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Norton 6" Economy Stone

Posted by me2 
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Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 16, 2016 01:52AM
Cliff,
I have been wondering about something. Is the use of the Naniwa 400 SS/King 1k and Naniwa Aotoshi 2k formation of slurry a bonus with using the plateau/3 step methods? Can you get a similar clean apex with a Norton Economy or India Combination stone? Or a cheap hardware stone?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 16, 2016 03:37AM
Jason, you certainly can get a clean and burr free apex without a slurry, and especially without the even colloid type suspension from the Naniwa. It is like asking can you sharpen a knife without good angle control. It is sure you can, but it is easier when you have it.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 16, 2016 11:07AM
I'd like to see you do this stropping on a chopper sometime if / when you get back to making videos.

And that Naniwa does seem like a real winner.How does it compare to the King 1K in the same role? That's my go to after a really coarse stone.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 18, 2016 03:46AM
Colin, the Naniwa has a stronger bond than the King and I use it on easier to grind steels. It will start to stall once I move about ATS-34/D2 type steels. On S90V and similar the Naniwa won't break down fast enough and the surface will lose cutting ability. The King however will keep breaking down and it will cut S90V, M4, 10V, 121REX and anything else. The fact that it has to be soaked is the only real issue I have with that, but that is only a problem due to the where/how I sharpen.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 18, 2016 09:27AM
Awesome Cliff. Really appreciate the comparison/contrast. I agree that that is the biggest downfall of the King. It's slightly annoying to me that after doing whatever work I did and then wanting to resharpen I have to wait for it to soak. I should just permasoak it I guess.

But it does remove readily scratches from the Coarse Norton, although I've only really used it on easy to grind steels.

Thank you again

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 18, 2016 12:13PM
Collin,
You can speed up the time by putting the stone under running water. I don't know why it works, but it gets the stone into working shape faster than soaking.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 18, 2016 04:43PM
Thank you for the tip Jason! I will try it.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 19, 2016 01:37AM
I think, now this is just a guess, but the running water might be because of the water pressure hitting the stone forcing its way in deeper faster.

Think of it as higher pressure filling a water balloon.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 22, 2016 02:05PM
Cliff,
The reason I asked was that when using the Norton Vitrified (sp?) Stones ie India, Crysotolon, SiC Economy, if I cut off the apex the sharpened, I would have a massive burr after one scrubbing PPS on the coarse side. I then tried to use the fine side, same results. What I have just had to do was go to alternate passes and burrĀ minimizations. Would loading the stone help at all? The waterstones used for preparation of the apex don't need any special techniques or attention, but with other stones is this doesn't seem to be the case. Thank you for your time.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 23, 2016 03:32AM
Quote
jasonstone20
The waterstones used for preparation of the apex don't need any special techniques or attention, but with other stones is this doesn't seem to be the case.

Jason, yes, I wrote about this in the past as the critical difference of a stone being easily able to prepare an edge for an apex (shaping) vs setting the apex. If you are grinding on the edge bevel you want a fine slurry to plough into the apex to ensure the burr is minimized. However when you are actually grinding on the apex you don't. You could try to raise a slurry on the very strong bond stones, but they will resist it and you will need to either make one with a diamond stone, or artificially dope the surface. Rather than fight what the stone wants, and basically try to play ping pong with a spoon, just get a stone which does this well, like the King 1000 or Naniwa Superstone 400 or similar. All you need is a very weak bond stone of grit suitable to whatever you are grinding the edge with. I like both of those stones mentioned as they will even allow me to jump right from coarse shaping in just one grit.
me2
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 02:03AM
Still using the Norton E for lots of sharpening. On Cliff's suggestion, albeit months ago, I started using the fine side after the coarse side for shaping. The increase in sharpness is noticeable. The standard way to sharpen the cheap kitchen knives (Publix house brand and Chicago Cutlery Partoku) has changed to shape with fine side at 12 dps, debur, hone with fine side at 15ish dps. Very sharp edges and shaping only takes about 40 strokes on the fine side when using the sharpening blocks.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 09:12AM
Me2- Any chance you could post a photo of your sharpening blocks?
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 11:41AM
Chris-
[youtu.be]

This is a fairly crappy video someone else made with a similar block

[youtu.be]

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 12:41PM
Mark - Thanks. So basically an 8x8" with one end cut to whatever angle you want or 2 2x8" screwed together in a T with the desired angle cut into one edge of each peice. I suppose in the horizontal position you could have two angles on each jig by cutting the ends differently. I agree a horizontal platform is preferable. I've seen people with ones that have adjustable angles. I might try something like this at some point as it potentially speeds thing up over freehand sharpening. I'd like to design something that also held to stones in place.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 08:25PM
Had some time to myself today so I built this from a scrap board.



I'll have to see how comfortable I find it and I may have to find a way of securing the stone depending on the angle but it was easy enough to make and cost next to nothing.

Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 09:55PM
Very clever!

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 10:35PM
Just to be clear, not my original idea. Saw it on YouTube a while back and just decided to make one today. Used it to touch up the Benchmade 810. Worked well. You kind of have to turn it around when you change sides if you don't have equal dexterity with both hands but it does give you a dead even bevel angle. The stone stayed in place well with a blue shop towel underneath it. My only concern is that I used a scrap of pine to make it and the water soaking into the board will probably warp it after a while. I'm going to try to find a 2' piece of 2" cedar or something like that. Or maybe I won't use it enough to bother.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 10:36PM
Cliff,
I was looking for a stone in between a TASK/Garden Hone or the Coarse sides of the Norton's, (100#-200#) that can cut the Class 1 & 2 steels I have without worrying about a burr forming. I have had mixed success with the King and Norton 220 resin bonds, the just need to be kept very flat and the dish readily, but I am just cutting the apex off an already sharp knife, so one or two PPS's are all that's needed before the King 1k. I keep debating on getting the Suehiro 'Chemical' stone, it's in stock at the neighborhood woodworking store.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 10:48PM
You could just seal or paint the wood as well.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 24, 2016 11:09PM
Cliff-
Also, I am looking into stones and sharpening techniques for easy to burr steels, like Class 1 Stainless with a less than optimal HT, like in cheap kitchen knives. Something I can teach to others, without all sorts of sharpening tricks.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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me2
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 25, 2016 01:51AM
Mark and Chris, I have tried horizontal sharpening on my blocks, but have come to prefer vertical. What is it you like about horizontal vs vertical?
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 25, 2016 09:24AM
I know you didn't ask me, but I like the horizontal just because I tend to use it for large blades and the vertical doesn't give enough space to work.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 25, 2016 11:05AM
Quote
me2
Mark and Chris, I have tried horizontal sharpening on my blocks, but have come to prefer vertical. What is it you like about horizontal vs vertical?

I think it is just a matter of what I am used to doing. I have been sharpening plane irons and chisels on the horizontal for almost 20 years as well as if I freehand sharpen it is also horizontal so this feels like a natural progression.

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 25, 2016 11:15AM
Muscle memory
Ability to pivot with the torso on longer finishing strokes
More control avoiding the tip sipping off the stone
Fine control of pressure on specific parts of the blade with the fingers of my left hand for working on problem areas


Benefits of vertical - Easier to keep straight and level
me2
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 25, 2016 11:15AM
I tried it for a year or so. I'm so used to using the Sharpmaker I even do long blades vertically, just in sections. I could get the horizontal to work during a given sharpening session, but then the next one I had trouble matching the old angle. I suppose I'll have to try it again, like I've been trying the plateau/3 step method freehand on the Winchester knife.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
April 25, 2016 11:46AM
I still get slop using it horizontallyl...I don't get better edges than freehanding. But I only use the block for reprofiling, which is to say lowering the edge. It helps me get going until I have a solid new bevel I can feel and work with.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 02, 2016 02:16AM
Quote
CliffStamp

[...]
I did a quick estimate and came up with < 5 psi but that is very low. I measured the force as low as 1/4 to 1/2 lbs and with the contact length and area this indeed produced a pressure of 2.5 to 5 psi and the stone just released grit trivially. It is similar to those big King green blocks.

[...]
This is a pretty crazy range. In the same stone from the same manufacturer I have seen among the highest and lowest bond strengths. I think I will call Norton next week and see if I can talk to someone and find out what is up. I would also be curious to see if anyone has this issue with the non-economy line.

Yeah, I just used the Norton Economy I have and they are night and day. I sharpened another four inexpensive kitchen knives, very high force on the coarse side, almost no grit release with 25-50 psi and it quickly reset the edge bevels. No comparison for easy to grind steels I would prefer the very high strong bond one I have. However, this might change on hard to grind steels.
me2
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 02, 2016 02:33AM
I know I have altered mine by lapping the fine side trying to get it flat, but if one were to just use inexpensive knives, like the cheap kitchen knives and cheap folders and Lite Hunter I've been using lately (before the Manix arrived), it's hard to beat the Norton Economy, at least if one gets a well bonded one. Rebeveling knives and then sharpening them on the fine side produces more than satisfactory edges for knife use, and the Norton Economy deserves at least partial credit for the Chicago Cutlery knife cutting so much cardboard and maintaining a useful edge.
Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
May 02, 2016 03:52AM
Yes, my 6" SiC Norton Economy is a great stone once flattened and kept conditioned.

Cliff,
On another note, using a King 1k and then the 3k side of the Suehiro to prepare the apex, then either a sintered ceramic rod or diamond plate makes the 3-Step method easy and almost foolproof, you get a clean apex and don't have to worry as much getting the apex to form, even on stainless steels with less than ideal heat treatments. I have also found I can go straight from the 1k King to the EEF DMT or Spyderco UF if I an careful. This type of sharpening is almost effortless, and I get the same sharpness that I do off a guided system, in under 5 minutes sharpening (closer to 2 or 3 min).

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Norton 6" Economy Stone
September 14, 2020 12:59AM
After thinning out my used Super Tinker, where someone did a very poor job of sharpening and regrinding it (1/4 of the blade was gone, the blade looks like only half of it is there:



I did two sessions of thinning out the blade, and there also was a deep gouge that ran from spine to edge in the blade, looks like the side of the belt dug into the blade. I got the blade down to 0.0125" BTE. Then I sharpened the edge on the Norton Economy, using both the Coarse and Fine sides. The burr was difficult to get rid of, but the edge finally got very sharp. I really like the Norton Economy SiC.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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