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The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection

Posted by me2 
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 20, 2014 12:17PM
Can anyone explain why this is a good idea? Wako attempts to explain, but I think his logic and my logic don't meet when it comes to this video.
Wako video half convex edge half v edge
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 20, 2014 12:21PM
I just thought maybe that post I just made should go into the "Things that are ok" since there isn't anything wrong with the sharpening, I just don't understand why he thinks it is sharper than a normal edge.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 20, 2014 01:50PM
What is the problem specifically, he says/does a lot in that video.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 20, 2014 02:11PM
Well the video description is interesting:

Quote
Wako
Stropping makes the apex dull chance by chance. So we need to reset it on a hard plane once in a while. To do that I need Shapton 1000, 2000, and Chosera 3000 almost definitely. Those ceramic stones cut extremely fast and save our time and energy.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 20, 2014 07:16PM
He says, as usual, something about Bark River and micro-chipping, something about a convex grind not being right, and that Bark River Black Compound creates a convex apex, and he doesn't want a Black Compound apex, so he sharpens one side convex with 1000 grit and 2000 grit, then sharpens the other side a v-grind with the 3000, and says its a superior edge thats sharper. I'll go back and watch it but it is hard to follow what he is doing and matching it with what he is saying.

Ok, I watched the video again for the third or fourth time. It seems he is not happy with the knife grind, and attemps to make a "convex/v asymetrical grind" for backstraps when butchering game. So he changes the apex of the knife. He says the BR Black Compound make an edge convex, BR White Compound won't, and he sharpens the v-side with the 1000 grit and 2000 grit, and the convex side with only the 3000 grit, after stating he needs the 2000 grit as a bridge between the 1000 grit and the 3000 grit. The whole thing just doesn't make sense. I think he needs more knife sharpening friends and less fans. In the comments, people where saying how amazing it was.

I don't think he said anything about micro-chipping, at least I didn't hear it that last time I watched it, but I am pretty numb to it by now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2014 08:02PM by jasonstone20.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 20, 2014 08:10PM
The ironic thing is that when he first started talking about chipping a number of people told him he was causing it by the way he was stropping. At least he realizes that is partially a problem. The next step is to go from this :

"Stropping makes the apex dull chance by chance. So we need to reset it on a hard plane once in a while. To do that I need Shapton 1000, 2000, and Chosera 3000 almost definitely. Those ceramic stones cut extremely fast and save our time and energy."

to this :

"Stropping makes the apex dull chance by chance. So we need to sharpen properly on stones instead. "

In regards to asymmetric bevels, they are useful in some cutting. For example planes and chisels are asymmetric bevels , just think about why you would not want a symmetric bevel on a chisel to understand the basic differences.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 20, 2014 08:23PM
He said something to that effect about the asymetrical bevel, I was just thinking his main compliant is actually how the blade is ground, and the results he wants could be gotten by changing the grind on the blade, not just making one bevel convex and the other a normal v grind, which he says is a natural convex, I guess because it's freehand sharpening.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 20, 2014 10:32PM
I guess this is a follow up video to the other apex-reset, and this one is a lot clearer about what he is doing and what he is trying to accomplish. I like his videos, just I am not sure what on the world he is doing or why he is doing it sometimes!
Wako-Apex reset II
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 21, 2014 08:58AM
I can't decide whether or not this is brilliant or dull. I don'r obsess about angles, personally, when sharpening.
Flashlight Knife Sharpening
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 23, 2014 05:15PM
I don't think this guy really tried to cut the paper after using the chefchoice sharpener. Are my eyes deceiving me? Plus all he is selling is a belt grinder and calling it a home knife sharpener. Can you imagine one of these in the kitchen and the wife sharpening her paring or kitchen knife on it? This almost seems like a bad joke.
Worlds best knife sharpener
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 23, 2014 05:38PM
I hate that they can censor comments on videos. Someone needs to reupload that video so people can comment on it.

Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 23, 2014 06:07PM
It is trivial to mirror a video, however if the owner wants to they can make a CR claim and have your account yanked. The most sensible way is to simply set up some kind of blog and make each post link to a YT video that is censor happy. This way you don't have to handle the traffic load of the video and just the text feed. At the end of the day though, ask yourself, is commenting on a video that maybe 10 people will see next year really the best use of your comment time.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 23, 2014 07:20PM
Its not the other commentors I want to reach its the owner of the video I want to complain to.

Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 23, 2014 07:38PM
I spent years in those kinds of conversations with the Hossom's, Striders, and Medfords of the industry. It took a very long time before I realized that it made absolutely no sense to try to explain something to someone who had no desire to learn when there were lots of people who wanted to know.

The chance of you convincing that guy he is wrong is about the same as my chance of convincing The Mastiff (Spyderco's forum) that high carbide steels don't have more "bite" because of the carbides which increase the cutting ability. He continues to repeat this any time anyone mentions steels/sharpening and it is simply false. All he is seeing is because since they are low grindability he doesn't end up polishing them fully as compared to the simple steels which polish much faster. I noted that to him before, suggested a simple way he could verify it but he doesn't care about experiments which would allow him to learn something because he wants to believe what he thinks he "knows".

But its your life man, I likely would not have believed anyone who typed that paragraph at me 20 years ago either. But surely all I would have to do, I would say, is just make a rational argument and then they would know and then they would stop misinforming people. No, they would not because they are not rational people. And that is actually the best case scenario, the worse case is that a lot of them actually want to misinform people as well for various reasons.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 24, 2014 03:41PM
This video has a strange deburring technique and a comment that ' you don't want to get you knife to sharp, because you want be able to use it'. Go figure.
Norton Waterstone Sharpening



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2014 03:43PM by jasonstone20.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 24, 2014 04:09PM
He basically skips grits too fast, ends up with an ultra-high polished edge (8000 Norton) which can't slice paper well and has to micro-bevel with a DMT stone to set the apex.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 24, 2014 04:44PM
Quote
CliffStamp
I spent years in those kinds of conversations with the Hossom's, Striders, and Medfords of the industry. It took a very long time before I realized that it made absolutely no sense to try to explain something to someone who had no desire to learn when there were lots of people who wanted to know.

The chance of you convincing that guy he is wrong is about the same as my chance of convincing The Mastiff (Spyderco's forum) that high carbide steels don't have more "bite" because of the carbides which increase the cutting ability. He continues to repeat this any time anyone mentions steels/sharpening and it is simply false. All he is seeing is because since they are low grindability he doesn't end up polishing them fully as compared to the simple steels which polish much faster. I noted that to him before, suggested a simple way he could verify it but he doesn't care about experiments which would allow him to learn something because he wants to believe what he thinks he "knows".

But its your life man, I likely would not have believed anyone who typed that paragraph at me 20 years ago either. But surely all I would have to do, I would say, is just make a rational argument and then they would know and then they would stop misinforming people. No, they would not because they are not rational people. And that is actually the best case scenario, the worse case is that a lot of them actually want to misinform people as well for various reasons.

I don't want to convince them of anything, I just hate that it is easier to hide from my criticism on the internet than it is in real life.

Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 24, 2014 10:13PM
This is even worse, it is a five part video series, you will see the other videos on his channel, where he sharpens a dull butterknife to sharp, but starts on the Norton Waterstones and finishes with the DMT Diamonds. Go figure. Of course don't miss the bushcrafters obligation to watch and comment on Dual Survival!
Butter knife Sharpening
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 24, 2014 11:37PM
Quote
Old Spice
I don't want to convince them of anything, I just hate that it is easier to hide from my criticism on the internet than it is in real life.

I can't wait to see how crotchety you become when you are old. This is a compliment by the way.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 25, 2014 12:54AM
Quote
Chum
Quote
Old Spice
I don't want to convince them of anything, I just hate that it is easier to hide from my criticism on the internet than it is in real life.

I can't wait to see how crotchety you become when you are old. This is a compliment by the way.

I know its gonna be amazing, like Andy Rooney crossed with Ernest Borgnine.

Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 25, 2014 06:05AM
Quote
Old Spice


I don't want to convince them of anything, I just hate that it is easier to hide from my criticism on the internet than it is in real life.

That is why those people tend to love the internet.

The interesting thing about fantasy is that at some level you have to want to come out of it, if you don't you won't. For example : [www.spyderco.com] . Another person asked about UHCS which Roselli is using now which is similar to W1 and Japanese White steel, a fairly pure very high carbon steel (1.5+% carbon). Jim makes the same argument about lack of carbides. Multiple people have pointed out the problems in his argument, including metallurgical references and it makes no difference, he just ignores everything. In this cases I corrected the statement he made about carbides as he doesn't understand what they are as 1.5% carbon steels are full of carbide, but as for the rest here is all that will happen. If I correct him then he will turn to insults and start talking about agendas and how science isn't necessary and you can't trust metallurgical data because it is biased. If more than one person comes in to oppose him then he will leave and wait until they go and then continue the same argument in another thread. The misinformation will only stop when Sal speaks to Jim and requires him to stop with the ad hominem and logical fallacies.

At times I will engage so I don't truly follow the advice I am trying to give because I just can't stand to see open lies being unchallenged.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 25, 2014 08:01AM
I just read the spyderco post. I really haven't researched metallurgy, so I don't involve myself with these discussions, I read as much as I can understand, but I don't feel an urge to go look up what I don't understand, so I haven't really progressed in my learning of metallurgy. It always fascinates me how some people can talk about what they don't know,or now very little, and then when someone explains in-depth or shows them they made an error, they get emotional. You can't learn that way. You just get stuck misunderstanding things. If it was music or art, everyone can have opinion if they like something or not, but to break down music or art into styles, eras, techniques, you need to know what you are talking about.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 25, 2014 08:25AM
Quote
jasonstone20

....
If it was music or art, everyone can have opinion if they like something or not, but to break down music or art into styles, eras, techniques, you need to know what you are talking about.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

It isn't a trivial issue, in many cases the people don't know but often they simply will not admit they are wrong as they have too much invested in them being right. Note in the above when I correct Jim on basic metallurgy he just ignores it and makes another nonsensical statement which again ignores basic metallurgy.

Iron carbide is much harder than even full hard martensite (66/67 HRC). Iron carbide is so hard it is even harder than Novaculite which is what is what Arkansas sharpened stones are made from. To argue that you can just ignore all of the iron carbide in White steel because only alloy carbide matters in knives is well just silly and ignorant of basic metallurgy.

If you sharpen a knife with that kind of steel the carbides in it will not wear significantly when cutting most materials (ropes, cardboard, etc.) when compared to the steel around it. They can't because the steel will wear away around it and the carbide will just come out or the steel will fracture around the carbide.

If they were replaced with vanadium carbide it would make almost no difference.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 25, 2014 09:15AM
I'm sorry but can't a 1.5% carbon steel still have a relatively (given its percentage or carbon) small amount of carbides depending on hardening, and other alloys in the steel, to ensure as much carbon goes in the matrix instead of forming carbides as possible?

_______________
Coffee and Blood
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 25, 2014 09:49AM
Quote
Shurdi3
...can't a 1.5% carbon steel still have a relatively (given its percentage or carbon) small amount of carbides depending on hardening, and other alloys in the steel, to ensure as much carbon goes in the matrix instead of forming carbides as possible?

It only takes about 0.6% carbon to have full martensite hardness (66+ HRC) :



In general you don't want to exceed 0.6% carbon in solution, because above 0.6% carbon then very bad things start to happen :

-the aus-grain starts to grow as you dissolve more primary carbide
-martensite starts to form as plate not lathe and plate is much more brittle
-the Mf point drops which causes retained austenite to increase

You thus end up with a steel which is softer, more brittle and has less wear resistance and is generally not very froody at all.

In short, yes, if you wanted to you could dissolve all of the carbide in a 1.5% carbon steel, you could do it in any steel but you really would not want to because the result would be pretty horrible if you did[*].

--

[*] Practically this is next to impossible with niobium because it requires excessive temperatures, and even vanadium carbide is difficult to dissolve fully, but it could be done and is done in the original melt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2014 09:50AM by CliffStamp.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 25, 2014 09:54AM
See, I read the metalurgy stuff and one of two things happen: I either drift of, and don't finish what I'm reading, or: I finish reading and my head hurts. winking smiley
me2
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 25, 2014 09:17PM
Quote
CliffStamp
-martensite starts to form as plate not lathe and plate is much more brittle

Just to be a PITA, I was wondering about this. I was digging through some stuff a while back and found some information that martensite shape/form is determined, or at least heavily influenced, by the temperature at which it forms. Now this does not apply to plain carbon and low alloy steels, but in high alloy steels where the Mf is already pushed down by other factors, I think plate martensite may be what you get, no matter how little carbon is in solution, assuming enough for a cutting tool in the first place. The research I read was not certain about this notion, but it was published, though it was a while ago.

With regard to the 1.5% steel and ultra-high carbon steel label, I see it as a marketing ploy. Steels have so much carbon now that the old guidelines are almost unknown. To use a Cliff example, what would you call the 2% + steels? RUHCS-NR (really ultra-high carbon steels - no, really)
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 26, 2014 09:38AM
Quote
me2

With regard to the 1.5% steel and ultra-high carbon steel label, I see it as a marketing ploy.

Ultra-High carbon is used by AISI to describe steels above high carbon ~1%, similar to mid and low carbon. In use there is a pretty easy distinction between steels which have :

-0.3% carbon
-0.6% carbon
-1% carbon

Now yes it is influenced by alloy content, but just looking at the carbon percentages with micro-alloys, most people would readily be able to tell which knife is which even if they were not labeled.

Above that it gets fuzzy because the knife doesn't get harder/stronger, it just gets more wear resistance. I am certain I could pick out a 1030 blade from a 1060 blade vs 1095 blade very quickly.

But I would want a lot of material to pick out a high carbon 1095 blade from a ulra-high carbon 1.5% one.

--

Is it marketing, sure, just like it is to say a blade is stainless, or tool steel, or HSS, but they do have meanings. But there is a real concern though with the growing alloy content as there are steels now with 2-3% carbon so what do you call that as Chris noted if White #1 is ultra-high carbon.

Practically, I don't think the separation is as meaningful as there is between low-mid-high carbon so it is kind of a moot point. I would classify all of those steels as UHC .
RFL
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 26, 2014 03:20PM
Lath martensite not lathE martensite.

In older books (pre 1950) I have seen lathe used instead of lath (basket weave, lattice), but not in anything more modern. Maybe, lathe is still common spelling in Europe?

As far as I know, lath (lattice structure) rhymes with bath, and lathe (the machine) rhymes with bathe.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
November 26, 2014 03:28PM
It is common in both forms, often times it is spelled both ways in the same paper, ref : [www.mse.ncsu.edu] .
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