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Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review

Posted by CliffStamp 
Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 11, 2013 04:54PM
Video :





This is the kind of thing that demonstrates the toughness of the mid-carbon blades, this is what toughness means in a steel. Now imagine that knife and put away the sledge hammer and axe and just use a wooden stick as the baton and consider just how fragile it makes this knife look :



me2
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 11, 2013 05:49PM
The perception of toughness has been horribly scewed in knifedom. How would an Outcast in D2 handle that? Yet they are intended for the same type of work. The notion that any of the "super" steels is really tough is quite laughable.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 11, 2013 06:08PM
Damn! I've been at work all day wanting to post Mile's new E-nep video... which I haven't seen yet the finger smiley

Can't wait to watch this one.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 11, 2013 06:46PM
Quote
me2
The notion that any of the "super" steels is really tough is quite laughable.

It is mainly a misuse of toughness in most cases. For example someone will cut a lot of hemp and note that the edge didn't roll/dent and then claim the steel is very "tough". To note how silly that is, just think how solid sintered ceramic would do in such a test of "toughness".

In most other claims it is just a case of the individuals not knowing the actual ranges for toughness in steels and the over abundance of high carbide steels and other sillyness in knives which means that any blade which isn't ultra-brittle is thus concluded to be tough.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 13, 2013 03:37AM
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 13, 2013 12:41PM
Those tests look pretty cool. Shows what 5160 steel is capable of when heat treated right. I just found this video below.



Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 16, 2013 09:17PM
toughness , i think it is an ability of prevent Cracking spread , low Alloy steels are shinning at this.

strengh , it is an ability of prevent Deformation , so high alloy steels , in general , with high strengh than low alloy steels.


i am sorry for my poor English , i always wondering that strengh was a Overemphasised conception for making knife &sword , while toughness is the most important factor here .

nowdays , most of makers do not know the important of toughness , change another word , do not know how tough a knife or sword should be.and with the hype of cutting retention , more an more consumers think they should get a blade with high retention , so these two tendency pushed the blades made of so called supper steel more frigile.

I always wondering , is retention a important factor for now?

i perfer a outdoor blade with normal retention and high toughness to one with high cutting retention but some what frigile.

i do not care low toughness on the hunting 、 kicten or even edc knives , cause i can near completely control the job .

dingy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2013 09:38PM by dingy.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 16, 2013 10:15PM
Quote
dingy
I always wondering , is retention a important factor for now?

I like having as much edge retention as possible ideally, but not if it is going to make it difficult for me to sharpen. I like having as much toughness as possible ideally, but I still want to be able to cut things with my knife without having to sharpen it after every use. These are basically just mental guidelines, because from what I have experienced...

I can't tell the difference in edge retention between:
- 5160 (Ontario and Aranyik)
- Aus8 (Cold Steel and Boker)
- Inox (Victorinox steel)
- 8cr13mov (Kershaw)
- G2 (Spyderco)
- 440? (Mtech)
- Several others I can't think of off the top of my head.

I used to think I could tell the difference, but the more I did side by side whittling with these various knives the more I realized I had been fooling myself. I just don't notice a difference in edge retention.

I do notice a difference in ease of sharpening however. All of my 5160 knives are easier to sharpen. The rest are about the same although the thinner the edge the easier it is to sharpen. Of the above examples, if you take out the 5160 blades, the CS and the Victorinox are the easiest to sharpen, but I can tell it is from how thin their edges are. For instance, it is easier to sharpen the smaller & thinner Victorinox blades over the larger ones. The CS blade is so much thinner than the Boker (same steel) and it is much easier to sharpen... for me at least. Some of the 5160 blades have thick edges but they are still easy to sharpen. So as far as the steel itself I only have noticed 5160 being easier to sharpen.

Something I have been interested in is how hard should a woods knife be. I've noticed that many that are made now can have hardness ratings in the high 50s and low 60s. Well, that is fine as long as the blade doesn't break or chip. My Ontario SP50 is rated at 53-55 HRC, doesn't have toughness issues that I have seen, doesn't have chipping issues that I have seen, has a relatively thin edge for a large knife, and as I've said above I can't see that it retains its edge to a lesser degree than any of my other knives.

From my personal experience I have to conclude that the edge retention differences people talk about are overblown, and that wood processing knives are generally made too hard. I don't doubt that different steels have different levels of potential edge retention, but on a practical level I just don't think it amounts to much.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 16, 2013 10:24PM
Dingy, I just read your post on the Flying Steel video and it reminded me of something. I also have CS throwing knives. The Perfect Balance Throwers.

I actually can see a difference in edge retention in these knives. They have the poorest edge retention of any knives I own. I haven't used them in so long that I sometimes forget about them.

I used to throw them along with my Aranyik E-nep. The edge on the CS Perfect Balance Throwers roll very easily compared to the edge on the Aranyik. So, I would say the CS Perfect Balance Thrower is too soft.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 17, 2013 09:59AM
I would bet that the throwers, like most of the CS products, maybe even more so, are likely to have seriously burnt edges from the bevels. If you file them you may see a difference in how it responds to the file. The might of course have just left it as rolled either.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 17, 2013 11:55AM
Quote
CliffStamp
I would bet that the throwers, like most of the CS products, maybe even more so, are likely to have seriously burnt edges from the bevels. If you file them you may see a difference in how it responds to the file. The might of course have just left it as rolled either.

About how much metal do I have to remove to get to the non-burnt stuff?
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 17, 2013 12:51PM
Depends, could be a mm at worst, but if it is that then you will see immediate difference each time you file/x-coarse grind the edge.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 17, 2013 09:55PM
Quote
CliffStamp
I would bet that the throwers, like most of the CS products, maybe even more so, are likely to have seriously burnt edges from the bevels. If you file them you may see a difference in how it responds to the file. The might of course have just left it as rolled either.


man, what you said is not the case , the throwers from CS , is really soft ,

my GI TANTO and kukuri machete are harder little bit .
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 18, 2013 01:38PM
Quote
Chum
From my personal experience I have to conclude that the edge retention differences people talk about are overblown, and that wood processing knives are generally made too hard. I don't doubt that different steels have different levels of potential edge retention, but on a practical level I just don't think it amounts to much.

Just depends on the purpose of the knife, is the knife going to be 'slicing' or 'chopping'.

If the purpose is 'slicing' than hardness and edge retention should be the top priority. Sort of like those super blue Japanese kitchen knives at are above 60. Generally one good sharpening without misuse could last years! This is desired for surgical knives, razors, and other knives which are just sharpened once, or sharpened by professionals. For utility use these super hard knives excel, that is why the Japanese use shiroigami in their hand planers.

However if the purpose is chopping, well then... This is the problem. However with technology is what it is, manufacturers can use hi-speed steels which are much harder. But it seems to me those steels are not the answer, most of the commercial chippers and log splitters aren't using hi-speed steel that I know of. Not to mention lawnmowers... But maybe they are just being cheap?
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 18, 2013 09:18PM
Quote
Aranyik
Quote
Chum
From my personal experience I have to conclude that the edge retention differences people talk about are overblown, and that wood processing knives are generally made too hard. I don't doubt that different steels have different levels of potential edge retention, but on a practical level I just don't think it amounts to much.

Just depends on the purpose of the knife, is the knife going to be 'slicing' or 'chopping'.

If the purpose is 'slicing' than hardness and edge retention should be the top priority. Sort of like those super blue Japanese kitchen knives at are above 60. Generally one good sharpening without misuse could last years! This is desired for surgical knives, razors, and other knives which are just sharpened once, or sharpened by professionals. For utility use these super hard knives excel, that is why the Japanese use shiroigami in their hand planers.

However if the purpose is chopping, well then... This is the problem. However with technology is what it is, manufacturers can use hi-speed steels which are much harder. But it seems to me those steels are not the answer, most of the commercial chippers and log splitters aren't using hi-speed steel that I know of. Not to mention lawnmowers... But maybe they are just being cheap?

Have you noticed any difference in edge retention between different steels?

Again, I'm sure that there are differences, I just can't see those differences doing anything I do with knives. If someone is doing high volume, precise, cutting tests I imagine they would see a difference. I'm sure that machines that cut... whatever it is they are made to cut, are designed with steels that have a higher edge retention. I'm just not sure that these pocket folders, or bushcrafting knives that people love to talk about are really seeing any kind of measurable benefit from steels with better edge retention.

I had honestly believed I could see the difference in edge retention, with my various knives, based on the steel. The more I did back to back whittling the more that belief faded.

I don't do a lot of kitchen work, so perhaps it is more apparent with kitchen knives, but from what little I do in the kitchen... I'm not seeing any difference.

Punch this into Google "the best edge retention steel" and you will find many, many answers. Often times people will give you links to testing that is done by someone else. Often those links will be to testing Ankerson has done. How many people actually notice a difference though? They are just repeating something they have read.

Let's say you have two Spyderco Mules. One is made out of S90V (known for it's high edge retention) and the other is made out of 5160 (known for toughness, not edge retention.) You start cutting cardboard with the two knives to see which has better edge retention. Let's say that after 100 cuts you notice that the S90V is cutting a little better than the 5160. That proves that the S90V has better edge retention, right? Were the two edges exactly the same before you started your test? Were the two knives the same hardness? Were the cuts you were making the exact same length and done with the exact same motion? Would you be able to tell if the two edges were the same? Perhaps they had the same edge angles but one was toothier than the other. I personally don't have the equipment to test such a thing. I mean, if they were drastically different I could tell... but just a little different? Nope, I wouldn't be able to tell. So what made the difference in the cutting test, the steel or the differences in the edges? Now ask yourself how many people that give their opinion on the subject were able to known the difference.

My apologies. I've had diarrhea of the keyboard the last few days. The weather has been cold and shitty and I haven't been getting outside. I can't seem to stop typing these overly lengthy post.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 18, 2013 09:51PM
Quote
Chum

Punch this into Google "the best edge retention steel" and you will find many, many answers.

How many tests are done blind (or similar unbiased methods), any that are not can be disregarded - see what is left.

The vast majority of what you see is pure perception and is thus riddled with nonsensical contradictions. The most extreme is that low carbide stainless steels have "horrible" edge retention (AUS-8) yet low carbide non-stainless steels have "excellent" edge retention (1084, 52100, etc.). This is completely false both from direct materials data (steel properties) and direct testing (Verhoeven, etc.), yet it keeps being repeated and anyone who says that is directly showing all they are reporting is placebo/bias.

In general you have to be very careful to see edge retention differences because most steels are very similar and most knives are very dissimilar and so differences in :

-edge angle
-initial sharpness
-materials cut
-how materials cut

tend to dominate because the edge retention difference due to steel even in extremes is only a factor of 2:1, yet those other differences noted can easily be 1000:1.

Take a 5160 blade and a S90V blade and get everything very close and in general, over a period of time you will on average see the S90V go further between sharpening if you use high angles and use the knives to very low sharpness. However if you grind the 5160 a little thinner, leave the edge just a little more coarse it will easily outlast the S90V blade on slicing (a little more polished for push cutting). If you normalize the sharpening time (spend the same time on each) it is very likely the 5160 blade will be better in general . If you grind to very low angles, very high sharpness and keep the blade very sharp then 5160 will in general be better, and much faster/easier to maintain.

But if you ask, 99% of people will react as if you asked "Who would win in a fight Mike Tyson or Tom Green?"
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 19, 2013 05:48AM
One common and enduring problem is that edge angle gets seldomly mentionned and rarely measured, which should be the first step for any review.
Based on that steel comparison seems quite futile: as Landes puts it: "it's geometry that cuts, steel only determines for how long".

By the way has anyone an opinion regarding the catra hobby goniometer. It's a bit pricey for what it is, but then it's about the price of a single knife.
[www.catra.org.uk]
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 19, 2013 08:21AM
Quote
bubo
By the way has anyone an opinion regarding the catra hobby goniometer. It's a bit pricey for what it is, but then it's about the price of a single knife.
[www.catra.org.uk]

That's an interesting little device.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 19, 2013 08:25AM
You can buy an angle cube which will measure edge angles which works on a much simpler mechanic, cktg has them.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 19, 2013 10:35AM
Quote
CliffStamp
You can buy an angle cube which will measure edge angles which works on a much simpler mechanic, cktg has them.

Thanks Cliff. If anyone else is interested...

Angle Cube
$32.95 at ChefKnivesToGo CKTG Angle Cube
Product Description: The Angle Cube is the best way we know how to accurately determine the angle that your knives are being sharpened. The cube is made from heavy duty aluminum alloy with a chrome finish and has strong magnets on 2 sides to attach to your blades. It's easy and works great! The video shows the angle cube and how it works in conjunction with the Edge Pro. Many use it for free hand sharpening too.


Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 19, 2013 01:01PM
@ Chum

A simple philosophy is that if you can sharpen your steel, it's good, and the harder it is to sharpen that longer that edge will stay. thumbs up

So if your not seeing any difference in edge retention, than just go with the one that is easier to sharpen.
Re: Aranyik K0 E-nep | Full Review
January 19, 2013 01:38PM
Quote
Aranyik
So if your not seeing any difference in edge retention, than just go with the one that is easier to sharpen.

I agree, but I do like to keep an open mind on the subject. There are many steels, and many knife geometries, that I haven't tested for myself.
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