Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection

Posted by me2 
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 19, 2015 02:56PM
Jason,

I think that is the key point. If the stone isn't going to develop a slurry with water then it isn't going to with oil. The surface of the stone is going to load as the metal is removed as there isn't any oil there to float it off.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 19, 2015 08:10PM
Cliff,
That makes sense. The real difference is that spot is harder to clean.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 19, 2015 08:18PM
Yeah but that is because you are trying to clean an oil based issue with water.

--

I am actually having second thoughts about that small King stone. In the above I didn't see any real reason to use it with oil over water. However I have noted a pretty large one which is kind of obvious - oil doesn't dry out. If I use that stone and let it stand for even an hour outside of water it has to be soaked again before use. However I used it several hours later with just a drop of oil and it was perfectly fine. I think I am going to end up oiling all of the stones I have in small sections like that because of how it makes them so quick/easy to use.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 19, 2015 10:05PM
That could be, it came right off when I used a little dish soap.
Eli
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 19, 2015 11:52PM
Quote
CliffStamp
If I use that stone and let it stand for even an hour outside of water it has to be soaked again before use. However I used it several hours later with just a drop of oil and it was perfectly fine. I think I am going to end up oiling all of the stones I have in small sections like that because of how it makes them so quick/easy to use.

It makes sense for somebody with winter and and outside shop. I am curious of the long term feedback.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 20, 2015 02:26AM
How will react, behave a water stone if it is soaked with Kerosene /the most common old fashioned way of lubricating natural local sandstones and belgian coticule here in Bulgaria/...
... almost every old carpenter I know use its stones with several drops of Kerosene before sharpening his chisels...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life is GOOD!

[www.youtube.com]
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 20, 2015 07:15AM
Cliff, have you ever tried sealing the sides of the waterstone? Some of the straight razor guys do that with the Japanese natual stone. Also, couldn't you just use a tub and keep the stones soaked while using them?
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 20, 2015 08:04AM
I don't like to use sealers as I like to keep one side as a reference.

I have a lot of stones, really as in dozens. Keeping them all soaked for long periods of time is problematic especially when you are using them for minor work. For example the last time I used that small King I just wanted to do about 30 seconds work to clean up the edge on a cleaver. It might be a 1-2 weeks before I use that again. It is far easier to just use a drop of oil on it than soak it for all that time.

The thing for me is that I really don't have any issues with oil. The main one that people has is the mess which isn't a consideration for me, I just look at the effect of grinding, wear, cutting speed, etc. .
Eli
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 20, 2015 09:39AM
The main reason Japanese/Kyoto type finishing stones are sealed is that the slightly softer ones can sometimes crack/disintegrate, especially with existing fault lines. Kyoto stones have deposition and cleavage planes that typically are parallel to the honing surface. (At least that is how most stones are cut, but that is a separate topic.) Cleavage helps propagate damage. The sealing doesn't completely prevent separation, but is supposed to make it less likely by giving the stone an exoskeleton. Sealing a very porous sandstone does work as suggested - it creates a bath tub. For a Kyoto type stone of hardness 3 or harder as used by the razor crowd the bathtub effect can be ignored as the stone never fills up with water in amateur use. In any case, I don't see a functional negative in sealing. But make sure to get an appropriately thick lacquer, as otherwise the stone may decide to ingest the sealant, which changes the stone's character.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 20, 2015 09:45AM
I can understand that. My oilstones get a lot more use, just because I can grab it and use it right away, no flatting, soaking, ect. Funny how a common complaint with oilstones is mess, when for me waterstones are easily more messy.

When I was suggesting sealing the stone, I meant just the sides of the stone, and with the soaking, I was suggesting just taking the stones you know you are going to use or are using and soaking them for the day then putting them away. This can't always be done however.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 21, 2015 06:00PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Funny how a common complaint with oilstones is mess, when for me waterstones are easily more messy.
smiling smiley I've a little experience with using water for lube and oil for lube
oil is more sticky and harder to clean than water
wet hands versus greasy oily hands
but I'd also consider both very very messy,
but I'm only relying on a towel to contain the mess (indoors, with carpet, upholstery real close),
i'm sure if I switched to a tray/plate ... my opinion would change in general

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
April 21, 2015 08:53PM
For using oilstones, I have a plastic tray and rag dedicated to just oil use, and for cleanup I use newspaper. It's the waterstones themselves I find messy, especially the muddy ones.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
May 06, 2015 08:41AM
Correction:
The Norton 4k side of the 4k/8k doesn't polish, and leaves a dull finish.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
May 10, 2015 10:42AM
[www.youtube.com]

20+ minutes sharpening progression

soft lansky arkansas
hard lansky arkansas
naniwa
1000
3000
8000
stropping with CrOx compound

what are the problems in the video in your opinion?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life is GOOD!

[www.youtube.com]
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
May 10, 2015 11:00AM
First it is in Russian and I don't speak Russian.
Se on why would you use the hard black Arkansas as a second step nit the last r close to it.

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
May 10, 2015 12:36PM
Mark-
If you mix up the rating systems for the Arkansas stones with the JIS of the waterstones, especially if the black Arkansas is thought to be a regular 'Hard' and not 'True Hard', it would fit right in with the progression, by thinking that the Soft Arkansas is 600, which on one chart it is, and the Hard Arkansas at 800, when if you use the JIS, the Soft Arkansas is roughly 800-1.2k, and the Hard Arkansas 2-4k, if True Hard 6-12k. Also, just estimates, because they are natural stones. Just my first thoughts on the subject, I could easily be wrong.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 15, 2015 03:23PM
In the previous page Cliff commented about using water stones with oil

so a picture from one of bulgarian bushcraft forums:




what happens when using cheap chinese soft water stone with petroleum based oil and not cleaning it after

despite the stone has some dishing / a short lapping easy can clean it up...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life is GOOD!

[www.youtube.com]
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 06:48PM
▶ Knife Sharpening - by rustogilly



a former butcher, shows a neat way to provide pressure, use the edge of your off hand , saves your fingertips smiling smiley
says you work the stone for 10min
and then to use a grooved steel with light pressure, then a smooth steel
steeling for 5-10min ... total time per knife 20-25min
says in home use edge lasts 6 months, at the abattoir in the boning room, lasts 8 hours

he started the video by explaining you might see your local butcher slapping the steel fast which is "bad hairdo"
but then steels the knife after sharpening on a stone and for a long time ...
from the internets I've learned you're supposed to steel for a few seconds at most, but not straight off the stone, after use



found it by visiting sharpen sharpener sharpening

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 06:54PM
It is really common for a lot of those guys to steel the knives. It is the way fisherman do it here as well. The stone is used to basically remove any damage and over grind to a heavy burr. The butchers steels are then used to put on a micro-bevel. He takes it one step further and uses a very fine steel to burnish the edge.

I think that 5-10 minutes had to refer to the time on both steels and it looked to me like a coarse estimate. I really doubt he spends even five minutes on it as that would be literally hundreds of passes. If you ask most people about times they will give you odd answers because they don't actually time anything and 5-10 minutes can come out as a default.

It is like if you ask someone how much force they press on the knife, few people measure it and thus they likely will just pick a random number.
DK
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 07:42PM


it looked to me like he was using a stropping motion with the stones mostly and the demonstration of the knife cutting newsprint didn't seem like it was all that sharp. would like to get one of these systems though.

"knives save lives" on youtube
all i want for christmas is more arm hair -DK-
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 07:59PM
Cliff-
I was wondering about the steeling as a micro-bevel, if I remember right Juranitch in his book liked to finish will a smooth steel to provide a super fine edge. What is your opinion on this technique? I have seen the microscope shots of this and it seems to smooth out and grit pattern that is left from sharpening, is this only useful for meat cutting, where he developed his methods for sharpening? How much does burnishing, even a small amount, affect ede retention?
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 08:12PM
Quote
DK


it looked to me like he was using a stropping motion with the stones mostly and the demonstration of the knife cutting newsprint didn't seem like it was all that sharp. would like to get one of these systems though.
looks like a burr, a $699 dollar burr ... wow

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 09:01PM
Quote
jasonstone20

... if I remember right Juranitch in his book liked to finish will a smooth steel to provide a super fine edge. What is your opinion on this technique? I have seen the microscope shots of this and it seems to smooth out and grit pattern that is left from sharpening, is this only useful for meat cutting, where he developed his methods for sharpening? How much does burnishing, even a small amount, affect ede retention?

These are some interesting questions. The first thing to realize is that his stones, even the fine one are fairly coarse. I have not used one, but have asked a few who do and the fine one isn't a polishing stone. Consider for example the Fine India is called a Fine stone but would readily be polished by a burnishing rod. The question I would ask is why not used a finer stone? However the thing to realize is the direct application as you noted. Meat cutters use those rods, Juranitch even developed multiple specific tools for them. I have used the Mousetrap and still own the folding smooth rod set which is really nice for that application as it can be set at any angle and used like a Sharpmaker.

He notes clearly that you can over steel an edge and weaken it through fatigue, though he doesn't use the term. What you have to do to get optimal results from a burnishing rod is go light, use lots of passes and sneak up on the apex. With some experience and skill you learn how many passes to take and if you use the right force you can get decent edge retention for a polished edge. However, and this is a big however, meat cutters are not likely to care at all about edge retention because it is so absolutely trivial to give the knife a few passes on the rod. Just think what is a guy most likely to do :

-spend five seconds every 10-15 minutes
-spend 1-2 minutes carefully steeling to last 15-30 minutes

In many cases it might not even be yours knives that you are using. I spoke to a few guys who work in the meat departments locally and there are just a wack of knives and they all just use them. In that case how much care are you going to take.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 09:26PM
Quote
ShaperAndMower

looks like a burr

As silly as it sounds, some people can't cut paper well. There was a video where John Davis sharpened a knife, demonstrated the sharpness and then sent it to the owner. The guy gets the knife and struggles to even cut thicker paper than what John was cutting.

It is similar to how you see a guy take a knife and hit a 2x4 about 100 times and make little progress. Give the same guy one of Joe's choppers and he won't do much better.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 11:22PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
ShaperAndMower

looks like a burr

As silly as it sounds, some people can't cut paper well. There was a video where John Davis sharpened a knife, demonstrated the sharpness and then sent it to the owner. The guy gets the knife and struggles to even cut thicker paper than what John was cutting.

It is similar to how you see a guy take a knife and hit a 2x4 about 100 times and make little progress. Give the same guy one of Joe's choppers and he won't do much better.

This a a subject that doesn't get much discussion. Almost all of the sharpening tests or 'tricks' have a little touch of technique that you have to use, otherwise it doesn't matter really how sharp your knife is, it won't 'do' the 'trick'. The otherside if that is with enough practice and a putting a little 'English' on the knife you can get it to pass some of these test without a optimum edge on the blade. For example, if you watch Dean-O's early sharpening videos, he struggles with cutting paper cross grained, and now he does it with ease. Now it could be he improved his touch on the stones, but he still uses the same good equipment and sharpening style, so most likely it is a combination off both, but I am just guessing, as it is hard to judge sometimes through YouTube video's, and I like Dean-O, so I am biased.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 11:25PM
What about using "sharpening steel" for blades with micro bevels - we do some light pps with the edge angle and then some with the micro bevel angle or we just "hone" / burnish the micro bevel.
I am asking because I am new in the world of "sharpening steels" / "honing steels" / burnishing rods and seems they are very user friendly and easier to learn how to use and gives somewhat decent results when used correctly - so I can show a few clips to some of my friends and give them a reasonably priced victorinox or f.dick "sharpening steel" and they can have some kind of sharp knives for longer before I must sharpen them smiling bouncing smiley

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life is GOOD!

[www.youtube.com]
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 11:39PM
I have found that steeling takes a very light touch and just a few passes, kind if like the same idea with minimal stropping. You can kill an edge with either one if you aren't careful.
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 23, 2015 11:56PM
I am thinking no need of brute force because especially with round rods the contact area is small and the pressure is high enough to have some plastic deformation even using light passes...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life is GOOD!

[www.youtube.com]
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 24, 2015 12:09AM
Stefan_Wolf-
Exactly! Also there is the steels with ridges and then just the plain rods, I have two that have both made by Forchtner
Re: The "Why did you think that was ok" Sharpening Video Collection
June 24, 2015 01:50AM
Here is an example of a sharpeness test, and to this knife sharpener, this is the ultimate in sharpness.
[youtu.be]
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login