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All About The Burr, And Removing It

Posted by jasonstone20 
All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 18, 2020 07:33PM
[scienceofsharp.com]

[scienceofsharp.com]

[scienceofsharp.com]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
cKc
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 18, 2020 11:04PM
Anything specific in the article you wanted to highlight.

i think one of the most important observations is to ensure people not the scale on the images as some are ยต (micrometers) and others are (n) nanometre.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 05:55AM
cKc,
Mostly just the pictures. I disagree with most of the conclusions that Todd Simpsons/Science of Sharp makes, and since he doesn't show his work and isn't sharing it, I can't make any real conclusions for myself. That criticism is only of his earlier work, he was conclusions have lined up more with what I know is closer to what is happening than not happening, in his more recent stuff. I do appreciate his work, he was worked and helped a lot of people with their work and research.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 06:10AM
Quote
Science of Sharp

In comparing the two knife edges, above, the results are as expected. The stropped edge easily shaves and push-cuts paper, but has no draw-cutting aggression and does not pass the 3-finger slide test. The broken-burr edge draw-cuts aggressively and easily passes the 3-finger test, but does not shave or push-cut paper

[/quote


He is an example of what I am talking about. This simply isn't true. I know because I have taken edges to ultra-high grits, stropped them with sub-micron compounds, and the edges still had slicing aggression. I have removed the burr on a strop and the knife still shaved and push cut paper.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
cKc
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 06:27AM
Part of this may be a definiation of slicing aggression.

what does he mean by slicing aggression?
what do you mean by it?

for me.. the ability to push cut would be for example on 1 1/2" hemp or sisal rope.. push straight down with no slicing movement at all and "pop" through all the fibres.

slicing aggression would be the ability for me to pull the knife in a draw cut across the rope and with minimal pressure cut the rope.
a simple example is to lay the tip of the knife on the board so the edge is 45deg and slide it across the board so it passes through the rope. if the knife wants to try and ride over the rope and needs more force, its lost slicing aggression, if it draws through without too much increased force it has high slicing agression.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 06:44AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Quote
Science of Sharp

In comparing the two knife edges, above, the results are as expected. The stropped edge easily shaves and push-cuts paper, but has no draw-cutting aggression and does not pass the 3-finger slide test. The broken-burr edge draw-cuts aggressively and easily passes the 3-finger test, but does not shave or push-cut paper

He is an example of what I am talking about. This simply isn't true. I know because I have taken edges to ultra-high grits, stropped them with sub-micron compounds, and the edges still had slicing aggression. I have removed the burr on a strop and the knife still shaved and push cut paper.

I think you didn't quote enough for context, and he has multiple examples

Quote
Full quote
In the first example, the apex is micro-convexed by stropping, removing the foil burr plus approximately 7 microns of blade height. The increase in near-apex angle from approximately 16 to 26 degrees (inclusive) significantly improves the durability of the blade. This blade easily shaves, but has minimal draw-cutting aggression, due to the uniformity of the apex.

in this example he both thickened and rounded the apex.so easy for this conclusion to happen

1 is stropped, and heavily rounded and massive increase in apex angle but thin enough to push cut.. there is no actual teeth left.

this one had the burr ripped off dramatically leaving a much thicker apex.over 1 micron, but like shark teeth double rows of sub micron shards.. so it can rip into things well.


this is not really an indicator of stropping vs not stropping, but stropping as occurs on slack strops with high rounding of the apex. this is also going to be heavily effected by the edge finish before starting to strop.
normally to get push cutting and edge aggression you strop from a lower finish.


all this information does provide valuable data. but it has to be remembered that its the results of one person sharpening and the technique they think is correct.

it needs to be analyzed not just for his conclusion, but the reason for the conclusion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2020 06:46AM by cKc.
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 07:03AM
cKc,
Yes that is a good point. The closest we get is:
Quote
Science of Sharp
no draw-cutting aggression and does not pass the 3-finger slide test
Which tells me the edge has been killed somehow. These guys who like straight razors do a crazy large amount of pass per side on the strop. He mentions 500 laps on plain kangaroo leather, that i 1000 PPS. The metal polish he favors with remove the slicing aggression from a blade also.

Again, this is me looking at things sunny side up, but it would be awesome if Todd was willing and able to work with Cliff and us here at the forum. I think some awesome work would get done. Unfortunately, what I see is people repeating tired tropes and not investigating why things work or pushing for new ground, new discovery. Investigate, explore, learn. Otherwise it is just confirmation bias, you are just showing what you want to show, seeing what you want to see, only being acceptable to praise, dismissing anything else like peer review or honest discussion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 07:09AM
Quote



all this information does provide valuable data. but it has to be remembered that its the results of one person sharpening and the technique they think is correct.

it needs to be analyzed not just for his conclusion, but the reason for the conclusion.

EXACTLY! I hoped Todd would be more open to discussion. He tore into me a few years ago because I left him off a list of people that were doing awesome work on knives. This omission was accidental. He also thought I was trying to destroy and ruin his work, because I was disagreeing with some of what he wrote, but when I asked him what did I say, he quoted a bunch of stuff from Cliff. He thought I was Cliff for some reason, and thought Cliff was out to get him. This was all on the now defunct Sharpening Forum, a collaboration between Ken Schwarz and Tom Blodgette, otherwise I would quote and link the thread.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
cKc
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 07:13AM
Did that occur after you/cliff broke Kens stones and used them as garden ornaments?

Well.. i can't comment on any of what you just said, because I have no point of reference.

with the SEM he is getting visuals that it is simply impossible to tell..

what I get when I sharpen things might match exactly what he does but because its at such a small level 1 micron and less, which I cannot evaluate then who knows..

i wonder what cliff said about his work.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 07:25AM
cKc,
I can't remember exactly what was said, but for example it would be that Cliff said that it is only showing one area of the blade, and a very small part of the blade, how do you know the rest of the blade looks like that, etc. All things that would go away if was open to showing his work and process. When I asked why he didn't do this, he said "What?!? That will make me look stupid, that I don't know what I am doing!", so I left it at that. Now this was years ago, about 5 years, so maybe he has changed his opinion and process. I really don't like talking about this, because Todd isn't hear to offer and explanation of what he said. I could have misremembered or misinterpreted what he was saying. I have tried to invite him to this forum a few times.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 07:31AM
Quote
cKc
Did that occur after you/cliff broke Kens stones and used them as garden ornaments?
\

Yeah it happened around that time. He is a straight razor guy mostly, and I have them, in general, to be very cliquish, worse than BladeForums or the Spyderco Forum. If you are not towing the line, they don't want you around or your input. Gamma/Keith V. Johnson is one of the only straight razor guys who isn't like that. Keith would fit in awesome at this forum.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
cKc
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 07:48AM
Straight Razor guys.. lol




----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 08:07AM
cKc,
Yes, it was around that time also. To Todd's credit, he did try Murray Carters straight razor sharpening technique, so did Tom Blodgette/Jende Industries, and they both got it to work.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 09:59AM
cKc,
The thing that really bothers me is that I would love to work with Todd. Same thing with other guys that don't seem that open to talking about their work. This really frustrates me, because it is very hard to investigate, learn new things, and figure out stuff without an open discussion, especially after the work has been done.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
cKc
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 10:47AM
Quote
jasonstone20
cKc,
The thing that really bothers me is that I would love to work with Todd. Same thing with other guys that don't seem that open to talking about their work. This really frustrates me, because it is very hard to investigate, learn new things, and figure out stuff without an open discussion, especially after the work has been done.

I guess the thing is that not everyone has that extra time. I'm going to pretend to be Todd for an example.
but it could just be "bob" really. he might have a busy job, a family, loves knives, spends some time chatting on some sharpening forums etc, and uses what spare time he has to produce a blog people can read, and look at and occasionally comment on.

now.. his free time is all gone. he's done the work he is interested in, and maybe in his free time he will do more work he is interested in.. but he isn't an academic, or paid to do it. it's not a job.

it might not be that he isn't "open" to conversations, but he's spent all his free time and is chilling with his kids now.. etc.
you might be one of a thousand people that might want to dialog with him, but he is going to reserve that time for his "friends, family, and close online mates"

there is nothing to talk about. I've done what I wanted to do, and presented what I'm willing to present on my blog for anyone to read, but I am not interested in discussing it much more.

then someone says to me..
>>This really frustrates me, because it is very hard to investigate, learn new things, and figure out stuff without an open discussion, especially after the work has been done.

and I might say, dude.. you can repeat what I've done yourself, or take my word for it and extend your knowledge based on what I'm saying is true, but I'm not a teacher, or paid person to do more than I've already been willing to do, its just my hobby.


this can transpire in any hobby.

i could be someone that likes to make model airplanes that take me 50 hours to build. i might like sharing my build, taking closeups, the finished work.. i might even share a lot of ideas and thoughts, or write a book about it.. but it doesn't mean I want to play 20 questions or talk to everyone that reads my book. some times, for some people information is just a 1 way stream for their own interest.


So.. really I guess I'm longwinded saying.. nothing to be bothered about. enjoy what he posts. discuss or critique it because its in public domain, but accept that no one has an obligation to really do more.

it bothers me when people tear a piece of paper in 1/2 with their hands and then say, look how sharp my knife is.. that's the real crime grinning smiley

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 11:34AM
cKc,
I understand that. People have lives and such. I don't have an issue with that. I am just saying at the very least, be open to conversations and questions other that those that are praiseworthy or do not conflict with your conclusions or view. That is what I mean by work with. Lets bounce ideas off each other, share references and other peoples work and research. If I understand things right, Todd is an academic and works in a technical field, along with having a PhD in Imaging.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston
__
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp
__
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes
__
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
StoneSharpEdges

Jason D. Stone on YouTube
Re: All About The Burr, And Removing It
June 19, 2020 02:12PM
Quote
cKc


all this information does provide valuable data. but it has to be remembered that its the results of one person sharpening and the technique they think is correct.

There are three main issues, I have looked at his pages awhile ago, maybe they are different now :

-he has little to no experience with knives, and often makes absurd generalizations on use such as 20 cuts into plastic show that an edge doesn't suffer carbide tearout, that shows a complete lack of understanding of edge performance, it would be like saying a rod is suitable for big game fish because you landed a 2 lbs trout

-he generalizes based on his skill/experience/ability with sharpening to generalities, this is also absurd

-he generalizes on steels based on tiny sample sizes, often one

Again, as often, it doesn't matter what equipment you have if you don't understand what you are trying to study.
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