Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

Norton 6" Economy Stone

Posted by me2 
This forum is currently read only. You can not log in or make any changes. This is a temporary situation.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 25, 2015 09:54AM
Maybe a one line explanation of why the Suehiro, being aluminium oxide, works betters on high vanadium steels at low pressures.

And while it is overkill, I do love the Norton for my kitchen knives...literally, just a few passes and I have a shaving sharp aggressive edge that cuts well for a long time in the kitchen. And I usually am in a hurry when I need the kitchen knives sharp.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 25, 2015 02:14PM
Yeah, I didn't add a lot of detail there, however it isn't fully clear in my head as to why so I need to do some experimenting. What I think happens is that under very low force, the abrasive just wears and gets rounded, in high force it fractures and sharp and smaller cutting edges are released. I also need to check the effect of slurry itself by flushing it off once formed. In general moving abrasive (3-body abrasion) is very poor compared to fixed abrasive (2-body). But with stones, releasing slurry is a sign of a fast cutting stone. I think this is indirect though, it isn't the slurry it is the fresh surface of the stone.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 25, 2015 02:57PM
Wouldn't the higher force also have to be related to the binder strength? Bc even if under high force the abrasive fractures into smaller sharper eventually it will wear down unless the binder let's go as well?

And with the Suehiro, I just assumed it was because it was coarse enough that grits ploughed around the carbides, but it was always fresh large pieces due to the release.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 25, 2015 03:44PM
Yes, if you had a binder strength far higher than the abrasive it would lead to issues just as you noted. This is why you have to balance the amount of binder to abrasive as well as the nature of the binder and abrasive. Abrasives can be coated or manipulated in size/shape to increase strength of binding for example.

I don't have some things written very clearly in the writeup yet, but I find that it is often necessary to get something down even as draft to get the ideas worked out. I need to do some experiments to check on what I think is true or not. Freshly lap the coarse side for example and it should work well under low pressure, just wear and stop cutting as it rounds.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 25, 2015 06:51PM
Ok, I got you. Just figured you were looking for some feedback, and so was trying to ask some questions that might help direct things for you.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 25, 2015 07:10PM
I rewrote some parts to make it more clear and added in a comparison in terms of cutting speed to the King.

I was also able to figure out one of the main problems I had with trying to quantify the effects of pressure and not taking into account the surface of the stone. With waterstones this doesn't matter because they stay consistent (generally). However with oil stones and other stones with very strong bonds, they wear and the surface starts galling/burnishing and not cutting. This forces the pressure to have to ramp up significantly to keep them cutting.

The Norton Economy will start to show slurry with ~50 psi on the coarse side when it is freshly cut. However if you use it for a long time and it gets worn, then it will stop cutting. Then if you want to make it slurry you have to apply a lot more pressure, ~5X as much to break the surface down so it can start cutting again. I could not get consistency in what I was measuring until I figured that out and took it into account.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 04, 2015 03:24AM
As another example of optimizing stone application based on how the stone cuts in relation to the pressure. This is a transition bevel applied to remove most of the damage from a chisel :



To remove it, apply a heavy load on the Norton coarse side :

-30 to 35 lbs : 100 to 200 psi

That apex bevel is not visible 150 passes later :




This is past the UCP of the stone :



However, it is only 150 passes to flatten the face of a chisel, it cuts so fast the wear is minimal even when you are past the UCP.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 08, 2015 01:22PM
How would the speed of the Norton Economy Coarse used in this way with the chisel compare with a fresh faced Norton Course India?

What would you say are the optimal uses for these stones; in terms of bevel size, sharpening volume and amount of steel to be removed?

Sorry, you have probably answered these questions indirectly or directly elsewhere, but I'm having trouble pinning all the relevant points together in my head.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 08, 2015 06:43PM
Quote
SecondCrack
How would the speed of the Norton Economy Coarse used in this way with the chisel compare with a fresh faced Norton Course India?

This is a really good question. Before I started working with stones semi-seriously awhile ago I would have said the Crystolon cut faster because that is just what everyone said, it was a common accepted fact, like water was wet. However when I started working with the stones this isn't obvious. What does become obvious is that cutting speed is determined most strongly by :

-grit size

and then, how the grit is worn. The actual substance of the grit makes very little difference in comparison. But then how to explain why people believe the Crystolon stones cut faster. This is the critical part you just can't ignore observations and chalk them up to conspiracies, they have to be explained and what explains them?

What is the big complaint that people make about Crystolon stones - it isn't a common complaint but it is the one that is rarely made? They are too hard and so they don't release abrasive and they just wear and get slick and stop cutting. But here is the thing, how come no one makes that complaint about India stones - because that is how they are expected to behave. Thus when people compare Crystolon vs India they are not comparing aluminum oxide vs silicon carbide they are comparing a freshly cut abrasive to a worn one.

Quote

What would you say are the optimal uses for these stones; in terms of bevel size, sharpening volume and amount of steel to be removed?

As of late I have been experimenting with under grinding edge bevels as I have talked about the Suehiro Ryu thread. This has lead me to be able to use extremely coarse stones on sharpening with the typical drawbacks from over grinding which forms a heavy burr, wastes metal and requires a lot of work to clean up the edge bevel to apply an apex bevel. Using this technique I can jump right from the 300 grit Ryu (46 micron) to the 6 micron MXF DMT .

For general use though :

-coarse side can do major shaping, flatten the face of a chisel
-fine side, remove minor chips

The best part of both of them is that they can easily take very high force and thus produce very high cutting speeds. In comparison if you try this on a waterstone they just cut the stone apart and you three body abrasion where the abrasive just rolls around.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 15, 2015 01:52AM
Quote
SecondCrack
How would the speed of the Norton Economy Coarse used in this way with the chisel compare with a fresh faced Norton Course India?
.

Using the same high force, small contact area, producing very high pressure 150 to 300 psi :



+



Chisels are not made of the same steel, this one seemed to cut easier than the last one but the stone felt less aggressive (Norton India coarse vs Economy coarse) - yes I know that doesn't make a lot of sense but that is how it felt.

This took twice as many passes as the Economy/Coarse doing the same thing, but again different chisel. The most I would say is that they are both capable of very loads with excessive stone wear and they cut very fast with no loading when used with such and oil.

I would want two very similar chisels and do side-by-side to say which one is faster.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 15, 2015 03:29AM
As a side note, I picked up the Norton Economy 8" on Sunday. I believe it is Aluminum Oxide, the coarse side is brown and the fine gray. Was able to purchase it for under $7 USD. It is a very muddy stone, both sides, akin to the TASK UC, cheap hardware stone, or an Oregon Abrasives Aluminum Oxide 'Oregon Stone' that I bought around the turn of the century (I am not sure they are still made, I haven't seen them is stores locally and can't find anything in the net). Very coarse stone, much like the cheap hardware stones.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 15, 2015 03:35AM
It sounds like we are talking about two very different stones here. The next time I get a chisel I am going to do a little grinding to show the strength of the bond on the one I have as it is very strong.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 15, 2015 04:56AM
Yes, it is very different than the Norton Economy 6". It also is very different from the Norton India stones, which makes me wonder, because the Norton Economy 6" is very close in behavior and make up of the Norton Crystolon stone.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 01, 2015 01:57AM
So I used the coarse side of my stone with oil for the first time, some observations:

-The thing sucked up oil very quickly, I maybe applied two teaspoons or so to it and it still could have used more.

-Stone clogged readily without the application of more oil, was a pain to clean.


I'd rather use my example with water.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 01, 2015 01:58AM
Bill,

Doesn't your coarse side break down very fast and make a slurry?
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 01, 2015 02:04AM
I soaked the 6" in oil overnight.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 01, 2015 02:18AM
Cliff: Yes it does.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 01, 2015 02:20AM
take about half teaspoon of vaseline, smear it on even, blast with hair dryer until vaseline changes from yellowish color to clear, then take it off the heat and blow on it, maybe repeat heating/cooling once more
if the stone starts drinking the vaseline splash with water to cool
when done scrape most of the vaseline off
half a teaspoon is more than enough to do all sides a couple of times
but if you use only a really thin layer it will heat liquify faster and soak in too deep

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 01, 2015 02:21AM
Bill, if the abrasive is breaking down then oil isn't going to be of benefit over water as the abrasive is just going to shed rather than wear.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 06, 2015 04:31PM
I recently used oil on the fine side of this stone, much better luck. It still released abrasive readily, but the oil wasn't absorbed as quickly and did a better job than water in preventing loading.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 06, 2015 06:20PM
I had the same experience with the AlO 8"' version with oil vs water. Other than the oil not drying out as fast, there shouldn't be a difference, right?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2015 06:40PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 12, 2015 07:56PM
So I have used this stone (both fine and coarse sides) with oil several times, haven't noticed much of a difference in and of itself. However, after soaking the stone in water, I was pleased to find that it kept the mud and stone from drying out too quickly. Hmm. I'm starting to like my weird example again.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 16, 2015 02:40PM
I think I am gonna pick up another one of these stones just to see how these are with a stronger bond. I like my stone for grinding, but it doesn't seem to sharpen very well.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 16, 2015 07:03PM
The new stone is much harder, it does release a little abrasive, but not much. Under heavier pressure, it realeases a fair bit of slurry, but not like the other one. I like it a bit better so far, I can get much better edges off this stone, easily achieving an arm hair shave with a draw.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2015 07:52PM by Bugout Bill.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 14, 2016 04:18AM
I have Chris's ChrisS's Norton/Economy, it behaves almost the complete opposite of mine :



I was so surprised by how fast it shed grit as I had to measure the force applied. I did a quick estimate and came up with < 5 psi but that is very low. I measured the force as low as 1/4 to 1/2 lbs and with the contact length and area this indeed produced a pressure of 2.5 to 5 psi and the stone just released grit trivially. It is similar to those big King green blocks.

At first I was not only surprised by puzzled but I quickly found out why this might be the case. My left hand which holds the stone was very soon drenched in oil. At first I was surprised again wondering how that happened as the obvious wasn't so obvious. The oil just goes right through the stone, it behaves as if it has little to no binder. I turned it over and almost in real time you can see the oil reversing.

This is a pretty crazy range. In the same stone from the same manufacturer I have seen among the highest and lowest bond strengths. I think I will call Norton next week and see if I can talk to someone and find out what is up. I would also be curious to see if anyone has this issue with the non-economy line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2016 03:22PM by CliffStamp.
me2
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 14, 2016 12:30PM
That's not my (Chris's) stone, just for clarity. Mine will shed grit like that, but only with 2 hand pressure and the stone on the bench/table. With one hand pressure on my guide blocks, it is quite stable and sheds grit reluctantly. I don't use oil, but water. Oil might be better, but I haven't tried yet. The grit shedding is only on the coarse side. I have not put that much pressure on the fine side yet.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 14, 2016 12:54PM
I have a few (2 or 3) of the older Norton Crystolon stones, and they seem pretty consistent in their make-up and behavior. The 8" Norton Economy (AlO) seems to be a thinner version of their Quickut stone. My 6" Norton Economy (SiC) behavior is pretty close to the Norton Crystolon hones, and if it wasn't for the flattening that needed to be done to the 6" Economy, I would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
March 14, 2016 09:59PM
This was a stone I sent Cliff. I had bought a second one so I though he might be interested in experiencing first hand another extreme of what these do.

Here is the packaging for this particular one bought from Home Hardware:



I believe the SKU# is 87935.

It's good to know I wasn't nuts thinking this thing was a bit on the profuse side throwing abrasive.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 15, 2016 06:49PM
I used ChrisS's stone to clean up a few chisels, all of which had visible damage, the deepest was 1/2" mm deep. A few immediate observations :

-grit similar similar to mine
-bond strength is maybe the same order of magnitude

I could not use the same force and had to scale way back as the stone was just being removed at such a rapid rate I could see it hollowing in real time. Now the stone cut well sure, I had all of the chisels cleaned up and ready to be sharpened in 15 minutes (3 mins per chisel), but I lost more than a teaspoons of abrasive. I will do more quantitative comparisons later but just as a quick note, the difference in these two stones, identical brand/maker are just as different as the largest difference I have seen in stones in general. It is like comparing a Norton India to a TASK.

However, this doesn't mean it is a useless stone, it just means it is suitable for cutting much harder/more abrasive steels and/or working on much larger contact areas. I will so some work on this area as well.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 15, 2016 11:37PM
The Naniwa Superstone 400 again proved why it is one of my favorite stones :

-doesn't require a soak, just spray
-is coarse enough to actually go from the coarse norton economy (which had heavy slurry)
-built up a thick slurry, preventing burr formation

It was just 30-seconds on the Naniwa and then some very heavy stropping on chromium oxide loaded leather to intentionally polish and round the apex to finish.