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Steel Drake makes sharpening videos

Posted by Steel_Drake 
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Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 11, 2016 01:22PM
I recently decided I wanted to make a few sharpening videos to share some of what I've managed to learn about sharpening as I sorted through the enormous mountain of half-truths mixed with lies found in the online conventional wisdom about the subject.

I started by making a brief tutorial on burr based sharpening aimed at complete beginners to freehanding. I've ended up coming to believe that a total beginner is probably better off learning a burr based approach at first, as at the very least the formation of a full length burr on both sides can largely eliminate the most common problem new sharpeners are going to have.

[www.youtube.com]

I also made a brief tutorial on the three step method, which I hope makes the process a little easier to follow and more believably achievable by human beings that Cliff's original stone-in-hand 89 passes per second feat of apparent wizardry video.

[www.youtube.com]

I've got more videos shot that I'm still in the process of editing and uploading, but I wanted to post those so I could get any feedback, comments, criticisms, etc. ASAP.

(the module that makes videos out of links only works on very specific link formats, if it doesn't respond to your link, then just leave the link there directly



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2016 05:34PM by CliffStamp.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 11, 2016 03:27PM
Nice!
For some reason I couldn't get the link to load, so here's another one:
[youtu.be]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 11, 2016 03:35PM
Steel_Drake:
I have been going back and forth between which is easier for a beginner, burr sharpening or burr-free sharpening. For a while, I thought that if you were learning by yourself, that burr sharpening would be easier, because you can at least see and feel a burr, and even an edge with a burr is somewhat sharp, and can shave sometimes. With personal instruction, I thought it that burr-free sharpening would be best, as you don't have to worry about burr removal as much, which beginners often struggle with. However, the more I sharpen, the more read/study/watch videos/learn, I have aabsolutely no idea which would be easier for the beginner. I learned both when I learned (actually still learning....) how to sharpen at first, but I had some gaps in my fundamentals that gave me inconsistent results. I think that understanding the fundamentals of sharpening are necessary, and then whatever the person feels comfortable with using.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 11, 2016 03:40PM
Oddly, it seems at least half my first post disappeared into the ether, and the link is broken.

Lets try that again:

Tutorial on Burr Based Sharpening:

[youtu.be]

I also made a tutorial video for the three step method that I hoped would make the process seem more achievable by mere mortals than the 978 passes per second made while holding the stone in the other hand video Cliff originally posted:

Tutorial on Three Step Sharpening:

[youtu.be]
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 11, 2016 03:45PM
Also, have you ever noticed a difference in edge retention between the two techniques? I was wondering if there would be a difference when you make a burr, and then just make is smaller and smaller with burr-minimization and finer stones. With my clamped systems (Gatco Edgmate, DMT Magna-Guide Aligner) and Edge Pro Clone, I can get very high sharpness levels, and with no detectable burr.....it is just a longer process that the 3-step/Plateau method, which is much faster.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 11, 2016 03:49PM
Jason,

I came to believe that a burr based approach is easier for a beginner learning by themselves based on my own experiences, where the vast majority of the difficulties I had when I was learning could have been avoided if I had stuck to a coarse stone and practiced properly apexing and deburring before trying to incorporate higher grits or learning a three step approach.

My thinking is just that using a burr based method you can at least mostly try to preclude a failure to reach an apex as the problem, and try to avoid the oft repeated story of someone spending hours trying to sharpen a knife, not getting anywhere productive, and giving up in frustration.

If anything, after I made the video I considered whether I should have shown apexing at a slightly higher angle as a separate step after deburring. I may make an addendum video about that.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 11, 2016 03:55PM
Jason,

I haven't noticed a difference in edge retention because I almost never use a burr based approach myself. Only when I am re-profiling an edge bevel and want to be absolutely sure the new bevel angle is fully cut in do I deliberately form a burr.

I would assume that using a succession of friable stones reaching fairly high grits would inherently do a lot of the work of burr minimization. I know from my own experience that as long as you regularly switch sides, the kind of microscopic burr you can form on a 6k+ friable abrasive is unlikely to be of much practical consequence. I don't think I ever remember having a micro-burr of any significance off a 8k+ waterstone.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 11, 2016 04:34PM
SD,
Awesome, thank you!

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 11, 2016 08:52PM
Added a short one showing me cutting off the apex and quickly shaping my Spyderco Mantra in CPM-M4 on a King 1000 until it will cleanly slice newsprint and push-cut it with the grain at 90 degrees in ~30 pp:

video: [youtu.be]

I have another one I will be uploading soon doing something similar with a Spyderco Caly 3.5 in ZDP-189.

Both videos were made to demonstrate that King waterstones have no trouble sharpening these two steels the way I use them (permasoaked, flattened immediately prior to use to generate a slurry).
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 12:03AM
Hi,
A wet/damp/misted paper towel is less slippery than dry

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2016 12:21AM by ShaperAndMower.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 12:05AM
Steel_Drake,
I haven't had the any trouble with King 1k either. It cuts ATS34/154CM, S30V, D2, and Elmax easily. Looks like you have some higher carbide steels than I do, it's nice to see it cuts those also!

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 12:22AM
Steel_Drake,
I had a similar issue when learning to sharpen, which is why I guess I also initially was thinking burr-based would be easier for a beginner. Myself, I went through an unsuccessful attempt at burr-sharpening (Wayne Goddard method, couldn't deburr-also, the knives I was using for sharpening were difficult to sharpen, due to being damaged by power sharpening, they still are difficult), a successful attempt at burr-free sharpening (basically cutting off the apex, and sharpening until the light stopped reflecting, from a book I got on sharpening at the library, it was similar to plateau sharpening ie the 3 Step method without micro-beveling, just a light deburring), then a successful burr-based sharpening (John Juranich method, able to get all my knives shaving sharp from then on, Murray Carter technique for waterstones), then an ill-fated strop-burr removal experiment, then burr-free sharpening (Cliff Stamp 3-Step and Plateau methods, crossing scratch patterns and short passes, with the Jeff Clark burr removal, able to detect and remove small burrs, all knives shave/whittle beard hair or head hair) and then finally the muddy stone technique (Cliff Stamp) for making high sharpeness edges almost automatic when apexed with a hard, flat stone.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 01:19AM
Quote
ShaperAndMower
Hi,
A wet/damp/misted paper towel is less slippery than dry

Thanks for the tip, I ended up going out and buying a roll of shelf grip to avoid that kind of silliness in the future!
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 03:27PM
Steel_Drake,
In one of the video's you mentioned that the DMT EEF was about the same finish as a Spyderco Medium sintered ceramic hone/rod. I found this interesting, so I tried it out with my DMT EF/EEF Green/Tan 1.2k(9u)/8k(3u) Diafold, and the two Spyderco Medium grit rods, the 204 (M) Triangle Rod, and the 701 (M) Profile Elliptical shaped hone. The 204 Triangle was older, and had more use on it, and had about the same finish and polish as the DMT EEF, while the newer and less used 701 Profile, left a finish closer to a Soft Arkansas or 1k King hone. I don't have a Spyderco Fine hone, just a UF, but I do have a Lansky White Fine Ceramic round rod, but I haven't compared it to the others.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 03:45PM
I have just finished watching these and I wanted to say a big thanks for putting these out. They are a good source of information and also explained why some of my previous attempts have gone wrong in the past. I am looking forward to putting what i learnt watching the videos into practice.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 04:00PM
Steel_Drake,
I just tried a few other stones to compare to the EEF DMT, the Spyderco 204 UF triangle rod, the Lanksy Fine rod, Medium rod, and Gatco Tri-Ceps Ceramic. The Fine was like the DMT EEF or used Spyderco Medium, maybe even finer, approaching the UF Spyderco, while the Tri-ceps was about same as the used Spyderco Medium, while the Lanksy Medium Crock-Stick was like a new Spyderco Medium, Soft Arkansas, or King 1k. The Spydeco UF rod was above everything easily, a very fine, very high polish.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 04:06PM
Jason,

That's really interesting. Back when I used to use them more, I always found I consistently got higher push cutting sharpness off of my Spyderco M benchstone and my Spyderco M ceramic rods than I did off of my DMT EEF. I will double check that comparison when I have a chance.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 04:47PM
Steel_Drake,
Maybe the test material I was using might have an effect, as it was just a replaceable utility knife blade, which are fairly easy to grind. From what I have noticed using the DMT EEF just in sharpening, it looks like it leaves a 4k-6k JIS finish so far. It's still fairly new, they are supposed to break in and get finer. I was surprised by the Spyderco 204 (M) rod, as I just got this year, about 4 months before the 701 (M) Profile, that the difference would be so great between them, ie for the 701 (M), 1k (estimated) , and the 204 (M), 6k(estimated). About how old or how much use does your Spyderco Medium have on it? Have you ever conditioned it?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 12, 2016 08:50PM
Jason,

I haven't conditioned it, but I hadn't thought it had gotten enough use to get that much finer. I'll take some microscopic pictures of the scratch pattern produced later today probably.

In the meantime, a couple of more videos:

A quick clip showing how I flatten waterstones:

[www.youtube.com]

And another demonstrating the use of high angle deburring passes and back sharpening on a Spyderco M benchstone:

[www.youtube.com]
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 13, 2016 11:15PM
Steel Drake, the 90 push cut was more like slicing and the newsprint was tilted significantly(3 step sharpening video). Are you aware of that?
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 13, 2016 11:30PM
Quote
nattypringles
Steel Drake, the 90 push cut was more like slicing and the newsprint was tilted significantly(3 step sharpening video). Are you aware of that?

I hadn't noticed it being particularly tilted, I think the angle of the camera exaggerated the apparent tilt and I also wasn't being super careful about form as I was just using a quick check of push cutting sharpness and burr elimination.

In any case, I've previously made a couple of other videos where I am more careful of maintaining a 90/90/90 angle when initiating the push cut, in particular this one. As far as my understanding of the concept goes, those are initiated as 90/90/90 pushcuts. I don't actually know how I would go about getting mechanically any closer to a straight down 90/90/90 pushcut while using my hands.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 14, 2016 01:12AM
If you have to actually think about if you are doing a push cut or not then you are closer than 99% of the people who claim to do them.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 14, 2016 03:47AM
Quote
nattypringles
Steel Drake, the 90 push cut was more like slicing and the newsprint was tilted significantly(3 step sharpening video). Are you aware of that?
Hi,
Yes, it looks that way even when hes got it very close to 90-90-90
the camera isn't exactly perpendicular so angle seems off more than it really is
But he braces the knife against his fingers,
And is getting true 90 in all three dimensions most of the time

It is obvious the few times when spine is tilted left or right ,
the cut lines in the paper go off to one side very early ,
but most of the time its spot on or very very very close
close enough that I'd call it a true 90


To get knife to do 80-80-80 push cut
but not be able to do 90-90-90
or to do 90-90-90 on one part of the blade
but only 70-80-80 on another
Its not very likely ... its kind of an all or nothing thing
at least in my experience smiling smiley

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 14, 2016 03:34PM
A couple more videos:

A short demonstration of shearing off a burr using high angle passes:





A comparison of deburring techniques (pull-through wood or cork vs high angle passes):



Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 14, 2016 04:05PM
Cliff, ShaperandMower,
Exactly....

Steel_Drake,
Awesome videos!

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 15, 2016 01:20AM
Any plans to compare strops for burr removal.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 15, 2016 01:43AM
Jason,

Thanks!

Quote
TerriLiGunn
Any plans to compare strops for burr removal.

You mean comparing strops to high angle passes for removing large (i.e. detectable by eye and feel) burrs?

Do you want to see plain leather, rough leather, and/or strops pasted with stropping compounds?

As far as compounds go, I've got strops pasted with 16 micron CBN and 30 micron CBN.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 15, 2016 02:31AM
Anything you want to do. I have very limited first hand knowledge of burr removal with a strop.
Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 15, 2016 02:49AM
I second the strop deburring comparison, both plain and pasted, that would be incredible to see.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Steel Drake makes sharpening videos
August 15, 2016 03:25PM
Jason and Terri,

I'll make something along those lines. Need to make a plain and rough leather strop for the comparison. I've got a couple of other deburring ideas I may want to try as well.

Also,

Two more videos:

1) How quickly can you take a dull knife to doing crossgrain pushcuts on newsprint?





2) Can a Sigma Power Select II sharpen a ceramic knife?