have a necker from Joe in the exact same geometry in 1095. In any cast most of my knives are close to being ~0.010" thick at 1/32" back from the apex either being made that way or re-profiled that way by me.

Jason,

All the knives I am comparing were sharpened the same way, using the same abrasives, to the same grit finish, with the same apex micro-bevel angle and finish, and all the production knives are sharpened possible heat treat damage by power grinding. It is true that this 440C neck knife is the first knife I've gotten in a higher carbide volume steel with a custom heat-treatment.

Again, I want to note that the difference I am seeing is probably on the order of ~10-20%, not something massive. I've just been able to consistently notice the apex wearing slightly less in my EDC tasks and taking fewer passes to touch-up on my Sharpmaker back to more-or-less initial sharpness than all my other EDC blades, which tend to be close enough in high-sharpness edge-retention performance and work required to touch them up after light use that I could not easily tell them apart.
Re: Joe Calton : 440C
November 12, 2015 06:33PM
SD,
Sounds interesting, I would keep an eye on it. You might want to try logging in a notebook to keep track, thats what I do and patterns become easier to recognize and clearer to understanding the pattern.
Nice work, by the way, it isn't easy noticing a 10-20% difference.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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