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Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone

Posted by oldsailorsknives 
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Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 04, 2017 07:58PM
Thinking about buying the K-80 version, 8" x 2" x 1" that is 250 on one side and 1000 on the other. It will be my first "water stone". any thoughts or comments or how to tips? using Norton catalog as a reference, seems like coarse side will be similar to a medium India and the fine side close to my smith fine diamond.
just curious how they will work.
I was also told on a cooking forum: [www.cheftalk.com]
"There is a reason why all professional sharpeners use waterstones, simply, they're faster than oilstones. They don't clog and the medium refeshens itself while you sharpen. You can actually get silicon carbide waterstones, but for whatever reason they don't work well. "
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 04, 2017 10:12PM
Scott,
I have 2 K-40's (1"x5" 220/1k) and the K-80. The green side is SiC (if I remember right), and wears/dishes fairly quickly. It does work well, it just takes a little to find how to use it. The 1k is AlO and is awesome, the standard workhorse King waterstone. I think you would like having is as a useful tool and addition to your sharpening equipment.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 05, 2017 01:25AM
Jason,
I have many SiC stones, would i be better off just getting the 1k?
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 05, 2017 02:12AM
Scott,
It is a different type of SiC stone, it is super friable, almost like the TASK Garden/Scythe hone. It leaves a different finish with a slurry, which it generates in big clumps...to get it to cut fast, I have found that you rinse the stone often to clean off the slurry. If you want to do repair work on a blade, but not get deep scratches that show up later under finer stones, use with a slurry and you will get a streaky but cloudy finish on the metal, and it cuts a lot slower with the slurry. I think it is worth having, unless you don't do a lot of repair work, initial bevel grinding, or changing bevel angles. It doesn't chew through metal as fast as an Norton India or Crystolon, and you can't use a lot of pressure with it. It is nice for wide bevels, and grinding the primary if minor thinning is wanted.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 06, 2017 04:01PM
Go with 800 grit full thickness king 32 mm - cheap, dependable, pleasure to work with...

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Life is GOOD!

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Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 06, 2017 04:27PM
Scott,
Have you used resin bond/Japanese-style waters ones before? The 800/1000/1200 stones are nice for routine sharpening (not repair) of a knife that is already shaped/has the bevel ground, as a first step. If you are low on cash, a smaller K40 would work, if you like larger stones, then the K80, or a 800/4k, or a 1k/6k. To get the best value, as far as sharping real estate and to last a long time, as Stefan_Wolf suggested, I would buy a large Sun Tiger 220 ~8"x2.5"x1.5" (same SiC as the KIng, same manufacturer), a large 1k King ~8"x2.5"x1.5" and a King 4k or 6K 8"2.5"x1.5". I have the 220 and the 1k in 8x2.5x1.5, I still need to get a 4k or 6k.

What are you looking to do with the stones? Is there something in particular you are trying to do (mirror finish, ect?) or do you just want to try them out? The 1k is great for creating a edge bevel that is burr free and prepared to take an apex by a harder stone, as Cliff has shown and suggested. That is mostly what I use the King 1k for. They also are great all around stones for sharpening. Also, waterstones take a little time to learn how to use them, and they really should be kept as flat as possible to make sharpening fast and easy and less complicated.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 06, 2017 06:37PM
I am looking to try a water stone just to expand my knowledge and to see what I have been missing. I have several coarse, medium, and fine Norton Crystolon and Norton India stones. I also have diamond plates from 200 to 1200 grit. I also have a 2x72 belt grinder and an 8" disc grinder. the 250/1000 stone looked like a good place to start.

scott
[www.etsy.com]
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 06, 2017 07:36PM
Scott,
Since you have a few low grit SIC stones (like you mentioned in the first place ;-) ), I think that a 800/4K or 1k/6k King combination stone might me a better place to start, that is if you like those finishes, or you could get a separate 800/1000/1200 and 4k or 6k. The 220 grit (green) King doesn't offer that much in way of performance or practicality, and they dish quickly. They also can be tricky to use when first trying waterstones, due to the distraction of dealing with the massive amount of slurry that comes off the stone (and not the good kind like the King 1K that helps remove a burr, I am still trying to figure out how to benefit from this stone without wasting it).

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 09, 2017 03:52PM
Scott,

There is a big difference in the way the weak bond Japanese style stones behave compared to the India stones. On the weak bond stones that thick slurry grinds into the apex as much as it does the sides of the bevel, keep this in mind when sharpening.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 29, 2017 03:51PM
I find those green SiC stones to be about as effective as sidewalk chalk in comparison to a Norton Crystolon or the like. They're good for polishing out thinning scratches on the primary but there are better choices for repairs.

You might be happier with one of the vitrified Suehiro stones if this is your first waterstone*. They are harder to gouge and require less flattening than King stones, both of which make them more user-friendly but especially the former.

If you think you want a coarse/medium combo this is a reasonable choice.

When you're shopping, be aware that there are (at least) two common sizes for Japanese whetstones: ~ 210 x 75 mm and ~185 x 65 mm. The smaller size still has 20% more surface area than your average Western 8 x 2 in. stone (Norton or what have you) and is often a good value.

I like this Suehiro pretty well.

Naniwa also makes a line of "consumer grade" resin-bond stones that don't seem to be marketed in the US. The 1000 grit side of this one can get as muddy as a King, but in my experience is harder to gouge. The finish is brighter, a bit more consistent, and incrementally finer as well. Mostly I prefer it to the King because it requires very little soaking—if you spray the surface and let it settle in for 30 seconds, it's ready to go.

Here's a link to the Naniwa. I think sharpeningsupplies.com carries that line, as well.

If you're set on buying a King I would recommend the 800/4000. If you don't want or need the fine grit then there is a new stone about which I am curious, the 800 grit "Part 2" stone that they claim has been reformulate to be better-suited for wear-resistant steels. I'm not sure what that means for the end user but it's a huge chunk of abrasive for less than $20: King Pt. 2
I ordered it once but had to return it as it cracked in shipping.

Also worthy of note: King makes a 300 grit stone that is unlike anything else in the Deluxe line. It behaves like a Shapton Pro—the bond is so strong that the abrasive wears and the surface has to be conditioned with loose grit or a coarse diamond plate long before it dishes. It's totally nonporous ("splash 'n' go"winking smiley and never loads even when I use it to thin soft cladding. I prefer it to the Shapton 320 or Fine Crystolon. This would be my "desert island" stone if I could only have one.


*Sorry to use this term, Cliff, but its a lot more succinct than "weak bond Japanese-style stone"




P.S. I've been lurking for so long that I didn't realize that this was my first post. Hi, everybody!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2017 04:24PM by humphreyblowdart.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 29, 2017 04:15PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Have you used resin bond/Japanese-style waters ones before?
I know it's a really pedantic aside, but I've seen this repeated on this forum too many times.

King stones do not use a resin bond. Maybe the Deluxe 300 does, but according to the manufacturer the 800/1000/1200, 4000, 6000, and 8000 are all clay-based. They even make a point of emphasizing as much in some of their ad copy. Suehiro, Imanishi (Bester), and Naniwa all make similar stones in their respective "traditional" lines. The Neo and Hyper lines are more comparable to Bester or Cerax. I don't know what they use to bind their diamond stones but those are outside my price range anyway.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 29, 2017 04:45PM
Interesting.....I can't tell the differece, they feel and act like the Suehiro, Steelex/Woodstock, and Norton stones I have. I really don't have a large selection of Japanese style waterstones.

edit
PS:
Pedantic is what we do here!

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2017 04:50PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 29, 2017 05:05PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Interesting.....I can't tell the differece, they feel and act like the Suehiro, Steelex/Woodstock, and Norton stones I have. I really don't have a large selection of Japanese style waterstones.

edit
PS:
Pedantic is what we do here!

Yeah, I'm not sure how important the type of binder is from an end user perspective. The Naniwa Aotoshi and Shapton Pro 2000 are both resin-bonded and nominally 2000 grit but they feel very different in use. Based on my experience I would say that resin stones tend to be less porous and feel very smooth compared to other types but that's an anecdotal generalization. BTW, the Steelex stones are made by Suehiro.

P.S. If I'm being extra-special pedantic, the vitrified stones e.g. Suehiro Rika also use a clay binder, but it's a different type of clay and the firing temperatures are higher.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2017 05:06PM by humphreyblowdart.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 29, 2017 05:22PM
Quote
humphreyblowdart
King stones do not use a resin bond.

How do you know that? I can't find anything on the Matsunaga website.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2017 06:15PM by Ryan Nafe.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 29, 2017 06:11PM
I keep reading that about the Steelex/Woodstock 1k/6k, but the only source I can find for it is it being mentioned in knife and woodworking forums. It feels and looks like the same manufacturer as the Suehiro 1k/3k stone I have, and behaves similar during sharpening, so it wouldn't surprise me they where made by the same company.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2017 06:12PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 30, 2017 07:54AM
Quote
Ryan Nafe
Quote
humphreyblowdart
King stones do not use a resin bond.

How do you know that? I can't find anything on the Matsunaga website.

The website is uninformative but it's mentioned in all the ad copy. "The King 6000 grit deluxe finish waterstone is fired from 6000 grit abrasive mixed with a clay binder. There are no plastic compounds as in other manufacturers' 6000 grit stones." They go out of their way to specify that they do not use resin.
"These King large-sized combination water stones are fired from aluminum oxide abrasive and carefully screened for consistant size mixed into a clay matrix."

This TFJ blog entry doesn't outright say "King stones use a clay binder" but mentions that "old-school" stones do and that Kings are "old-school". I have seen no reference outside of this forum to the Kings using a resin bond. Also, the stones look and feel like earthenware. I think that Japanese waterstones being made of fired clay is the default so it usually goes without mention. Resin and magnesia binders are less common so manufacturers tend to highlight their use to differentiate such stones from the clay ones.

Quote
humphreyblowdart
The Naniwa Aotoshi and Shapton Pro 2000 are both resin-bonded

That was erroneous. The Pro/Kuromaku stones use a magnesia binder and so that was a bad example. What I meant is that there is variation within each type of binder and that other factors contribute to a stone's behavior besides the type of binder used. And that this forum is not immune to having its own echo chamber effect.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2017 08:35AM by humphreyblowdart.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 30, 2017 05:41PM
i still don't understand the claim that a water stone is 'faster' than an Norton India or Crystolon. help me out. the abrasive on a Crystolon fine is 45 micron, an 800 grit water is 16 micron. what am i missing in this equation?

scott
[www.etsy.com]
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
January 30, 2017 06:10PM
Scott,
I think Cliff figured it out to be people using stones that needed to be conditioned, and had blunted/clogged/burnished surfaces, while the waterstones shed grit and have exposed fresh abrasives. I think a similar thing happened with slurries, as people thought they sped up cutting when they slow it down in most cases.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
February 01, 2017 08:42PM
Quote
oldsailorsknives
i still don't understand the claim that a water stone is 'faster' than an Norton India or Crystolon. help me out. the abrasive on a Crystolon fine is 45 micron, an 800 grit water is 16 micron. what am i missing in this equation?

First of all, I think people mean that weak-bond stones cut faster than stronger-bond stones of comparable particle size. The Imanishi "Pink Brick", Naniwa Omura, Suehiro 120, and Sigma 120 are all in the same range as the Norton stones and should be the ones to which to compare, not an 800 grit stone.

There are a few things going on, some of which might have to do with perception. It seems as though the convexing effect of the slurry makes it possible to hit the apex without removing as much steel as if you were grinding a flatter bevel. Water stones are also (in general) more porous and more resistant to loading. The slurry and weak bond allow the surface to self-condition, so the abrasive that's exposed stays nearly as sharp as if it was freshly-lapped. As long as the stone doesn't go out of flat in a given session, there is no need to spend time cleaning or conditioning the stone, which is something I sometimes find myself doing with the coarse and fine Crystolon even when I use oil (the medium seems not to load as much). The slurry tends to erode burrs as they form so you also save time by skipping burr minimization. Finally, water stones perform better under low force than do oil stones. If you're using high force then oil stones should be faster.

It's also possible that when people use vague terms like "oil stone" that they mean Arkansas stones. I'm confident (though I can't say for sure) that an 800 grit King removes stock faster than a soft Arkansas.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
February 01, 2017 10:13PM
The forum won't seem to let me edit my last post, but I wanted to add that a Crystolon combo stone and a King 300 are the two on which I most often start shaping and although the King particles should be somewhere between 57 and 68 microns (according to this chart), when using moderate force (I'll try to measure this on a scale later but I would guess 1-5 lbs.), the King and the coarse Crystolon seem to remove steel at comparable rates, which is to say noticeably faster than the fine Crystolon.

Another explanation for water stones seeming faster could be improper use of oil stones. A lot of people use them dry or with plain water and never lap the surface. The size of the bevel matters, too, since water stones are the preferred choice for Japanese knives. Japanese-style single-bevel knives are usually sharpened without a secondary (macro)bevel, and will skip over an oil stone unless heavy force is applied. Even the double-beveled knives often have wide secondary bevels and large contact areas.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
February 03, 2017 04:06AM
This might be an interesting stone for comparison. Both sides are silicon carbide but the 220 grit uses green while the 120 side uses the black type.
Re: Kotobuki King 250/1000 water stone
February 03, 2017 04:38PM
HBD,
Nice! You seem to be good at finding great stones on Amazon....All I find is the inexpensive Chinese waterstones and maybe a few Kings or Naniwa SS's. smileys with beer

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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