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Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex

Posted by CliffStamp 
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
April 01, 2014 12:25PM
Cardboard does vary an extreme amount, this is one of the reasons why there is a lot of odd conclusions being reached about steels because people assume the differences in performance are due to the steel and they could just be the cardboard. I recently had some cardboard which had very hard inclusions in it and they would damage the edge of any knife used to cut it as they acted just like small pieces of rock and would literally just dent and then fracture the edges. This happened immediately with just a few passes.

This of course isn't an insurmountable problem all you do is just repeated it a few times. If you cut up random boxes with two knives and after 3-5 times the behavior is consistent then you have the start of a conclusion. However if you do this in general you will find that the influence of the cardboard type is much greater than the steel type as most cutlery steels are very similar. Cardboard easily varies by 10X, cutlery steels vary by small percentages in most aspects. For example +/- 10 of hardness covers all most all used cutlery steels.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
April 02, 2014 06:47PM
Hmm...






Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
My opinions about Cutlerylover aside, that isn't quick and dirty sharpening. It's sloppy and not a whole lot of time was spent on apexing the edge, but otherwise that is how I sharpen (destressing is first, though).

Quick and dirty for me is high angle with a DMT extra coarse, light pressure on apexing passes. I usually do that if I am sharpening a cheap mtech or elk ridge that just needs and edge and is gonna be destroyed by the end of the night.


This is a much better quick and dirty technique:

video: [www.youtube.com]

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2014 07:23PM by Bugout Bill.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
April 03, 2014 06:42PM
Why does he keep saying it isn't the right way to do it, what is wrong about it?

Notes :

-the sharpness demonstrated at the end should have been achieved off of the first stone
-the stones are so loaded they are burnishing heavily
-there are no notes on when/why grits should be changed (aside from a vague number)
-he appears to polish the entire edge bevel, fairly inefficient

John's video is solid, quick use of micro-bevels .
Cliff: I don't think Cutlerylover actually freehand sharpens, I think he exclusively uses either the wicked edge or the sharpmaker.

As to why he would think it is "wrong", it is because he only sharpens with alternating strokes, and doesn't really know any better.

Another example of this sort of thing:

[www.youtube.com]

-edge is not properly apexed

-finishes on a flexible strop.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2014 09:28PM by Bugout Bill.
Here is my method. Can't remember if I posted this before.

video: [www.youtube.com]

Any critique or recommondations are welcome.

If I want to do a quick and dirty method I would just apply a microbevel with the coarse side of the DMT.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
April 04, 2014 08:56AM
Quote
CliffStamp
Why does he keep saying it isn't the right way to do it, what is wrong about it?

You here this a lot on YT. Someone shows you an example of how they do something. They show you the positive results. Then they say it isn't the right way to do it, or a good way to do it.

Then why are you doing it???

I posted this here because it looks like one part of Cliff's three step sharpening process. Interesting because it is the most time consuming of the three parts.

I think it is "dirty" because the stones are so loaded spinning smiley sticking its tongue out


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
KWB
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
April 07, 2014 06:08AM
Well another person has suffered a cut finger in cliffs sharpening process, (kinda I always have done it this way). I was sharpening the xhp test knife and I was on the spyderco ultra fine and lost my thought process for one second thinking about the edge geometry and found out first hand how lean I ground it. I accidentally got my finger in the way of the stone and the blade slightly went through my finger and nail (luckily I have very strong nails which saved my finger). It only went through about a cm , but surprised me the most is it went in that far as I was only using the weight of the knife. After cleaning the cut up I am kinda proud of myself looking at the cut that the test knife cuts so well. The bad part is my finger keeps bleeding all over the stone so I can't get it as sharp as I would like to before shipping it out.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
April 07, 2014 03:47PM
Quote
KWB
The bad part is my finger keeps bleeding all over the stone

a la Wako... [www.cliffstamp.com]


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
April 07, 2014 04:54PM
As a note, if you are going to do this then if you just glue a block of wood to the underside of the stone and hold onto that it is much safer. But again, I recommend you don't do it like I do. The only reason I do that is because I am sitting in a chair watching a monitor and so I can't lay the stone on anything, I just have to hold on to it.
KWB
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
April 07, 2014 06:18PM
Chum- I think that vid was a bit excessive, he reminds me if the Russian spetnaz.

Cliff- I sit in a chair most of the time watching tv, ironically this has been the first time I've been cut like this.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
November 23, 2014 05:35AM
I use the three step method if time is a factor. But for some reason I can't get an edge to shave with this technique. Am I doing something wrong?
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
November 23, 2014 02:59PM
Quote
jasonstone20
Am I doing something wrong?

I didn't really communicate well what I was trying to say in that video, it really isn't a technique as such. What I would argue is that sharpening should be split into two parts :

-shaping
-setting the apex

and that before you start to grind a small flat on the edge to remove damage, check for consistency of wear, and provide a visual reference for the shaping stage.

In the shaping stage you modify the primary grind, edge angle, rework the tip, etc. make sure the knife has the right cross section and you end with the edge being formed to an apex . Then the next step just uses a micro-bevel to set the apex. Now what most people do is blend all of that together into one big session of grinding which is extremely inefficient because the methods/materials needed for one are not the same as the other.

Think of it this way, imagine if I asked you to make a spoon out of a piece of wood and you had an axe, hook knife and sandpaper. Would you start with the sandpaper and try to grind out the basic shape? See that is silly, everyone knows you start with the axe to get the basic shape, then proceed with the hook knife and then if necessary use the sandpaper. All I am saying is that sharpening is the same thing, seperate it out into a couple of stages.

Now as you get the basics down you might split it up a bit more, I normally do something like this :

-heavy shaping as in regrinding a tip, flattening an edge
-moderate shaping, thinning an edge
-light shaping, lowering an edge bevel
-minor shaping, removing chips/rolls from the edge

The reason why these are different is that ideally different stones do them best. However these are small changes/optimizations. For example the coarse India stone has a very strong binder and works very well in regrinding a tip as it well resists very high pressure. The TASK works very well on flattening a primary grind and thinning an edge as it works better with lower pressure. If you swap the two stones you can still do it but you will have slower grinding on the India and much more wear on the TASK.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
November 23, 2014 07:13PM
Gotcha.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
January 03, 2015 02:17AM
In response to me2:
I'm a 21 year old partially-shaved ape with a stable income, moral values, and an IQ of approximately 120. But I'm also from Wisconsin (most likely makes me an exception to the rule)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2015 02:19AM by Ryan Nafe.
me2
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
January 03, 2015 02:36AM
Nope, the stable income and moral values makes you the exception. The IQ is not a factor from what I've seen. If anything, smarter shaved apes are harder to spot and can think of ways to do more damage or fling poo further with less effort.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
January 03, 2015 05:19AM
Ahh, you've seen through my ruse.. Crafty..
me2
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
January 03, 2015 02:37PM
It's a gift that comes with a daughter.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
January 05, 2015 02:01AM
Cliff, actually I just came across something trying the three step method again, that reminded me of the exact problem I was having with the three step method. First, I wasn't correct when I said that I could get knives to shave with the method, I can, it is just scrape shaving. In fact I came up with a 5-grade system for shaving like how the HHT test has 5 degrees.

Anyway, one of the issues I have always had between burr sharpening and non-burr sharpening, is with burr sharpening I know when to stop and move to the next step. With non-burr sharpening, knowing when to move to the next step is not only nuanaced, but critical. The last time I tried it I realized that you can use the change in the feel of the blade on the stone right before you apex or get a burr. My problem in with varying stones and steels, how do you know not to got to far?
The edge not reflecting light is to much of a wide range for me to gauge where I am.

I have had knives that I sharpened using the three step method that would slice and push cut phone book paper, but only scrape shave.

So should I just keep practicing it? I have been using the 3 step method for years, and before I improved my burr sharpening skills, this is how I sharpened my knifes, but I could and still can't get passed scrape shaving.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
January 05, 2015 02:26AM
Cliff-
Ok, I just tried the non-burr sharpening for my daily sharpening exercise, where I am more familiar with the blade and the stone, and I got the knife hair popping sharp using the 3-step method!
So I think I figured it out, it is little like straight razor sharpening in a sense. Don't worry about my previous post. Thank you!
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
January 05, 2015 02:44AM
Quote
jasonstone20
...
The edge not reflecting light is to much of a wide range for me to gauge where I am.

One of the things to realize before you think I am much better at sharpening than I actually am, is that in those videos I am showing a knife I have sharpened likely dozens of times. This experiences means I know the pass counts from memory of how much grinding I need.

When the apex no longer reflects light then I know, as I have measured it that it has to be less than 20 microns thick. This means very little work is needed to actually make the apex form. Even a slow grinding stone like the Naniwa Aotoshi 2000 will quickly form the apex completely when it is that close and that muddy stone keeps a burr from forming.

I just did some edge retention work with a k390/64 HRC on cardboard with an x-coarse DMT edge. After the run was over the x-coarse DMT bevel was still there and there was very little, if any light reflecting from the apex. With just 100 pps with the Naniwa Aotoshi, based on previous experience I expect all traces of the micro-bevel to be removed without forming a burr and when I check under magnification I find that is true.

The great thing about that stone is lets say I am watching some YT lecture which is very interesting and I stop counting but keep grinding and I end up doing 200 pps. This stone won't form a burr, it just grinds a little more steel and I lose maybe a couple of microns from the edge width unnecessarily.
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
January 05, 2015 04:16AM
Thank you for the response.
That was exactly my thought process, and why I tried it on a stone and a blade that I was more familar with, so, from experience, I could tell where I was during the sharpening process, and I had success as if I had used the burr sharpening technique.
Cliff, Thanks for all the help that I've gotten from you . Please help again. I can't wrap my head around the idea of how you sharpen a recurve on a bench stone?
Do you simply just utilize the stone at an angle near the edge of the stone? I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure it out.

- Mitch
Re: Basic three step knife sharpening : destress the edge + shaping + finishing the apex
February 20, 2015 07:15PM
The simplest way is use a very narrow stone. If you use a bench stone, just rotate the blade to keep the edge perpendicular.
Thank you, Cliff. I hope that all is well with you.

- Mitch
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