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King stone users

Posted by nattypringles 
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King stone users
January 10, 2017 12:03AM
Which specific 1K King stone is being reommended here as a prep? There are multiple variants available.

And by a muddy slurry do you mean this?
[youtu.be]

or

that



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2017 12:04AM by nattypringles.
Re: King stone users
January 10, 2017 04:19AM
Quote
nattypringles
Which specific 1K King stone is being reommended here as a prep? There are multiple variants available.

I have the classic/original (Lee Valley).

Quote


And by a muddy slurry do you mean this?
[youtu.be]

Yes.

Quote

or

that

No, Carter flushes too often if you are looking to get the effect of the slurry on the apex.

(that isn't what he is trying to do in that time stamp however)
Re: King stone users
January 10, 2017 09:11AM
For clarification, this level of slurry won't provide the burr minimalization you talk of? (The beginning before the user flushes the stone)

video

This is the stone that murray uses (king deluxe)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2017 09:20AM by nattypringles.
Re: King stone users
January 16, 2017 04:03PM
It depends on the knife.

When you grind to the apex, depending on how much force you have applied, the size of the grit, and the nature of the steel; the apex can be left in a very ragged state. The greater the slurry the fast it will remediate that. A light slurry will remove a light burr, a heavy one is needed if the apex was really torn up by a coarse grit with a lot of force.

The King I have gets thicker than the one in the video very fast so I never have to think about it. If I don't rise it then it throws off grit very rapidly even under low force. This is why it can readily cut any steel, even things like 10V. However it is quite old (as in decades) so the new ones might have a stronger bond.
Re: King stone users
January 16, 2017 08:09PM
I have a few of the new 1K stones, (K40, K80, 1k King Deluxe Stone) and they all are muddy, and exhibit the benefits of burr formation reduction .

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: King stone users
January 22, 2017 05:46PM
Quote
CliffStamp
It depends on the knife.

When you grind to the apex, depending on how much force you have applied, the size of the grit, and the nature of the steel; the apex can be left in a very ragged state. The greater the slurry the fast it will remediate that. A light slurry will remove a light burr, a heavy one is needed if the apex was really torn up by a coarse grit with a lot of force.

The King I have gets thicker than the one in the video very fast so I never have to think about it. If I don't rise it then it throws off grit very rapidly even under low force. This is why it can readily cut any steel, even things like 10V. However it is quite old (as in decades) so the new ones might have a stronger bond.

That clarifies, thanks

Quote
jasontone20
I have a few of the new 1K stones, (K40, K80, 1k King Deluxe Stone) and they all are muddy, and exhibit the benefits of burr formation reduction .

How muddy? The stone in the last vid also clogged. What about yours?
Re: King stone users
January 22, 2017 06:20PM
nattypringles:
If you are talking about this video:
[www.youtube.com]
The stone you can see has generated a large amount of slurry, once he formed one with the slurry stone, it just kept creating slurry, and the slurry prevented the quick formation of a burr. Once he rinsing the stone, he didn't use the slurry stone to raise a slurry, and didn't use enough pressure one the stone to have the stone form a new, thick slurry, that's why you had the loading. That is exactly how the stone behaves in my experience.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: King stone users
January 29, 2017 03:33PM
Can you not delete posts on this forum? I meant to respond to another thread but had too many tabs open.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2017 03:39PM by humphreyblowdart.
Re: King stone users
January 30, 2017 02:09AM
Quote
jasonstone20
nattypringles:
If you are talking about this video:
[www.youtube.com]
The stone you can see has generated a large amount of slurry, once he formed one with the slurry stone, it just kept creating slurry, and the slurry prevented the quick formation of a burr. Once he rinsing the stone, he didn't use the slurry stone to raise a slurry, and didn't use enough pressure one the stone to have the stone form a new, thick slurry, that's why you had the loading. That is exactly how the stone behaves in my experience.

How much pressure are you applying for the abrasive to release? So far the king deluxe seems to behave differently from the one cliff has,
Re: King stone users
January 30, 2017 02:31AM
2lb of pressure and the stone gets muddy. Why do you think the King Deluxe is behaving different than Cliff's stone? The King 1k is muddy, Cliff's King 1k is muddy, I don't see anything notable.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: King stone users
February 01, 2017 10:17PM
For me, the hard part of using a King stone is preventing it from becoming too muddy—the slurry will tend to form whether you want it or not. You can always just drag a corner of the spine along the stone if you want instant gratification or see the surface loading, but that tends cause chipping at the edges.
Re: King stone users
May 01, 2017 01:35AM
Quote
jasonstone20
2lb of pressure and the stone gets muddy. Why do you think the King Deluxe is behaving different than Cliff's stone? The King 1k is muddy, Cliff's King 1k is muddy, I don't see anything notable.

I don't understand what you mean. You don't feel there's a difference when Cliff says his stone is muddier than the one in this vid
Quote
nattypringles
For clarification, this level of slurry won't provide the burr minimalization you talk of? (The beginning before the user flushes the stone)

video

This is the stone that murray uses (king deluxe)
Quote
CliffStamp
It depends on the knife.

When you grind to the apex, depending on how much force you have applied, the size of the grit, and the nature of the steel; the apex can be left in a very ragged state. The greater the slurry the fast it will remediate that. A light slurry will remove a light burr, a heavy one is needed if the apex was really torn up by a coarse grit with a lot of force.

The King I have gets thicker than the one in the video very fast so I never have to think about it. If I don't rise it then it throws off grit very rapidly even under low force. This is why it can readily cut any steel, even things like 10V. However it is quite old (as in decades) so the new ones might have a stronger bond.

Here's another visual reference
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
nattypringles
Which specific 1K King stone is being reommended here as a prep? There are multiple variants available.

I have the classic/original (Lee Valley).

Quote


And by a muddy slurry do you mean this?
[youtu.be]

Yes.

Quote

or

that

No, Carter flushes too often if you are looking to get the effect of the slurry on the apex.

(that isn't what he is trying to do in that time stamp however)

Clearly thicker than the one in the first vid. Also how much pressure exactly? 2lbs on how much surface area?
Re: King stone users
May 01, 2017 02:29AM
No, I don't, but there could be. I just don't think it makes that much of a difference. And if there is a difference is most likely is trivial. Also, if you don't use enough pressure than the stone takes a lot longer to form a slurry and it won't be as thick. I have four King 1k stones and they all act pretty much the same, but it depends on the steel, the grind of the knife, and the amount of force applied. In my case 2lb of pressure to start forming the slurry with whatever random knife I chose to sharpen with. I did not measure the surface area, different knives have different sized edge bevels, you adjust the pressure used on the stone until it generates the desired slurry.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: King stone users
May 02, 2017 12:59AM
I believe that kilned whetstones such as the Kings are subject to some variation within batches based on the position within the oven when they are fired. Suehiro advertises that they fire their stones in smaller batches than other manufacturers to try to minimize this variability. I would imagine that, as others have stated above, the pressure/contact area are more significant than stone-to-stone differences.
Re: King stone users
May 02, 2017 01:12AM
They are also other stones that have the desired effect of the slurry reducing the formation of a burr. Cliff has noted this in the Naniwa 400 Super Stone and Naniwa Aotoshi 2k "Green Brick of Joy". I also have seen it in a few stones I own (other than the King 1k's): Suehiro 1k/3k, Steelex/Woodstock (also a Suehiro???) 1k/6k. In the set of Nortons (220/1k, 4k/8k) I have (quarted stones from Whipped Dog) it doesn't seem to be as prevalent.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: King stone users
July 09, 2020 04:10PM
Quote
jasonstone20
They are also other stones that have the desired effect of the slurry reducing the formation of a burr. Cliff has noted this in the Naniwa 400 Super Stone and Naniwa Aotoshi 2k "Green Brick of Joy". I also have seen it in a few stones I own (other than the King 1k's): Suehiro 1k/3k, Steelex/Woodstock (also a Suehiro???) 1k/6k. In the set of Nortons (220/1k, 4k/8k) I have (quarted stones from Whipped Dog) it doesn't seem to be as prevalent.

What Suehiro stone line were you referring to in 1k/3k? I am looking at the Cerax, but I got the impression they do not slurry readily as they come with a natural included.
Re: King stone users
July 09, 2020 04:42PM
YESH,
Not the Cerax line, the inexpensive one, made for Japanese Home Kitchens.
Small one:
[smile.amazon.com]
Large one:
[smile.amazon.com]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: King stone users
July 10, 2020 06:43AM
I can confirm that the linked Suehiro combo stones redily create a slurry with anything I have thrown at them it is practically impossible to not have a big build up of loose abrasive while doing anything with them.

The King 1k of the KDS combo stone can be regarded as a hard minimally muddy stone if this is your point of reference.
Re: King stone users
December 28, 2020 07:33PM
Hi everyone

I am new to this forum (been reading and following for a while but have not yet posted)

My question is regarding preparing the surface of a King Deluxe 1000 (this may be a moot point but I want to do it anyway).

Could I use brown fused aluminium oxide abrasive grain to "clean" (much like a dressing stone and conditioning of oil stones - a few seconds...the stone is already flat) the surface of the King 1000 to prepare it for apexing (yes, I know touchy subject)?

Forget about what it is I want to do with the knife..my question is mostly to Cliff regarding using AlO to prepare the surface as I know if I use AlO to condition a Norton fine India it will essentially dull the AlO in the India...but that is pretty much because the India does not release any abrasive in sharpening/conditioning...but the King 1000 breaks down essentially much easier than a Norton India, would I be dulling the AlO in the King using the AlO I have?

The reason I am using AlO in this case is that it is the finest grit I can get here in South Africa (I have a lot of it) and it would most closely resemble the finish left on the King that a Chosera/Naniwa dressing stone (JIS 600) would. I do have 220 grit SiC but that is more than double the size of the AlO in the King (yes I know that the Chosera/Naniwa 600 dressing stone is still coarser than the King but I can live with that).

My second question is mostly to Cliff:

Why shouldn't I sharpen stainless steel knives (specifically I am referring to very basic kitchen knives here) on a Norton India (AlO) stone? I understand that it has something to do with the bond of the Norton India versus say a King (I believe you can essentially grind any steel on a King 1000 because it releases fresh abrasive so easily). Cliff you have mentioned that to me, however I cannot remember the reason for it and I seem to remember you saying that grinding stainless steel on the Norton Crystolon would be suitable. I do understand that AlO is used to grind stainless steels but I believe this (in this specific case of knife sharpening on stones designed for knife sharpening) is because of a different type of grinding (wheels and industrial grinding applications) compared to sharpening a knife on a stone.

Apologies for the excessive use of parenthesis they will calm downsmiling smiley....I have not interacted on forums before (wrt forum etiquette) and will fall in line quickly and see soon how I am understood in how I convey what I am saying on the forums

Thanks,
Rupert
Re: King stone users
December 29, 2020 04:52PM
Maybe try some SiC Wet/Dry Paper.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: King stone users
December 29, 2020 07:12PM
Thanks Jason.

I thought of doing that. I figured it would work as the King stone is so soft and will just break down. I would be using such light force anyway..nowhere near the full weight of the stone even. If you try doing that on wet/dry SiC paper with a Norton India stone, the surface of the stone just wears smooth..and ofcourse the paper itself too. Only way that MIGHT work is if you use like 40 grit SiC wet/dry or something.
Re: King stone users
December 30, 2020 01:25PM
Quote
Rupert

...but that is pretty much because the India does not release any abrasive in sharpening/conditioning...but the King 1000 breaks down essentially much easier than a Norton India, would I be dulling the AlO in the King using the AlO I have?

There will be contact dulling, and ideally you want to always use a grain to condition a stone which can cut it, BUT, in this case the binder strength is so low I would suspect that it would not be a significant issue. In fact in general I can't see any conditioning being of significant effect because of this very reason, though I have never tested it, I also have never noted a need to condition stones with weak bonds.

Quote

Why shouldn't I sharpen stainless steel knives (specifically I am referring to very basic kitchen knives here) on a Norton India (AlO) stone?

In general I rarely speak in absolutes, I would likely say something like in general I would not sharpen very hard and/or high carbide steels on a Norton India not because the stone can't do it, but just because the stone will wear fast and there is a chance, with very high carbide steels that you could get carbide dulling/tear out and with very hard steels you could get apex fracture. There are other stones which just make it easier to sharpen, so it would just pose challenges in method and add to maintenance times/effort.
Re: King stone users
December 30, 2020 03:12PM
Thank you Cliff

I see what you are saying. The reason I asked about cleaning the King before apexing was because it is easy to see steel left behind from when I am sharpening (slightly greyed). I imagine that doesn't have much of an effect but I wanted to find out anyway. Ofcourse I could just condition both sides and use one side to grind the bevel and then the other side to apex.