sai
Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 06:04PM
Hi, first off I'll start with what stones I have already: Naniwa 400, King 1000/6000, Spyderco Sharpmaker + diamond rods and 2 SiC stones with 120 and 200 grit.
The problem I have with the water stones is they are all pretty much smoothed down (?) and I can't really get them rough again with sandpaper. So even the 400 stone has a very slow cutting speed.
I tried to get a few knives from about 40° down to 30° with the Spyderco diamond rods and I gave up after 1 or 2 hours. i thought this would go much faster. Am I too impatient?
Since I don't like to flatten my stones regularly, will a DMT XXC be the right choice for me? What sharpen time should I expect after I cut down an edge to remove damage and then get it sharp again?

P.S.: Can I use up AND down strokes on the Sharpmaker to quicken up getting the edge apexed?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2015 06:07PM by sai.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 06:12PM
This might sound like and odd question, but are you using the Naniwa 400 and King 1000/6000 with water or dry?
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 06:27PM
I could reset every knife I owns edge bevel down to 10 dps with almost any of those stones given 2 hours.....

Um could you give a bit more info on how exactly you are using the sharpmaker?
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 07:17PM
What knives are you speaking of, and do you have any details on the silicon carbide stones?
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 07:35PM
Quote
jasonstone20
This might sound like and odd question, but are you using the Naniwa 400 and King 1000/6000 with water or dry?

With water. Naniwa splash and go and I used to soak the King for a few minutes before starting.

Quote
TerriLiGunn
I could reset every knife I owns edge bevel down to 10 dps with almost any of those stones given 2 hours.....

Um could you give a bit more info on how exactly you are using the sharpmaker?

Alternating left/right strokes usually just downwardand very light pressure, especially with the diamond rods. I've seen a few videos from Cliff already. But they were all about touch ups iirc

Quote
CliffStamp
What knives are you speaking of, and do you have any details on the silicon carbide stones?

I'm using a few different Solingen kitchen kives from WMF and Zwilling. The SiC stones were pretty cheap but recommended from a german sharpener named Leo. He has his own website about sharpening. But they are basically so clogged up that I can't use them anymore right now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2015 07:37PM by sai.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 07:45PM
When was the last time you cleaned the diamond rods, and how do you clean them?
What kind of lubrication are you using with all of the stones including the sharpmaker?
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 07:46PM
I use the Sharpmaker dry, also the diamond rods. I clean the ceramic rods with an eraser.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 07:52PM
Quote
sai

I'm using a few different Solingen kitchen kives from WMF and Zwilling.

These are really easy to grind steels, you can likely even file them.

[quoteThe SiC stones were pretty cheap but recommended from a german sharpener named Leo. He has his own website about sharpening. But they are basically so clogged up that I can't use them anymore right now.[/quote]

That's the issue, if those stones were free cutting you should be able to set the bevels in literally five minutes or so. There are a few options to do that :

-run them through the dishwasher a few times to loosen up any grit/impacted oil
-get some very coarse silicon carbide sandpaper (as in < 100 grit)
-use a light mineral oil

If the stone is really impacted, scrub it with some oil and a very stiff brush until the oil runs clean. Now you need to recondition the surface, again use oil and with low force, just the weight of the stone, lightly scrub it on the sandpaper. It should only take 5-10 seconds, check the surface of the stone. Don't keep grinding as you will just wear the sandpaper and start polishing (wearing down) the stone again. You should also be able to just feel the difference with your finger tips when the stone is aggressive again. Now again scrub the surface until the oil runs clear.

With those stones cutting free they will set new bevels almost immediately. Just remember :

-use oil
-apply enough force so that ideally the stone is just breaking down in use

When you are finished reapply oil and blot it off until it again runs clear.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 07:52PM
Hmm, diamonds can still be clogged even with the eraser cleaning. A scrub with a stiff wire brush or nylon brush and then patting the diamond with the sticky side of duct tape and a final scrub with the brush and lots of soapy water can really clean out the diamond stones. I have had to do this a few times on my edc diamond stones.
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 09:10PM
I'll try the dishwasher first.

Just to get a reference here. How long should it take with the diamond rods? Isn't a wirebrush too hard for the diamonds? I heard they can easily be broken off if handled too rough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2015 09:11PM by sai.
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 20, 2015 09:41PM
OK, now this is amazing. I just cleaned the diamond rods up with some soap water and a brush and maybe for the second time ever I managed to get a shaving edge off these stones.
If I now get my water stones unclogged, I hope I can also finally get some good results of them.
Thanks!
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 10:25AM
Think I still want to try out one of the DMT stones. Will x-coarse do it for me or should I go for the xx-coarse? What are the Sharpmaker diamond rods compared to DMT coaorse, medium, fine?
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 03:40PM
The Sharpmaker diamond/cbn rods are ~40 microns :

- [www.spyderco.com]

This is comparable to the DMT coarse (45 microns).
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 05:05PM
Do we have info in the forum about what are the acceptable pressures using plates with diamond coating like dmt eze-lap atoma and when the pressure is too high and we can shred particles from the plate

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Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 06:20PM
I don't think I have seen any data on that, likely because it would be a very expensive experiment to perform.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 06:34PM
This and the abrasive wear thread, along with two YouTube videos I watched, one from Murray Carter, and the other Wranglestar with Ben Dale, talk about the problems with using diamonds on steels, and Cliff's latest video describing abrasives, their size and how pressure can affect how the steel behaves. I think the Murray Carter position has been settled and understood, and Ben Dale was saying that for the amount of sharpening his company does, the diamond plates don't last, and that they are not used in industry for steel removal, something about the carbides reacting with the diamonds, and the diamonds pulling out if the plate, and that AlO was almost used exclusively. Now if I remember right, Cliff's research into the abrasive use in industry showed something a little different, and my own limited experience has also seen the opposite, but I have nowhere near the experience of anyone if these three, nevermind Ken Schwartz's promotion if diamond and CBN sprays/emulsions, which leaves one in a semi-confused state.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 06:55PM
The reason they are not used in industry for steel removal is because of carbon diffusion based wear. However there is no data that this happens at the room temperature and very low pressure in hand grinding.
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 08:26PM
OK now I have the same problem all over again. I got a very cheap paring knife here and some freshly cleaned diamond rods.
I'm at over 300 strokes per side now and the edge is still reflecting light. What am I doing wrong? Too less pressure?
I could make a video if that helps anyone to judge what's going on.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 08:39PM
sai,
A few things come to mind-
-You aren't hitting the edge bevel to the apex, and are just above or on or near the shoulder of the bevel, or
-You have overground, creating a burr, which can also reflect light.

I would suggest stopping and checking by a cutting test along with a visual inspection, along with a physical checking for a burr by touch, every 1-2 min or 50-100 passes.
Do you have any sort of magnifying loupe or similar?
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 08:43PM
Actually I'm hitting the shoulder because the angle is probably everything between 30° and 45°, so I'm trying to get the whole edge to a clean 30°. But the shoulder looks just like 150 strokes before. Yes there is the scratch pattern from the diamonds, but there's no metal removed anymore. (or VERY little)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2015 08:43PM by sai.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 09:47PM
How much force are you using? How long have you had the diamond rods?
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 09:56PM
Well how to quantify the force I use? I started with barely any force and stepped it up two times. Diamond rods are about a year old now. Used them on 10 knives all in all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2015 09:57PM by sai.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 10:05PM
You can just put the Sharpmaker on a scale.

The amount of metal which is removed will depend on :

-the force applied
-the grit of the abrasive
-the hardness of the steel (ignoring abrasive/carbide interactions)

If you apply very light force, even with a coarse abrasive on an easy to grind steel then you won't remove significant amounts of metal abrasive.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2015 02:07AM by CliffStamp.
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 21, 2015 10:54PM
Quote
CliffStamp
If you apply very light force, even with a coarse abrasive on an easy to grind steel then you won't remove significant amounts of abrasive.

I guess the last "abrasive" should be metal?

P.S.: I tried measuring the force. About 100 gram at max I'd say.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2015 12:08AM by sai.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 22, 2015 02:18AM
I think that is too low for the abrasive to actually bite full depth, in fact I am almost positive it is based on some test scratches I just did.

It is one of the problems with very coarse abrasives that you have to use more force on them to make them bite deep and on the really coarse abrasives it isn't even possible. Take a 36 grit stone and you won't be able to make it cut full depth unless you have radioactive spider blood.

However here is the tricky part, the more force you apply the more likely you are to damage the stone and as far as I know, no one has done even moderate study on the kinds of forces/pressures at which this starts to happen.

I can give you some basic direction, but again, following it needs care because you can readily damage these stones :

-as you increase force you will feel more resistance on the stone because it is biting in too deep

-as you keep increasing force this stops, you have reached max depth and it isn't of benefit to push further

-use lubricant

-rinse the stones readily

As a rough idea, you are looking at 1000 to 10, 000 passes to reset an edge even on a small knife from 20 to 15 degrees on those rods unless you are willing to use excessive force.
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 22, 2015 09:17AM
How do you feel about getting a DMT XXC for setting new bevels? They way you describe it, it sounds like I need to use so much force on the XXC that I might as well damage it? What time reduction could I expect for the same task compared to using the Spyderco rods?

I finished the knife yesterday and ended up with around 500 pps. So that actually sounds OK, if I understood you correctly.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 22, 2015 12:34PM
For what it's worth, I have an XC DMT plate and had the same issues. Felt like I could grind forever with no results under what felt like a reasonable amount of force, but was also reluctant to go any harder and potentially damage it. Now I use SiC stones like the TASK and Norton Economy when I want to do manual coarse grinding. I don't worry about damaging or wearing them out (also helps that they're super cheap). I might revist the DMT for a few knives I want to reprofile soon, hopefully I can figure out how to use it for more than a paperweight.

-Nate
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 22, 2015 12:51PM
I like the feedback of dry grinding on the diamond rods, too bad if a SiC stone works better here. I'm lazy when it comes to maintaining the stones, that's really not my thing.
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 22, 2015 01:55PM
I wouldn't say "better" in general, just what has worked for me. I am also still relatively inexperienced/lazy/impatient, but I'm slowly working on it.

-Nate
sai
Re: Advice for setting new bevels
August 22, 2015 11:01PM
My finished edges usually have a side which shaves a bit easier than the other. This is remaining burr right?