Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile

Advanced

Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos

Posted by CliffStamp 
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
March 31, 2015 01:20PM
Quote
jasonstone20

One, that he doesn't spend a lot of time sharpening, he makes it quick, and two, his burr minimization and de-burring
seem almost too quick.

The sharpness he demonstrates is easily achieved with the first stone, it is a very low level of sharpness, that could easily be achieved off a King 1000 with no care to deburr at all. Now a point could be made for practical sharpening there is no need to get an edge which push cuts newsprint, and I would agree with that. However talking about ultra-high grit stones and stropping blocks and demonstrating the sharpness which could be achieved with a coarse India is kind of pointless.

What he does also is likely to cause frustration as much as anything for someone trying to sharpen on a knife which doesn't have a perfectly even bevel to start with.It is one of those video's where the knife is near perfect to start and the process is therefore deceptively simple. it is like all the ABS video's where all they are doing is applying a micro-bevel as the knife was ground on a belt sander to an apex. They don't often clarify this though and the chance for misinformation is fairly high.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
April 02, 2015 10:38AM
This is another video along the lines if just getting the edge just sharp enough to cut without spending a lot of time sharpening:How to Sharpen Kitchen Knives:

I really don't know what to make if this video, it has some things I agree with and that will work well, and some things that don't.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
April 02, 2015 11:10AM
The problem is that he exaggerates the level of work required to produce a shaving sharp edge, there is no reason that can't be achieved off of the 400 grit side of the Ez-Lap. It certainly does not need ultra high grit japanese stones and stropping. Now I would not argue that you don't need to achieve a shaving sharp edge to slice a tomato, but it isn't as if it is that difficult.

The big problem I have with this video, which is the same mistake a lot of videos make, is that they don't clearly note that often what they are doing is applying a microbevel or the knife wasn't dull to start with. Take a few passes, micro-bevel is set. Then someone takes a knife and tried to grind the edge on a new knife where the edge angle changes all along the edge and they get frustrated when after 10 minutes there is no burr and nothing is happening. They are trying 10-12 degrees like he said but nothing is happening. Of course this is just grinding the shoulder of the edge.

I do find it odd that someone will say you have to take a burr off because if you don't it will lead to a loss of edge retention and then they take it off by cutting into a piece of hard wood to smash it back into the apex. How does that make any sense at all. If the burr is going to reduce edge retention in use by snapping off and damaging the edge prematurely then how is that solved by making it happen immediately with a much more violent cutting action as wood is far harder and more abrasive than a tomato.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
April 04, 2015 01:59PM
Just as an example, a shaving edge off a 36 grit dressing stone :



Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
April 05, 2015 03:48PM
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
April 09, 2015 11:18AM
Cliff-
Again, I agree with your assessment. The two reasons I posted the last two videos was because, although I don't advocate it, it is legitimate way to sharpen, and also it does need to be pointed out that if the blade isn't already properly shaped and the apex mostly fully formed, these techniques won't work, and for beginners this isn't a good thing.

I like the 36-grit sharpening video! Very well done. I do think this is an excellent way for someone who is learning to sharpen to use, as even the first step of just getting the edge to no longer reflect light is actually sharper than most 'working' edges, and is a decent level of sharpness when compared to a knife that won't slice copy paper, and it is only one simple step to achieving a true decent level if sharpness, with both push cutting and slicing ability.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
April 19, 2015 07:07PM
a cook/chef and his buddy introduce sharpening with 02h21m28s of non stop talking in russian... excelent 3d paper conceptualization of a bluting/burr ... edge reflection is presented ... amusing animations
▶ Sharpening kitchen knives on water stones and grinding systems
▶ Заточка кухонных ножей на водных камнях и в заточных системах
00:27:58 t=1678 edge rolling edge damage 3d folded paper model chips
00:35:35 t=2135 slicing with two fingers
00:36:44 t=2204 then cartoon about happy for cheap knives (under 10 cents)
00:50:17 t=3017 lapping water stone on sandpaper
00:50:17 t=3017 japanese unguided/guided sharpening
01:04:45 t=3885 knife closeups in some kind of browser (borrowed pics?)
01:05:52 t=3952 knife reflecting reflection edge sharp knife dull knife
01:07:02 t=4022 magnify, look for reflection
01:09:24 t=4164 THIS IS HOW YOU 3d edge apex pics drawing
01:12:25 t=4345 3d foldedr paper apex burr
01:16:08 t=4568 MICROBEVEL TALK
01:19:55 t=4795 hahaha tear newspaper instead of slice, shocked face, my god :OOOO
01:20:28 t=4828 cartoon SWEATING BULLETS WHILE PERFORMING RECIPROCATING MOTION WITH HAND smiling smiley its just edge-pro sharpener
01:39:11 t=5951 electric sharpener
01:44:17 t=6257 spyderco sharpmaker
01:50:26 t=6626 chef rods/steels/

one comment complains 1.5 hours of this chatter is spam/advertising ... but the burr demo is gold smiling smiley

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
May 07, 2015 06:30PM
This is interesting as he makes the argument to micro-bevel a Mora :





I am not exactly in agreement with the argument about how the micro-bevel separates material.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
May 07, 2015 06:56PM
If you micro bevel a mora and never touch the edge bevel it will thicken really fast.

www.theflatearthsociety.org

BIGFOOT FINDS YOU, YOU DON'T FIND BIGFOOT!



IT IS THE E-NEP THROWING BROTHERHOOD
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
May 07, 2015 07:22PM
Cliff-
Did you get clarification from what he meant by shoulders? I didn't really understand what he meant either, I thought he was talking about the shoulder of the primary grind to the single bevel transition, and I also didn't fully understand the comparisons to the impact chisle bits.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
May 07, 2015 07:27PM
Ok, I just went back and looked at the comments, he was talking about the shoulder between the micro-bevel and the bevel. Kyley has a great video series where he does a CAD presentation with microscope pictures about convex bevels and the benifits of applying a micro-bevel.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
May 07, 2015 08:03PM
Quote
Mark a
If you micro bevel a mora and never touch the edge bevel it will thicken really fast.

Mark, in the absolute sense, the edge thickens in proportion to the primary grind angle so a Mora will thicken 2-3 times as fast as a flat ground knife, aside from one of the crazy 15 dps modern versions people are making which is 4-5 times as fast.

However in a practical sense, take a look at those knives being used, especially the ones described as beaters/heavy-users. How much wear do you see on the knife, how often has it been sharpened?

I have seen people talk about knives seeing "extensive" and "heavy" work for a year+ and the picture could be an as-boxed knife.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
July 19, 2015 12:57PM
Just for reference, two YouTube videos about deburring on the stone, done by John from JKI.
Micro-Bevels
Stropping on the stone
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
July 19, 2015 02:19PM
I like this persons video's, they are nice and long, which reminds me what burr-sharpening with multiple progressions is like, very long and time consuming.
Anyway, in this video, he uses his traveling sharpening kit, which utilizes small hones (yeah!), specifically some DMT Card Sharps and a small DLT Strop.
10" Damaged Kitchen Knife



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2015 02:20PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
July 19, 2015 02:27PM
He has decent video's, my problem with him is that he doesn't address questions/comments .
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
July 20, 2015 12:12PM
Cliff-
In his comment section if YouTube? I hadn't noticed. He does have a few videos of him taking and answering questions, I guess you could always try to email or call, I am not sure how open he is to communicating. This is attached to his business, and some people have trouble separating the two. Unfortunately, I have seen a lot of the Knife Industry like that.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
July 22, 2015 08:40AM
The ol' Grind'n Buff:
Factory Knife Sharpening
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
November 08, 2015 07:53PM
Quote
CliffStamp
As a different sort of viewpoint on sharpening :





His approach is very simple, practical and this is a guy who works with his knives so there is some merit there in functional performance. Now if you look at the sharpness he achieves, then many here may likely claim it isn't actually very sharp compared to what can be obtained. However from a practical perspective - is this really significant.

Take a look at the knives he notes are literally a couple of decades old and see how little wear they show because of the heavy/frequent use of a steel which is really minimizing metal loss through sharpening. These are all very tough/ductile steels, 5Cr13 is a common stainless and it is nearly an ideal material for that type of use.

I just tried the combination between 120/220 grit el cheapo chinese SiC stone and regular cut sharpening steel - I can understand why so many people use it - a couple of minutes on the stone, and a dozen strokes on the steel give the impression of pretty sharp blade - how long will last is another question...
I am wondering what will be the result with an fine cut or polished steel - will a regular SS kitchen knife feel as sharp as knife sharpen with 1k king or soft arkansa stone ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life is GOOD!

[www.youtube.com]
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
November 08, 2015 09:38PM
It might be curious to note if there is any difference in which knife cuts better, or cuts longer with the different steels.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
November 09, 2015 08:28PM
SW, Cliff-
I have a few of these finishes on knives going on now, a few in the kitchen, a coarse edge (<325#) and then steeled. I think that Murray Carter's stropping on newspaper placed over a stone does something similar, as I have noticed a big enough difference when using a resin bond synthetic stone, as the ones I have are not ideal for apexing(it can be done, it is just a lot more work than is necessary).

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 11, 2015 04:17AM




Simple as it can be - is it the best way to sharpen knives - probably not / is it working - yes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life is GOOD!

[www.youtube.com]
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 11, 2015 05:47PM
Quote
stefan_wolf
How to Sharpen a Knife with Paul Sellers
Simple as it can be - is it the best way to sharpen knives - probably not / is it working - yes
thumbs up
very nice show, very disarming mellow fellow,
grandma could do that she already has a nail file


very practical guy that paul , his blog is also full of this stuff
2011/12/going-against-the-gods-myth-busting/
2012/01/sharpening-chisels-forget-weaker-micro-bevels/

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 12, 2015 07:22PM
Well, so much for the Edge Pro!

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 13, 2015 10:13AM
Quote
ShaperAndMower

very practical guy that paul

Yes, opinionated, however also severely biased and often significantly wrong. His description of convex vs compound bevels not only makes no sense at all, he just ignores other work done which clearly contradicts his perspective. As a point of comparison, look at : [www3.telus.net] for micro-bevels.

There is no need to use jigs for micro-bevels, they just make the process faster and more efficient. There is also no sense at all to say something like convex bevels hold their edges longer than compound edges. The angles, the transitions points, etc. this is what sets the performance, not if one is curved vs compound/flat.
me2
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 13, 2015 07:02PM
While I'm with Cliff on the blog entries, I will have to try the method shown in the posted video.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 13, 2015 08:39PM
I thought the same thing reading the blog entries, I read a few logical fallacies and they annoyed me. He writes as though it is from a position of authority, and yet he clearly has a few misunderstandings about what is actually going on, and I think they would really frustrate someone who is trying to learn what is going on from what he is writing.

For example, he rails against flattening your stones, as the hollowing provides a good convex edge, but he does not mention the difficulty in making sure that there is no dishing/uneveness across the stone as well as lengthwise, this could lead to crooked or smiling chisels, planes, etc. He also doesn't mention the difficulty encountered when jumping between stones; from dish to no dish or vice-versa, what angle the apex is, etc.

He does make some good points, but I think with his suspect advice about convex bevels and worn stones, his blog ends up net-negative in my opinion.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 13, 2015 08:56PM
Quote
me2
While I'm with Cliff on the blog entries, I will have to try the method shown in the posted video.

Writeup/pic can be found 2014/11/more-sharpening-knife-notes/

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 13, 2015 09:02PM
Quote
SecondCrack
I thought the same thing reading the blog entries, I read a few logical fallacies and they annoyed me. He writes as though it is from a position of authority, and yet he clearly has a few misunderstandings ...
smiling smiley authority? My sharpening levels developed through fifty years of sharpening 20-30 times in a day.
He teaches woodworking

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 13, 2015 10:28PM
I would agree that he's an authority on woodworking, but wearing shoes every day of my life does not make me an authority on shoes; I would require that he understands the thing that he is doing so much and the complexities involved (which he seems to at least partially lack) to be an authority on sharpening.

But it's all neither here nor there, as an argument from authority doesn't excuse misunderstanding.
Re: Things that are actually ok - sharpening videos
December 14, 2015 02:49AM
Quote
SecondCrack
I would agree that he's an authority on woodworking, but wearing shoes every day of my life does not make me an authority on shoes; I would require that he understands the thing that he is doing so much and the complexities involved (which he seems to at least partially lack) to be an authority on sharpening.

But it's all neither here nor there, as an argument from authority doesn't excuse misunderstanding.

It is a curious thing authority, some perspective on that, my comments after the quotes/links
Quote

Quote
https://paulsellers.com/2015/01/winter-wonder-woodworking-begins/
When a class begins, on the first hour of the first day, we walk through the processes of sharpening different tools. Inevitably, from the first questions asked, we must work through the modern-day myths and mysteries surrounding sharpening to restore sanity to an otherwise quick and simple task. Japanese stones versus oilstones and diamond powder and paste, hollow grinding and micro-bevels and so much more have become part of a confusing mass of information overload.

Saw Sharpening video - My Micro-bevel Method Works Great - Paul Sellers' Blog

Quote
https://paulsellers.com/2012/05/more-debunking-myths-and-mysteries/
I have to say that I am surprised by Asa C’s article on honing guides. I found it intolerant and biased. Some statements seem written with the intent to persuade rather than present, with the use of certain terms; for instance, in his pro-guide bias he uses terms like, “Why the honing guide beats handheld.” And “Guide—Always the right angle.” Then, when opposing the hand held he says that hand held is a “Balancing Act”, that you generally use hollow grinding on a grinding wheel and with that usual air of authority

How to Use a Honing Guide -- Learn how to use a honing guide and get your chisels and planes super-sharp with greater ease by Asa Christiana
Quote
https://paulsellers.com/2012/05/more-on-myths-and-mysteries/
A common fallacy I often come across is that the honing guide gives you the edge you cannot get freehand and that most freehand sharpeners are professional furniture makers. Most professional furniture makers are minimalist hand tool users and I worry that writers might falsely impress people that “hobbyists” cannot very quickly and readily establish the hand skills of sharpening. If it had not been for this category of woodworker, we would most likely have lost many more such very basic skills.

Notes From My Apprentice Days - Paul Sellers' Blog


He appears aware of nuances
So, it seems to me this old apprentice, old master,
is continuing the tradition,
being the master,
being the stubborn authority, source of knowledge,
simplifying/demistifying basics for his new bees,
sometimes rants in response to $system/stone snobs$,
apprenticeship isn't exactly science,
aim is to cut not to sharpen,
sharpen quick and get to working the wood smiling smiley

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login