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Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds

Posted by SVallieres 
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 05, 2016 01:50AM
Cliff,
Makes sense, thank you.

SV,
Exactly what Collin, said, that was spot on.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 05, 2016 02:59AM
Quote
jasonstone20
SV,
Exactly what Collin, said, that was spot on.

Just to be sure, Collin is C Amber?


How good would be such a set of stones:

Nubatama 24 or 60, 120 and 400
+
Bester Imanishi 1000, 4000 and 8000
+
Spyderco F and UF

Just in case someone ask, the reason why I would go with Nubatama in the low grits is because they are available in brick size (2'' thick) which gives a lot for the money and I would go with Bester Imanishi for others because they are available here in Canada at Lee Valley and that would avoid custom fees.

I guess I could go with the Norton (they come in a nice plastic case) but I'm afraid they will wear too fast.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 05, 2016 03:10AM
SV,
Yes.

I would pick up a Naniwa SS 400 or King 1k also. I am not sure how the Besters behave with or without a slurry. If you just want to try out the concept, just pick up a TASK Scythe/Garden Hone, a King K80 220/1k, and you already have the bases covered with the DiaFolds. You can pick up the TASK and the King K80 on Amazon.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 05, 2016 04:15AM
I want to thank you all for your help and patience, I learned a lot in this thread. smileys with beer
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 05, 2016 09:15AM
I've used a Nubatama 60 and I liked it. Reminded me a lot of a Norton Crystolon. I might steer clear of the 24 just because I don't think anyone has actually decided how you can resurface it short of a power grinder or tile saw. It is a very strong bond from what I understand.

And I wouldn't invest in all of those right away. I did that, and honestly I have like 10 stones that sit around never getting used.

I would get a coarse one (and I'd probably go Crystolon...I know they can be resurfaced pretty easily) and then the Bester 1000, and if money isn't a big deal maybe the 4000. See what you can do with those.

Collin / C Amber

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 06, 2016 04:17AM
Thanks a lot Collin!


I rarely hear/read about the Norton waterstones, anyone has used them? According to what I read, they wear quite fast... but they come in a nice plastic case that protect them when stored which I think is the way all expensive stones should come in...
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 06, 2016 05:47AM
SV,
I have a quartered set of Norton Combination Waterstones (220/1k, 4k/8k). I prefer the King K40/K80 220/1k over the Norton 220/1k, and I really like the 4k/8k for preparing and edge and polishing. I would like to get a full sized 4k/8k.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 07, 2016 02:57AM
Jason,

may I ask you why you prefer the King 220/1000 over the Norton 220/1000? Is it because the Norton wear/dish too fast?
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 07, 2016 05:09AM
SV,
The 220 side dishes fast, and it sheds grit faster than it cuts. The 1k side has a watery slurry, which doesn't help for burr reduction. These are designed for woodworking chisels, so they are best at cutting O1, A2, M2 ect (I use easier to grind steel on my knives), and the stones I have are 3"x2", instead of the size the come new, 8"x3", so that could also explain the wear on the 220. The King 220 side cuts a little better on the steels I use, but dishes almost as bad as the Norton, and the 1k side produces a burr reducing slurry (I have the K40 5"x1" and the K80 8"x2"winking smiley and cuts almost as fast as the Norton 1k side.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 07, 2016 05:54PM
Thank you very much!

After re-reading all the thread and some others and watching Steel Drake's videos, I think I will go with the King 1K/4K (the big one) for working on edge bevels and reducing the burr prior to apexing with the DMT DiaSharp I already have. I will probable get the Spyderco F and UF in 8X2X0.5 too. JDavis on YouTube really likes the UF and he seems to get very sharp edges with it.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 07, 2016 06:28PM
SV,
Sounds like a good set up. Have you made a decision with a XC or hone?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 07, 2016 07:49PM
Jason,

for the low grit stones I think I'll go with Nubatama, they are 2'' thick which gives a lot for the money. ChefKnivesToGo is discountinuing them but Mr. Richmond (CKTG) put me in contact with Mr. Schwartz (who carries the Nubatamas) so I'll be able to buy them. I'll get a 120 and 400 and maybe a 60 too but I need to save some before buying them so I have time to think about it.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 01:20AM
SV,
You could always go the garden/scythe hone and a Norton Economy SiC or Norton Crystolon route in the meantime, garden/scythe hones are less than $10USD, the Economy around $10-15USD, and the Crystolon is around $20USD, so in total you'd be looking at around $20-30USD for two hones and three grits (100# or less for the garden hone, 180/320# for the Economy SiC/Crystolon). The Nubutamas are nice stones I have heard.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2016 01:21AM by jasonstone20.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 01:38AM
That would indeed be a low cost set, but I'm the type of guy who will splash water everywhere just the get a glass full of water, so imagine me messing with oil eye popping smiley There would be oil everywhere.

In other words, I want to stay away from oil stones.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 01:43AM
So use liquid soap instead. smiling smiley
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 02:10AM
SV,
The garden/scythe stone is usually a waterstone, the Norton Economy can be used with water, or like 42B said, some dish soap. They are good stones to have, as you can use them to condition the lower grit waterstones you plan to buy. Just a suggestion.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 02:14AM
Scythe stones are, in my opinion, one of the most versatile of stones shapes and I have a rather large collection of them in a range of grits and bond strengths. Everyone needs at least one of 'em around, and they're very comfortably used as an abrasive file on long blades like machetes.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 02:19AM
42B,
I agree. I have the TASK, Gator, and Norton versions, they are some of my most useful stones.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 02:23AM
I'll have to do a real count of all of mine! I think I have at least a dozen different models. I even recently had some custom ones manufactured for me in a nice medium-hard 400 grit blue aluminum oxide.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 02:29AM
42B,
That 400 grit sounds interesting. Mine are all very coarse, around 100#. I keep looking for some vintage natural scythe stones, but it's hard to find them in decent condition sometimes.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 02:37AM
Most vintage ones in North America are of American pattern. In natural stones, this is simply a long (9" or more) rectangle in natural stones, or a lenticular-sectioned bar in synthetics. Canoe-shaped natural stones are more commonly found in Europe or in North American regions that had high rates of European immigration. I've got some rather interesting vintage stones of both American and Euro patterns in the collection. May have to start a thread on them once I get them all organized. I even have some new old stock emery "rifle" hones, which are emery grit bonded to a wooden paddle in a thick buildup that makes a lenticular-sectioned bar in shape, but with a wooden core. Lighter than a solid stone, and a handy sharpening tool that's only manufactured by an obscure German company these days, from what I've been able to turn up.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 03:56AM
Quote
42Blades
So use liquid soap instead.

Quote
jasonstone20
SV,
The garden/scythe stone is usually a waterstone, the Norton Economy can be used with water, or like 42B said, some dish soap. They are good stones to have, as you can use them to condition the lower grit waterstones you plan to buy. Just a suggestion.

Really!? Liquid dish soap can be used on oil stones?

If you had to rate it in terms of effeciency (preventing glazing), how would you (let's say light mineral oil is 100%)?
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 04:00AM
It works just fine. I don't really use oil on any of my stones, as I prefer to use water under most circumstances. If I ever have stones that benefit from a thicker lubricant (such as stones that are non-porous like alumina ceramic) then either just a drop of dish soap to break the surface tension of the water or a little stripe of straight soap on the stone work great and wash off without a hitch.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 04:29AM
SV,
With a SiC stone, %50-70 with water, %70-90 with soap. If you have the garden hone, you can just condition the AiC stone with it when it needs it. Oil just keeps the stone in better shape for longer, as well as being a better lubricant. But water is better than dry, and soap is better than water, and oil is better than soap.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2016 04:31AM by jasonstone20.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 04:45AM
42B,
I need to look up some information and do some research about them, looks like you have found some great stuff.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 02:16PM
Quote
SVallieres

Really!? Liquid dish soap can be used on oil stones?

If you had to rate it in terms of effeciency (preventing glazing), how would you (let's say light mineral oil is 100%)?

You can use anything, including dry, however they will all work quite poorly compared to oil as they are not meant to be high pressure lubricants. Soap is better than water which is better than dry, but that is kind of like saying it is better to be stabbed in the hand than shot in the head. [*]

In regards to oil going everywhere, the only oil that does anything is the oil right in contact with the abrasive, the rest of it doesn't do much at all. What you need is an applicator which can put a small amount of oil on the stone.

When you are finished sharpening the surface of the stone will have to be cleaned, there are a number of ways to do that, either use excess oil and then blot it until clear, or simply put it under water and use a brush (and some soap) to scrub it clean.

[*] As a point of clarity, there is no such thing as an oil or water stone. There are simply stones which have a very high bond strength and a very weak one and stones which have very high grit and coarse ones. The reason why oil works well on India stones is because they have such a high bond strength that they don't release abrasive and a strong lubricant is needed to minimize wear on the abrasive (otherwise you get frictional wear rapidly). As the abrasives are coarse a heavy oil can work and won't mask the abrasive (prevent contact). In contrast, something like a King has such a weak bond there is no concern about frictional wear as the abrasive just sheds. A very fine stone like a King 8000 will also likely be problematic with a heavy oil as it will tend to stop particle release.

[**] In short, stopping thinking about oil vs water stones is likely the first step in understanding abrasives. No one in industry talks about oil abrasives or water abrasives. This is just disinformation propagated through marketing in hand stones.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 08, 2016 02:54PM
SV,
Cliff did a better explanation than I did, and it makes more sense. Cliff has a great video on using the Norton Economy SiC: [youtu.be]

You can also just get a dedicated rag/washcloth/towel to use when using oil. It really isn't anymore messy than a muddy waterstone.

Cliff,
Great explanation. Using oil as a lubricant on my Crystolon, India and Arkansas stones, I don't have to condition them nearly as much than using them dry (the worst, I have some stones that need to be conditioned immediately after use dry, they completely glass over) or with soap (same issue, just not as fast). Also, with water, I get a lot of heat build up when doing fast, light passes, that just doesn't happen with oil.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 09, 2016 05:23AM
Thanks a lot for the explanation!

I watched the video which I had already seen long ago and because of what I know now, it made much better sense to me this time.

This one is also very interesting/educative in regards to stones.


And I learned that the TASK stones are waterstones, I was sure (because of their low cost) they were oil stones...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2016 05:58AM by SVallieres.
Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
September 09, 2016 02:25PM
SV,
The same thing happens to me, I frequently go back and watch Cliff's YouTube videos, as he is several years (and probably a few thousand knife sharpenings) ahead of me when it comes to sharpening knowledge and experience, so things he did a few years ago I am just starting to relate to aand be able to duplicate. The video I posted was the first time I had seen sharpening techniques used like that all at once, and an explanation of why you do them. I had been using some of the techniques, but it was more out of good luck (as my knives got sharp easier when I used them than without) as I didn't have a grasp on they how, what, and why's. I was just parroting other people's sharpening style, going through the motions mostly.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Sharpening an Ontario machete with DMT Diafolds
May 20, 2020 08:31PM
Hey guys, does the edge of a machete need a shaving sharp edge? Mine seems to not be shaving sharp at the moment, should I leave it or sharpen it? And if I sharpen it, what grit do I stop with?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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