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Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge

Posted by jasonstone20 
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 15, 2016 11:59AM
Has anyone been able to get a straight razor style HHT of 3 or more on a knife? It took a lot of work, and I finally got one to do a HHT2 (split the hair), but none of my sharpest knives will do anything on the HHT other than a HHT1 (doesn't cut the hair, but vibrates the hair). To get the HHT2, it took a lot of work with strops and diamond compounds to get it there.

Also, is there any practical value in taking a knife, say for EDC or general kitchen work (paring, chef's) getting a knife with a high push cutting sharpness (that still retains its slicing ability)?

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2016 12:21PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 15, 2016 12:14PM
I also just tried some of my traditional style knives (Opinel #6, Colds Steel Eland, Icel slipjoint, MAM Linerlock) that all have thin FFG and are some of my sharpest knives. I didn't do any special preparation sharpening, and I was able to get all these knives to cut the tissue paper cleanly. I need to test for a HHT on these knives, but along with careful sharpening, the high push cutting tests also are seeming to favor a particular geometry.

Edit
PS: I only could get HHT1's, where the hair vibrates when dragged across the edge.
I did get to try and test about the geometry with my two Benchmade 940's, and I was able to get them to cut cleanly also.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2016 12:33PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 15, 2016 12:36PM
Still not bad at all Jason. I have noticed those all have fairly basic steels on the lower end of hardness, do you happen to own anything in AEB-L? If I'm correct you have one of Kyle's knives in M4. I'm curious to see what you can do with those. The simpler, softer steels are probably easier to sharpen but with the ones with less grindability maybe you could get them to behave differently by virtue of how the time spent on each stone would be. If I am not explaining myself clearly, maybe you would spend a significantly larger amount of time in the higher grits and that might be a catalyst for change.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 15, 2016 02:08PM
Thank you for the kind words. The knife I have from Kyle is in AEB-L (I really wouldn't mind one of his knives in M4!) , and along with the Gold Dollar 208 straight razor, it was the only knife I could get to cut free-hanging tissue with a regular style sharpening.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 16, 2016 08:03PM
Well, I was able to repeat the HHT2 on the Griptillian with pasted and plain leather stropping, while still retaining slicing aggression. I sure would like to be able to get that right off the hones. I had done it a few times before, but I have a better idea of what is going on so I can try different things, and I am learning a lot.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 16, 2016 09:30PM
Well, I made some progress, I was able to get a HHT2 right off the Spyderco UF. I wonder if the edge will improve will stropping.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 20, 2016 09:49AM
I think I have the procedure to get HHT 0-2's on knives, that keeps slicing aggression and doesn't require stropping, plain or pasted. Unfortunately, some of the techniques go against maximizing edge retention, I need to figure out how to balance those two attributes.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2016 09:50AM by jasonstone20.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 20, 2016 12:11PM
Do they go against maximizing edge retention because you're concerned you might be using a non-optimal grit, or because of excessive wear to the edge? Or is it something else?
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 20, 2016 05:41PM
It's mostly from deformation or burnishing the apex.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 21, 2016 08:59AM
Let me clarify with a little more detail. I either strop on a hanging strop with plain rough weave linen/canvas and plain leather, or a wood-backed rough side up pasted leather strop. I also will draw the knife through wood and then do more passes. I have been able to get edges that will do a HHT 0, 1, and 2 without using those techniques, but that is recently. Also, I wasn't able to increase the HHT level by using a plain or pasted strop, and there's the risk of losing slicing agression, and having no slicing ability. I was having success originally by stropping, drawing through wood (like Murray Carter or cKc/Kylie) and then sharpening on the stones again.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 23, 2016 12:44AM
I have had good luck with stropping on green compound on a hardback leather strop and keeping slicing aggression. The main thing is I am constantly crossing the scratch pattern by doing heel to tip and tip to heel. Anyone else tried this? I am doing around 40 pps and still keeping slicing aggression. It is reduced from straight off the stones, but it is still there compared to normal stropping.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 23, 2016 08:18AM
Terri,
Yes, when I do minimal stropping (2 pps) on a pasted strop, I go heel to tip, then tip to heel. It's something I saw in a Gavko YouTube a few years back: [youtu.be]

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2016 08:25AM by jasonstone20.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 23, 2016 09:51AM
Let me run and experiment a few times and see if an excessive stropping will still retain some slicing aggression.
cKc
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 23, 2016 01:56PM
If you want to see an example of excessive stropping then Virtuovice overstrops all his knives on his youtube videos. he can still cut up his deer reasonably fine with them. I think Slicing Agression is a hard one to determine unless measuring it specifically and having some form of benchmark.

Do you mean Retain it from the Outset, or retain it after slicing for a while?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
[data.gearbastion.com]
KnivesAndStuff (YoutTube)
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 23, 2016 03:26PM
Retention from where it left off from the stone, which I will try a few variations. Still forming a plan though.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 23, 2016 08:39PM
Terri,
I have been getting good results on just plain leather, maybe try it out compare that also?

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 25, 2016 10:52AM
I went back and tested some knives that were in my EDC rotation that I considered had the sharpest edges, and they all passed a HHT2 (catch and split hair) and still have slicing aggression. I then went to my sharpening log to see how I had sharpened them, and as it was slightly different than what I had tried lately, I have two procedures that will produce the edge. One of the main differences was using a plain vs pasted strop. I am beginning to think that a sharpening taken to a high grit (6k-8k+ JIS) with a clean apex and careful stropping should pass this test. I am going to try some other knives in my EDC rotation. To get the clean tissue slicing, I have found you need a HHT3, 4, or 5 to be successful, and I am not sure I can get a knife pass a HHT2.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 26, 2016 07:10PM
Luisknivacc,
I sharpened up a Irwin Bi-Metal blade which I believe is M2. I couldn't really get it any sharper than what I have achieved before, it is just easier and less work with high apex stability steels, but they will pass a HHT2 without stropping, just the edge right from the stone (If I am careful i can get 154CM and S30V to do the same, up to AUS8/8cr13 is just normal sharpening). I was only able to get a small amount of refinement of the edge stropping on wood with diamond paste. So either my skills have plateaued, or my testing method, or maybe both. I was able to get some knives in my EDC rotation that were sharp (shaving but not tree-topping) to pass the HHT up to a 2 just by stropping on rough linen/canvas and plain leather. What I am going to look for now is any degradation in edge retention or if the edges relax if rested and lose there keenness.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2016 07:14PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
November 30, 2016 10:20AM
Well, I learned a few things. On the HHT, my beard hair reacts just as well as my head hair on razors and knives. I don't know why. Also, some if what I thought were HHT0's and HHT2's were actually HHT3's and maybe HHT4's. I don't think I can get a knife any sharper at this point, so until I figure out something else or find new information or techniques, I am just going to keep practicing.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
December 08, 2016 07:02AM
So I tried a test. I sharpened my SAK Super Tinker's large blade with a #220 diamond hone. It would shave and push cut at a 3*90º on newspaper, but wouldn't register on the HHT. I then stropped on a hanging leather and linen/canvas strop (plain, neither pasted). The blade would then pass a HHT2, which I find very interesting.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
December 17, 2016 01:43AM
Still working on coming up with a test but in the mean time I tried something a little silly.
I took my Cara Cara 2 in 8Cr13MoV and cut off the edge with a 120 grit Sic stone and reset the bevel then worked up from a 1k to 6k water stone, then used a Spyderco UF sharp maker rod. All passes per stone around 100pps. Then I did the odd bit I did 140pps on a green rouge pasted strop.
This will whittle even my head hair free hanging, which I've never done before. It of course lost all slicing aggression.
Then I did the really odd thing. I did 100pps on the spyderco UF after raising the angle to double on the blade and doing 1pps and then went back to the edge bevel angle. It won't whittle free hanging head hair anymore, but will whittle other hair free hanging, and has almost all of the slicing aggression back for a UF stone.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
January 02, 2017 07:45PM
From running these edges for ECD the last couple of months, I have noticed a few things that can interfere with achieving high push cutting sharpness.
  1. Edge Fatigue
    I have found that if the blade is not resharpened back down to a 1k JIS stone every 4-8 sharpenings, the apex won't form clean. With certain steels with high apex stability, high push cutting an be achieved without plain linen and leather stropping, just right off the finest stone.
  2. Burr
    Often, a burr that isn't visible or can be felt is present, and the blade will feel sharp, but fail high push cutting tests i.e. shaving with both directions, tree topping hair, 3x90* push cutting on newsprint or phone book paper, any Hanging Hair Test
  3. Stropping
    Mostly not necessary with high apex steels up to and including AUS8/8CR13MoV, and can be done with care even on more carbide rich steels. Plain linen stropping and plain leather stropping can bring a well honed very fine edge (6-8k+ JIS) to were it will pass high push cutting sharpness tests with initial sharpening (starting at 1k JIS up to 6k-8k+JIS) and subsequent maintenance Sharpening (starting at 4k JIS or higher) unless Edge Fatigue (point 1) or Burr (point 2) are present. An additional note, pasted stropping (abrasive loaded stropping medium) is most useful with initial sharpening, I have had spotty results with it in all facets of sharpening, but more controlled work needs to be done, but when used by itself for maintenance or along with maintenance sharpening, it doesn't seem to be very useful for achieving a high sharpness push cutting edge that will still have slicing agression.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
January 02, 2017 08:46PM
I kinda got side tracked in testing. I started to see if I could get head hair whittling straight off a stone using my highest grit abrasives. I initially didn't have much success, but through lowering my forces used and doing a ton of burr minimizing techniques I could do it off a Spyderco UF sharp maker rod.

This lead me down the rabbit hole of what is the lowest grit I can do this. Current record just happened. Went from Spyderco UF, to DMT EEF, to King 6k. Now I can do it if I really take my time of DMT EF.

It isn't easy, and frankly I know the instant I have to fix a mess up now on sharpening. It is all about not having too much force and being almost machine like in precision with every pass.

This is with 8cr13MoV and AUS8 steels.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
January 02, 2017 08:56PM
Terri,
If you were having difficulties, did you try cutting off the edge and starting at an 1k JIS hone? I have found a fresh edge is easier to work with.

PS:
Nice work...

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2017 08:58PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
January 02, 2017 09:22PM
Yeah I forgot to mention now I always cut off the apex and start fresh each sharpening when I go for high sharpness.
It just eliminates that potential right off the bat. Even still it isn't easy to get to that level of sharpness. Sometimes I fail to get it right at the end and have to restart almost from scratch depending on the mistake.
It frankly makes sharpening unfun (ugly/funky) until you go to test then the reward is there. Which is opposite of how I like to sharpen.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
January 02, 2017 10:11PM
Yes, it can make sharpening unfun....I have to be in a certain mood or have a nagging question bothering me to do testing, I am way to ADD and not enough OCD.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
January 03, 2017 10:43AM
Another good test for high sharpness (whether high or low grit) is the ability to cut cigarette papers or aluminum foil.

On another topic, I see it mentioned frequently that high sharpness edges (usually high grit finishes, but also sometimes more coarse finishes) are just for "show" and really serve no purpose. I think that it has been shown that the edge benefits from being as sharpened as sharp as it is possible for the user to get it, whether a high grit or low grit edge. There also seems to be a concern that a micro-bevel will detract from the blades sharpness, while a blade without one will be sharper, do to is smaller angle. It has been shown, again several times by different sources, that an edge with a clean, almost burr-free apex is sharper than an edge with a smaller angle, but with more of a burr on the apex. All of this becomes clear when you understand a few things: How a blade cuts, that it is the geometry, then the finish, that are the main factors in how the edge performs. The second thing is how a blade dulls, that most dulling is from deformation vs wear ( this can vary on what you are cutting especially if cutting abrasive materials). I have found that a carefully sharpened low grit knife, as well as a high grit knife, can push cut, as well as slice. The main differences between the two extremes is that a low grit knife will slice better and longer, and its push cutting abilities are less and won't last as long. A high grit edge will perform a push cut easier, and last longer, but won't slice as well and as long. This is all speaking in general, of coarse.

Conclusion:
For the best performance and edge retention, sharpen the knife to the best of your abilities and use an appropriate grit finsih.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2017 10:59AM by jasonstone20.
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
January 05, 2017 09:03AM
Another thing I have noticed was that for a knife to get a HH2+, the angle needs to be fairly low (>30* inclusive, 15* DPS). A knife with a larger angle will still whittle hair, but will struggle getting a HHT2+.

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
January 05, 2017 09:24AM
While posting this link in another thread, I noticed that Jeff Clark says a similar thing (sorry for using this link again!!):

[www.bladeforums.com]

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge
January 05, 2017 07:24PM
Found a good summary of the basic techniques for moving beyond shaving sharp:

[www.spyderco.com]

"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
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