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CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)

Posted by Caraldc 
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 19, 2014 01:16PM
Just found this by accident somehow. Not sure if it is before or after the three videos in the original post.









Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2014 04:15PM by CliffStamp.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 21, 2014 09:01PM
I've got a few Crk's with s35vn and they hold up just fine for me, I can't tell a difference between Spyderco s30v and Crk's s35. My Crk's and spyderco s30v seem to dull by microchip ping and same with s35 but not as noticeable.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 23, 2014 04:10PM
I didn't watch the Reeves video yet, I will check it out. These are the types of things that put knife users, knife testers/reviewers, and people on youtube in a bad light. If you are going to do this type of thing, you need to take as many factors as you can into account that can have an effect on the outcome, it is not fair to the knife maker\producer\designer, nevermind the end user/consumer to do otherwise. Just my $0.02.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 04:36AM
Quote
jasonstone20
I didn't watch the Reeves video yet, I will check it out. These are the types of things that put knife users, knife testers/reviewers, and people on youtube in a bad light. If you are going to do this type of thing, you need to take as many factors as you can into account that can have an effect on the outcome, it is not fair to the knife maker\producer\designer, nevermind the end user/consumer to do otherwise. Just my $0.02.

I think how much effort you put into the structure of your testing is relative to the type of testing you are doing. If you watch the video, the knife completely under performs. He guessed the HT was off, and as I understand it the CR camp have since said that the HT on their early S35 blades was incorrect. I don't think he bashed the maker with this video, there was just something wrong with his knife.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 05:27AM
Quote
Reijo

... as I understand it the CR camp have since said that the HT on their early S35 blades was incorrect.

Anyone have a source for that?

There was some concern about a Sebenza which was tested at a very low hardness (52) however Reeve measured the same blade at 59 HRC. I don't recall a conclusion as threads started to be locked and posts like this were common :

Quote

"I wanted to know if my small 21 was at least in the same ball park as others I have, so I did a brief test. I had a box used to ship gallon jugs of chemicals. It was heavy cardboard with very thick corrugation in the middle, at least an inch thick. It had been sitting in my attic for a couple of years.

I cut about 13 feet each with three knives - small 21, PM2 in S35VN, and PM2 in S30V. All were sharpened with an EF DMT, all easily shaved my arm hair at the start. I free hand sharpen, and I never measure the angles, but it is in the neighborhood of 30 degrees inclusive.

All still shaved my arm hair afterward, though not as cleanly. They pretty much felt the same.

Sure, it wasn't very much cardboard (even though it was pretty thick stuff), and a longer test may have shown any differences if they actually exist, but this test told me all I wanted to know."

That is one of the big problems in the industry, people think in order to cut ten feet of cardboard you need a properly hardened, 60 HRC, high carbide PM steel.

Ref : [www.bladeforums.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2014 06:23AM by CliffStamp.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 10:11AM
I did a few scans on this most of it references the same work (John's) and most of it is just name calling and people using terms that don't understand them : [www.jerzeedevil.com] .
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 11:00AM
Quote
Reijo
Quote
jasonstone20
I didn't watch the Reeves video yet, I will check it out. These are the types of things that put knife users, knife testers/reviewers, and people on youtube in a bad light. If you are going to do this type of thing, you need to take as many factors as you can into account that can have an effect on the outcome, it is not fair to the knife maker\producer\designer, nevermind the end user/consumer to do otherwise. Just my $0.02.

I think how much effort you put into the structure of your testing is relative to the type of testing you are doing. If you watch the video, the knife completely under performs. He guessed the HT was off, and as I understand it the CR camp have since said that the HT on their early S35 blades was incorrect. I don't think he bashed the maker with this video, there was just something wrong with his knife.

I watched the video. One of my points is these internet and youtube 'fails'. When he stopped cutting to rope, he was having problems cutting the phone book paper. How is that a fail? He couldn't display the damage to the edge, if I where a maker, I wouldn't be impressed with the testing or the methods that took place. On the other hand, I commend people for doing these tests, if you pay $300+ for a knife it had better perform. I see one of the problems is the lack of a standard language, lack of standardized testing, ect. in the knife industry, and the resistance of some producers/makers of any type of standards or open discussion.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 11:12AM
Quote
jasonstone20

When he stopped cutting to rope, he was having problems cutting the phone book paper. How is that a fail?

This is a reasonable question, unfortunately it doesn't get asked as often as it should. It should also be asked when people claim a knife "succeeds" because of the same type of evidence.

If you can't answer this question then those results (and that type of work) are meaningless :

"How many cuts should be made for a X steel to classify as problematic, ok and superior performance?"

If you ask that question then you will commonly get people start to ramble on about all the "variables" but yet the same people use that work and make those exact statements but themselves admit they don't have the knowledge to do it.

Quote

I see one of the problems is the lack of a standard language, lack of standardized testing, ect. in the knife industry, and the resistance of some producers/makers of any type of standards or open discussion.

To be fair, a lot of makers and even manufacturers will talk about that openly and critically. What I would suggest is to just support the people who do and let the rest live in their fantasy world of make believe.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 11:43AM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
jasonstone20

When he stopped cutting to rope, he was having problems cutting the phone book paper. How is that a fail?

This is a reasonable question, unfortunately it doesn't get asked as often as it should. It should also be asked when people claim a knife "succeeds" because of the same type of evidence.

If you can't answer this question then those results (and that type of work) are meaningless :

"How many cuts should be made for a X steel to classify as problematic, ok and superior performance?"

If you ask that question then you will commonly get people start to ramble on about all the "variables" but yet the same people use that work and make those exact statements but themselves admit they don't have the knowledge to do it.

Quote

I see one of the problems is the lack of a standard language, lack of standardized testing, ect. in the knife industry, and the resistance of some producers/makers of any type of standards or open discussion.

To be fair, a lot of makers and even manufacturers will talk about that openly and critically. What I would suggest is to just support the people who do and let the rest live in their fantasy world of make believe.

Amen to that. If you live long enough, hopefully you will figure that out.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 11:47AM
With S35VN, Davis's work really shouldn't even be discussed. The failure of his Sebenza was so extreme that I don't really think it holds much wider significance.

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Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 12:06PM
This test is interesting:
SmokeEater s30v vs s35vn
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 12:27PM
Quote
jasonstone20

...
Amen to that. If you live long enough, hopefully you will figure that out.

Ha, I already know the answer to the question I asked, most people just don't like it so they pretend it doesn't exist.

I don't think it is fair to say John's work should be ignored, especially when Reeve has never acknowledged it was a defect.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 02:23PM
I was speaking of the collective 'you'.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 02:32PM
I think JDavis's work is important. But as many issues with Nozh's personality and inflexibility, he did raise some good questions and developed a great process for cutting rope. Just with JDavis, or anyone else, you need to try to take into account as many real possibilities into acount, and run them by a few people for their input/analysis before declaring a ' fail', because there is a possibility your methods can skew the results. We can all agree, that what happened to the CRK blade shouldn't have happened, but it would be nice to have some pictures of the blade and some microscope shots to see what is going on. One persons dull blade can be the sharpest that another person has seen.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 03:25PM
Quote
jasonstone20
One persons dull blade can be the sharpest that another person has seen.

Ha, I sharpened my friends little kitchen knife the other day, and then realized she just leaves it laying out in her dorm. No sheath, no place to put it. Just laying out there. So I left it with light reflecting off the edge and told her it was sharp.

She commented to me that it was the sharpest knife she had ever seen about a day ago.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 06:18PM
Quote
jasonstone20

[...]
We can all agree, that what happened to the CRK blade shouldn't have happened...

This is where you have to be really careful, what do you mean it should not have happened?

For example if John had used a $5 import and the same thing had happened what would the comments be?

Why would the exact same experiment produce two very different commentaries when the results are the same?

This is where you have to be very careful and not let what you think you know influence how you judge observations.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 24, 2014 10:07PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
jasonstone20

[...]
We can all agree, that what happened to the CRK blade shouldn't have happened...

This is where you have to be really careful, what do you mean it should not have happened?

For example if John had used a $5 import and the same thing had happened what would the comments be?

Why would the exact same experiment produce two very different commentaries when the results are the same?

This is where you have to be very careful and not let what you think you know influence how you judge observations.

Sorry, I was still holding to my previous statement that if a knife costs +$300, it had better perform. If I spend $50 on a knife, I expect it to perform. With all the excellent knives out there for not a lot of money, that continue to just work, I believe there are no excuses. If you can get a SAK, Opinel, or a Mora for <$20, that cut and cut and keep cutting, it is a sad state of affairs when a knife, not just related to price, but of supposed superior quality, lacks real world performance.

If it was a $5 import, personally I'd be impressed with the results.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 05:38AM
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CliffStamp


Anyone have a source for that?

I have checked through my history and just find a lot of third hand comments.

I suppose if Davis had cut a bunch of rope with his Sebenza and it had eventually dulled then I wouldn't have found it very interesting or informative, because the testing just isn't controlled enough, so why should I find the failure under the same circumstances to be interesting? Don't know.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 05:51AM
Quote
jasonstone20

[...]
I was still holding to my previous statement that if a knife costs +$300, it had better perform.

No argument there, but for a moment step back and consider that Reeve never actual noted (that I saw and I read most of the threads, please correct me if I am mistaken anyone) that this was a defect. The performance was actually defended by more than one person who argued that John abused the blade by cutting such a large volume of rope and especially as he continued when the knife was dull. It comes back to again that makers/manufacturers often will not make concrete statements and thus even bad/ok/excellent performance standards vary wildly. The exact same set of data can be interpreted by one person as being excellent and by another person as showing horrible performance.

This is improving though as more people discuss performance in a frank manner and are moving beyond hype/misinformation and more people are becoming aware of what knives can do. If you compare what is discussed now vs how things were talked about in the 90's there is a huge difference. Makers like Joe Calton, Kevin Cashen, Roman Landes, Kyley Harris, Jeremy McCullen, Mike Gavac, Elliot Williamson, etc. are bringing metallurgy and practical application into open discussion. It is very common now to be able to go on YT, watch a maker do some work with his knife and get an appreciation for exactly what they mean by cuts/chops/sharpens well and there is frank discussion of metallurgy.

The way it changes is fairly simple, the more people that have these types of discussions and ask the relevant questions the more it will advance.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 07:12AM
Quote
Reijo

I have checked through my history and just find a lot of third hand comments.

I don't want to come off as harsh here, but when you are making statements, please consider the justification and distinguish from first hand statements vs second/third hand inferences. I have no problem with someone saying "Well Bill told me that Mike told him that at the Blade Show that he over heard Chris Reeve saying ...." but if you say it just as "... Reeve has noted that ..." it implies a much stronger statement. In the first one most people would just disregard it as rumor, the second one seems to say it is an open and public disclosure from Reeve than anyone can verify/confirm.

Quote


I suppose if Davis had cut a bunch of rope with his Sebenza and it had eventually dulled then I wouldn't have found it very interesting or informative, because the testing just isn't controlled enough, so why should I find the failure under the same circumstances to be interesting? Don't know.

This is an excellent question and you have hit on the critical point. This is one of the main problems with that kind of work, people often interpret from it what they want to see vs what it actually says.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 08:24AM
I just re-read the post I responded to, and it reads to me completely different than when I read it. You are right, Mr. Stamp, that when doing testing, you need to be aware of the bais than can play a role in what you are doing. It should matter whether it is a $300 custom knife or a $5 import, the test is the test, results are the results. To parse it out, everyone has some bias when making a personal purchase of a knife, which is different than buying a knife just for testing. This is a problem in these 'tests', because some of the time, it is the testers own personal knife that he has dreamed about buying, researched it, and finally was able to hunt one down, and buy it. Now he is the proud owner of x knife, designed by y, with z steel. You can here disappointmemt when a knife doesn't perform as expected. On the other hand, even if someone buys a knife with just testing it until it implodes mentallity, you can still have expectations of brand x, design y, and steel z.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 08:25AM
Not harsh. I must endeavour to ensure the accuracy of what I am saying.

Another thought - if similar testing to the Davis testing yielded results that were far beyond expectations, I think that would be interesting, worthy of further investigation. If that is true then the opposite should also be true. I feel like that Sebenza should have performed better, and I am interested to know why it behaved in the way it did.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 08:36AM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
jasonstone20

[...]
I was still holding to my previous statement that if a knife costs +$300, it had better perform.

No argument there, but for a moment step back and consider that Reeve never actual noted (that I saw and I read most of the threads, please correct me if I am mistaken anyone) that this was a defect. The performance was actually defended by more than one person who argued that John abused the blade by cutting such a large volume of rope and especially as he continued when the knife was dull. It comes back to again that makers/manufacturers often will not make concrete statements and thus even bad/ok/excellent performance standards vary wildly. The exact same set of data can be interpreted by one person as being excellent and by another person as showing horrible performance.

This is improving though as more people discuss performance in a frank manner and are moving beyond hype/misinformation and more people are becoming aware of what knives can do. If you compare what is discussed now vs how things were talked about in the 90's there is a huge difference. Makers like Joe Calton, Kevin Cashen, Roman Landes, Kyley Harris, Jeremy McCullen, Mike Gavac, Elliot Williamson, etc. are bringing metallurgy and practical application into open discussion. It is very common now to be able to go on YT, watch a maker do some work with his knife and get an appreciation for exactly what they mean by cuts/chops/sharpens well and there is frank discussion of metallurgy.

The way it changes is fairly simple, the more people that have these types of discussions and ask the relevant questions the more it will advance.

I am old enough and have been into knives long enough to remember the knife
world back then, and I don't miss the 1990's at all when it comes to knifes. I felt like I was gambling everytime I bought a knife, and that I was being taken for a ride each time I owned a knife. I don't miss it. The makers you named are definitly a breath of fresh air in the industry, Murray Carter isn't quite as open as the other makers you named, but he does show a lot of what goes into a knife, and he has the courage of his convictions, so bless him for that!
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 08:47AM
Quote
Reijo

[...]

I think that would be interesting, worthy of further investigation.

Here is the real problem, can you answer this question :

"How many cuts of 1/2" rope with (insert steel here) is poor/good/superior performance?"

If you ask that question then you will get hit with things like "the variables man, the variables!" . But if you can't answer that question then how can you possibly make any kind of judgment on the outcome?

What people tend to do is something like this :

-I know that this steel is a good steel (the justification for this is pretty much not provided)
-If it does a lot of cuts that means I have a good one
-If it doesn't do a lot of cuts then that means I must have had a bad one

The problem with that kind of reasoning is that you just assume the result and interpret the experiment to prove your conclusion. This is anti-science, but often you have to look carefully to see it.

But again, just start asking this question :

"How many (insert some type of cutting here) with (insert steel here) is poor/good/superior performance?"

Anyone that can't answer it should not be talking about steels based on that kind of work because they can't interpret it.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 10:21AM
That is why I keep my mouth shut and ask a lot if questions. Before you made you webite, Dr. Stamp, do you know how long I lurked in forums? This and one other are the only place you can actually have a discussion, and even so, people still get there feelings hurt! I feel people should save their feelings for their loved ones and small cute furry cuddly things like puppies and kittens. What do feelings have to do with knife steel and they way a knife cuts? It is one thing if you built the knife, and are looking to improve upon it, anytime you labor over something, emotions can get mixed in, but getting upset over an opinion or a knife didn't cut like you had expected, borders on ego tripping.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2014 05:30PM by jasonstone20.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 04:13PM
It seems more straight forward to me to set a benchmark for failure than it does for a 'beyond expectations' result. A good knife example for this could be the use of the word 'lock' in relation to folding knives which don't really lock at all, but there are surely any number of examples.

I am probing some what here, but to me there is something about failures. Perhaps they are just more explicit. This is a general thought and is not directed at the Sebenza video in particular.

Jason - I am all for discussion, I tend to put ideas forward and have them assessed and allow that to inform my understanding. It is very difficult to do that in environments where people are possessive of their own ideas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2014 04:14PM by Reijo.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 04:28PM
Indeed, for example lets say you sharpen a knife and make one cut through cardboard or hemp and the knife then can not cut paper. Now there are a lot of pretty vague descriptions being used here but surely we could agree that if a knife could not be sharpened, make one cut on a 1/2" piece of hemp and still slice a piece of photocopy paper then it likely points to a problem. The real trick is how many cuts do you have to get to before it moves from "that is definitely a problem" to "there might be a problem" . However I think just asking these questions gets you a long way, the problem is that people simply don't.

Here is an example :






Now I like Evil, he seems like a nice guy, but he jumped from doing that with S110V to concluding S110V was a superior steel because of it and posted this on the forums (more than once). My first reaction was simple - is that really superior performance? I then did it with a completely basic knife and in a ridiculous volume to no ill effect. My conclusion was therefore it isn't superior, it isn't even good, even a "bad" knife could do that. but it all starts with just asking that question - what is good/bad/ugly.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 04:48PM
Quite, as soon as you get beyond a catastrophic failure you are into difficult water - not least because as soon as you get beyond this point a major factor is the person behind the object.

A good example might be brakes on a car. In a situation where brakes fail completely, it does not matter who is behind the wheel. As soon as there is some performance it could make a great deal of difference in the interpretation of their performance, not least because different people will have different expectations informed by different experiences and patterns of use.

Put a healthily dose of marketing, purchasing for fashion or identity reasons and a lack of understanding of the basic principles - say, like the knife industry, and you could easily reach a point where value statements and comparisons become meaningless.

Apologies if I am treading on worn ground here.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 05:51PM
This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. It reminds me in the '90s when Cold Steel came out with their testing videos, more than once I was told Cold Steel is the best knife made, just look at the videos, ect. But if you are familar with knife performance, you will realize and sharp knife can do that. I have $2 paring knifes that will cut a bag full of zip ties and not chip, and still shave.
Re: CPM S35VN from different makers (performance)
November 25, 2014 05:52PM
That is a big part of the problem.
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